Body Types and video games

[Woldan]

Personally I don't find pixels attractive no matter what their design

 

So you don't find a digital art picture of a nude woman sexy?   Well, I certainly do. 

[Orogun01]

I have been brewing a thought, what if the feminist argument over the representation of fictional females began not due to actual concern but just out of novelty? Most trends seem to follow the modernist ideal of "make it new", so instead of joining their effort towards an already existing noteworthy feminist cause this new group seeking notoriety made an entirely new one and put forth an otherwise banal argument with a sense of urgency and fatalism. 
Can anyone honestly tell me how pixelated breast size is hurting the real world without using a maybe, a perhaps, or just speculation?

It's not that I don't agree with their premises, but their agenda seems clear and it has nothing to do with the betterment of games unfortunately.

[Mamoulian War]

 

Also, posting about this kind of thing here isn't going to affect or change much.

 

I don't know Malc if I can get you to agree with my perspective and embrace various social issues that would be a huge victory. As I mentioned before sometimes its just about giving someone a different perspective, so now next time you buy a game maybe you buy a game a game that doesn't objectify women...small steps Malc ...small steps...."Rome wasn't built in a day"

 

 

 

Bruce, the biggest problem is, that we are multicultural bunch. What is considered as objectification in one country is considered as completely normal and in some cases even endorsed by women/minorities... Sorry to say that, but I really do not consider and never will consider bigger boobs in a game/movie/comic as an objectification... believe it or not, I have some female friends with bigger boobs than Lara Croft in Tomb Raider 2... natural boobs, just so you know :D

 

Looking for me on big or small cups in an entertainment media does not affect my thinking about women at all, because for a girlfriend I always pick a girl with smaller cups. I just find smallcupped girls more attractive and not even 200 hours long hungarian porn session can change my preferences on boob/ass/intelectual properties of women or how I respect and treat women... And a game can not change that as well... I play games because they are not real, and I do not have problem nor am I troubled if someone uses sometimes politically incorrect jokes...

 

Because I am from Slovakia, a country which joined EU only few years ago, lot of people in online guilds which I was part of, made jokes about me being from third world country... I was having fun with that, and most of the time, I joined the fun to add some more funny stories from my country to spice up the fun...

 

It really looks to me last few years, that people nowadays are doing everything to make comedy/parody/jokes as something outrageous, and should be avoided in modern society at all costs...

[Gfted1]

Can anyone honestly tell me how pixelated breast size is hurting the real world without using a maybe, a perhaps, or just speculation?

My take on this is that its just the natural evolution of the old "entertainment medium X is harming our youth". Back in the 60's / 70's rock-n-roll or Elvis the Pelvis was scandalous, in the 80's / 90's claims that playing D&D could make you "evil", then through the 90's / 2000's there was that lawyer advocating that violent games could make you violent, now we see claims of over-sexualization makes people feel bad / inferior. Im not saying any of these are true or false, just that there seems to be a trend.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Also, posting about this kind of thing here isn't going to affect or change much.

 

I don't know Malc if I can get you to agree with my perspective and embrace various social issues that would be a huge victory. As I mentioned before sometimes its just about giving someone a different perspective, so now next time you buy a game maybe you buy a game a game that doesn't objectify women...small steps Malc ...small steps...."Rome wasn't built in a day"

 

 

 

Bruce, the biggest problem is, that we are multicultural bunch. What is considered as objectification in one country is considered as completely normal and in some cases even endorsed by women/minorities... Sorry to say that, but I really do not consider and never will consider bigger boobs in a game/movie/comic as an objectification... believe it or not, I have some female friends with bigger boobs than Lara Croft in Tomb Raider 2... natural boobs, just so you know :D

 

Looking for me on big or small cups in an entertainment media does not affect my thinking about women at all, because for a girlfriend I always pick a girl with smaller cups. I just find smallcupped girls more attractive and not even 200 hours long hungarian porn session can change my preferences on boob