Armour & weapon designs (part V).

[Nonek]

I doubt there'd have been many spoiled nobleman at that time, they'd have had to keep their hand in as military service was a part of feudal obligation, and generally a wise precaution in the cut-throat world of medieval politics. Add to that trial by combat was a legitimate method of solving judicial cases, and it would seem to be extremely unwise to let oneself be untrained in battle.

 

Certainly throughout modern history the brunt of warfare in English history has taken the highest toll on the gentry, though that was also because if one couldn't afford a commision, then courageous actions were a legitimate alternative.

 

That said I imagine that kings who are renowned as peaceful and saintly might have worn such locks, as they had strong right hands such as William Marshall to stand at their side.

[Sheikh]

I like the vaegir style from M&B:

 

I think in this thread we have seen a fair bit of armor from cultures other than medieval europe and it would be really cool if they made appearance in PoE. Especially lamellar and scale types of armor from just east and south of europe.

 

Additionally, attempts at minimizing heaviness while providing decent protection would also be cool and would fit the age of early gunpowder usage. Such as breastplate and the stuff pikemen and roundshiers wore. And helmets that were obviously later by design than medieval, but only covered the head, not the whole face and neck:

Or:

This type of 17th century stuff mixed in with more traditional fantasy fare would be really cool.

[Karranthain]

I think in this thread we have seen a fair bit of armor from cultures other than medieval europe and it would be really cool if they made appearance in PoE. Especially lamellar and scale types of armor from just east and south of europe.

 

Here's hoping!

 

 

Morions are definitely cool looking helmets - and would fit right in the world of PE.

 

Speaking of open face variants, here's another example:

 

Edited April 26, 2014 by Karranthain

[quest1on]

 

 

I have to wonder if hair that long sometimes gets caught up in the armor. Perhaps plate isn't so bad, but about chain?

 

I figure for practicality's sake, someone with long hair would probably tie/braid it (just something to keep it from getting snagged in nooks and crannies), or at least wear some cloth cap/wrap thing under the helmet (if they're wearing a helmet).

I'm curious how this was handled, though, in actual history/record.

 

Probably shorn. Heat in a helmet is allready quite stifling with the arming cap or coif and that's without extra hair, add to that the lice and filth in a battle camp, the fact that bathing wasn't a fashionable thing and no sane opponent would look at long hair as anything but a useful handhold. I think most sensible knights would favour something like the Roundhead or Norman bowl haircut for these reasons.

Generally, shorter hairstyles were prefered amongst soldiers, but there were groups that wore longer hair for various reasons. Vikings braided their hair in elaborate way to express their status and Sikhs wore theirs wraped around the head like a turban underneath the turban, and British soldiers remarked in 18/19th centuries that it was dificult to cut through it with a military sabre.

[Sheikh]

 

 

 

I have to wonder if hair that long sometimes gets caught up in the armor. Perhaps plate isn't so bad, but about chain?

I figure for practicality's sake, someone with long hair would probably tie/braid it (just something to keep it from getting snagged in nooks and crannies), or at least wear some cloth cap/wrap thing under the helmet (if they're wearing a helmet).

I'm curious how this was handled, though, in actual history/record.

 

Probably shorn. Heat in a helmet is allready quite stifling with the arming cap or coif and that's without extra hair, add to that the lice and filth in a battle camp, the fact that bathing wasn't a fashionable thing and no sane opponent would look at long hair as anything but a useful handhold. I think most sensible knights would favour something like the Roundhead or Norman bowl haircut for these reasons.

Generally, shorter hairstyles were prefered amongst soldiers, but there were groups that wore longer hair for various reasons. Vikings braided their hair in elaborate way to express their status and Sikhs wore theirs wraped around the head like a turban underneath the turban, and British soldiers remarked in 18/19th centuries that it was dificult to cut through it with a military sabre.

 

Interestingly none of the examples you gave wore helmets.

[Suburban-Fox]

I'd be very surprised if a medieval woman would cut he hair that short. If simply wearing trousers was a crime, what would people think of having man-hair? At least clothing can be changed as and when required ("Oh crap, the vicar is coming! Quick, pass me my dress!"), but if you cut hair off, you're going to have trouble explaining that one.

 

Of course, that was a world in which women generally don't fight (there are exceptions but in medieval Europe it was generally considered wrong). Fantasy world might be different, and might not have the same rules, and might be perfectly okay with woman dressing as men and sporting a man's haircut. However, two things to bear in mind:

 

1) you're not going to be wearing helmets and fighting 100% of the time. Sometimes you want to look pretty - or at least presentable. One should not underestimate human vanity, and unless you want people to see you as a pure soldier and nothing else, you're not necessarily going to have a soldier's haircut. Some people might prefer to make adjustments for their military kit than to have a soldier's look 100% of the time.

 

2) different cultures might take different attitudes to this. Elves, for example, were traditionally pictured with long hair, so assuming PoE elves will follow the same style, it's likely that elves would regard long hair as a mark of status, and would be against cutting it, preferring to braid it up and make helmets that could be worn over it than to expect everybody to walk around with a US Marine buzzcut. Dwarves might be different (and speaking of dwarves, wouldn't long beards suffer from the same problem as long hair?).

 

I suppose it depends on how important your non-military appearance is, within the game world. Most people generally want to be beautiful/handsome, apart from the types who want to be seen as hard-as-nails.

[Nonek]

 

Vikings braided their hair in elaborate way to express their status.

 

 

I had not heard of this, I was aware of the Viking warrior class' vanity, with the importance they placed on fine clothing, armrings and other jewellery and decorated combs for their hair, but I hadn't read of braiding being a cultural element amongst them. Most illuminating. One imagines though that even these stout fellows who bathed more regularly than Christian men, were sometimes irritated by their long locks. After all their sweat stained and lice infested gambesons must have been quite odorous on the campaign trail, and their hair similarly filthy and infested compared to our modern day cleanliness. I imagine that with the Aventail helm they often wore it might become frequently caught as well, though the far more common basinet might benefit from the padding.

 

Edit: For a full visored helm however i'd still say that extra heat is a consideration, during the midst of combat when ones breathing is frantic and desperate heat will of course be a consideration, and it is well known that medieval knights would keep their visors up until the very moment of combat for this and vision reasons. Add long hair under the arming cap, coif and helm itself and I imagine that it becomes fairly stifling. Of course vanity must still be rightfully considered though.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Nonek

[Karranthain]

Since we've been mostly discussing helmets as of late, here are some more interesting examples (with obligatory PLUMES):

 

 

 

 

Wish we'd see more PE screens showcasing equipment already!

[Jarmo]

Of this long hair discussion, take this with a grain of salt because I don't remember where I read or heard it or what culture or time period it's of, and basically, because it's me saying.

 

But supposedly there was this culture/helmet style where you had to have long hair, because the hair goes through a hole in the helmet and then is tied into a top knot. So the long hair is the helmet attachment system (or an extra help anyway). Must have been painful or uncomfortable, but a warrior doesn't cry.

If I had to guess, I'd say it was either a japanese or a mongol thing.

[Woldan]

 

Wish we'd see more PE screens showcasing equipment already!

I call BS on that guy with the helmet and the crossbow, there is a reason why archers and crossbowmen had open-face helmets. Try it yourself, wear a motorcycle helmet and try hitting a target with a crossbow.

 

(Reminds me of me trying to shoot a rifle while wearing a gas mask, its extremely hard. I wonder how those guys in WWI did it.- )

Edited April 29, 2014 by Woldan

[Karranthain]

And here we go with first equipment renders! I particularly like the tasteful gradual increases in ornamentation and level of protection offered. Definitely liking what I'm seeing! Additional thumbs up for the inclusion of black plate armour!

 

SCALE ARMOUR

 

 

PLATE ARMOUR

 

Edited April 30, 2014 by Karranthain

[PrimeJunta]

Yeah, gotta love that plate.

 

Although... where's the codpiece? I was promised a CODPIECE, damnit!

[Sarex]

I hope those are the lower tears of armor, I would like some fantasy flare to them like they had in BG2.

[Sheikh]

So the first plate is renaissance esque, second late medieval and third definitely has some fantasy elements. I like them in descending order.

 

The scale is not bad, the only problem I see is the "skirt" so to say is too "stiff" and doesn't adhere to the body enough. Makes it slightly unrealistic looking.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Sheikh

[Karranthain]

I hope those are the lower tears of armor, I would like some fantasy flare to them like they had in BG2.

 

If by "fantasy flare" you mean spikes and giant shoulderpads then I sure as hell hope not

[Suburban-Fox]

I hope there aren't "low tiers" and "high tiers" of armour, in the way there traditionally are...I hope armour remains fairly constant. I wouldn't mind if there was varying quality harnesses, but I wouldn't want the whole "+X of everything each chapter" style of the NWN games. Changing armour should be rare, not something that happens frequently, so a basic set of armour should last you for a while before you find a better one.

 

Baldur's Gate 1 didn't really have "tiers" as such...just the different types, a +1 type, some of them had +2 types, and some had other enchantments. However, their appearance was very static - the only thing that really changed is the colour.

 

Of course, people expect to be able to upgrade kit, so newer, better armour should exist, but it should be limited to things like:

 

A cheap, crappy type that you start with (and probably replace as soon as you can)

A normal, average quality type

A very good, well made, good quality type made by a master armourer

A type made out of *insert exotic fantasy material* that is either lighter or tougher

A type that has an enchantment added to it

 

Of the plate armours, the biggest problem I can see with the gold filigreed harness is the armpits. There wouldn't be plates there because they need to flex and bend. Most knights would wear mail underneath to protect those parts - you could even buy special arming jacks with strips of mail sewn into where the gaps in the plates would be, to save you having to wear a hauberk as well. The hip guards should also be attached to the cuirass, and the knee guards should really be attached to the leg guards on the second harness. Also, I'd like to see a buckle on the cuirass, connecting the breastplate and backplate together, because the cuirass isn't a single garment that slips over your head like a jumper. A buckle on the arm guards would be good too, and something to hold the pauldrons on (late-medieval pauldrons were tied to the jack with pauldron points). Oh, and please add a bevoir! (unless it's part of the helmet) Other than those minor details...that's looking good!

 

The scale coat looks good, but could do with either being bigger, or - probably better - having some kind of ties, because as it stands, you'll struggle to get into (and out of) that. Scale isn't like mail - it's not as flexible, so you can't easily lift a scale coat over your head and wriggle out of it like you can with mail, especially when it's as tight fitting as it is in that picture. Add a row of ties down the front, however, making it more like a coat, and that would work better, I think.

 

eta: Oh yeah, the gauntlets should be 'lobstered' too...but I guess you won't really be able to see that when it's in game anyway.

 

One more thing (I'll stop soon I promise! :D ) - scale and mail shouldn't really have shoulder guards, because...well, they're not needed. The garment itself should cover the shoulders, so adding extra protection to just the shoulders seems...well, silly. Also, what's keeping those shoulder guards attached to the first scale coat?

Edited April 30, 2014 by Suburban-Fox

[Lephys]

One more thing (I'll stop soon I promise! :D ) - scale and mail shouldn't really have shoulder guards, because...well, they're not needed. The garment itself should cover the shoulders, so adding extra protection to just the shoulders seems...well, silly. Also, what's keeping those shoulder guards attached to the first scale coat?

It looks like they might be attached, underneath, to the leather "collar" portion? Just for what it's worth. I think your critique is quite fair, overall.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Lephys

[Mor]

I hope those are the lower tears of armor, I would like some fantasy flare to them like they had in BG2.

I don't know if I would call it lower tear armor, maybe common armor verity that we encounter through out our adventures? personally, I wouldn't mind using those sets, and das boots    

 

With said we already know that there will be unique sets of armor and at least one sets unique to a certain "faction" ( bronze Plate armor to animat constructs), so you would likely get your wish for more fantasy flare to your armor selection.

 

Btw, if they provide 3 quality levels for each of the base armor types, then not even counting the unique sets, visually they have overshot bg2 selection which iirc was very limited, mostly differentiated through description images.

 

here the 5? base types:

 

Plus if they make this aspect of the game easily acceable to moders, you'd see far more ..

Edited April 30, 2014 by Mor

[Lephys]

^ You forgot the 6th type: SHIELD ARMOR! The chest plate is a shield, attached to a back-shield. Then, there are small shield pauldrons, with shield boots and leggings to match, and shield vambraces.

[Suburban-Fox]

That would be funny...a man dressed head to toe in shields! Maybe bucklers can form the elbow and knee guards.  

 

Speaking of shields, this probably won't happen, but I'd like to see a game where the disadvantages of big shields are properly represented. In the dark ages, Saxon footmen tended to prefer round shields because kite shields got in the way of your legs and hampered footwork, so they were generally used on horseback (although I don't think they generally had round shields in later periods so maybe it was superceded by the heater shield).

 

In D&D, though, there is no reason not to use the biggest shield you can afford/use, because using a smaller shield is simply unnecessarily limiting your defence for the sake of...well, nothing. Same with armour, actually...if you're a non-stealth character, there is no reason not to wear full plate as soon as you can afford it. So I'd like to see bigger shields, and heavier armours, slow you down a bit, or make certain things more difficult. Ideally, I'd like every type of armour/defensive item to have its place, and be ideal for use by certain types of characters. Light armoured skirmishers should have speed and agility on their side, with minimal defences (hoods, arming caps or open faced helmets to allow for visibility, and maybe a buckler at most), while heavy tank types should have high protection but sacrifice mobility, and probably visibility (visored sallets/armets and the like), and medium fighter types (i.e. fighters who still want a bit of mobility) should be faster and with better visibility but with slightly less protection (smaller heater shields and lighter helmets like barbutes).

 

Finally, those look good, but...no brigandine??

[Karranthain]

With said we already know that there will be unique sets of armor and at least one sets unique to a certain "faction" ( bronze Plate armor to animat constructs), so you would likely get your wish for more fantasy flare to your armor selection.

 

I'm hoping that cultural variants will be present in the game, perhaps offering slightly different boni? Let's take plate armour, for an example:

 

Dyrwood Plate:

 

 

Aedyran Plate:

 

 

Readceras Plate:

 

 

All of these share the same basic function but are strikingly different visually. These armours also tell a story about their respective cultures (other civilizations' influences etc.).

Moreover, such approach allows for a vast amount of various designs in the same subtype.

 

They could even be handled differently mechanically, offering the players interesting choices (e.g. Readceras plate would be much more cumbersome but also far more protective than the other variants).

 

More examples in this topic.

[Suburban-Fox]

That first one is a high elf - White Lions of Chrace if I'm not mistaken. Some of the Warhammer stuff looks quite good, I think.

 

Second one...17c Polish hussar?

[Karranthain]

That first one is a high elf - White Lions of Chrace if I'm not mistaken. Some of the Warhammer stuff looks quite good, I think.

 

Second one...17c Polish hussar?

 

Indeed. And the third one's a Knight of the Blazing Sun, also from Warhammer (and definitely agreed - there's a lot of cool, historically inspired stuff in Warhammer).

Edited May 1, 2014 by Karranthain

[Labadal]

These are regular armor pices shown in the update. I'm sure the unique armors in the game will look more fantastical.

[Karranthain]

These are regular armor pices shown in the update. I'm sure the unique armors in the game will look more fantastical.

 

How about this helmet?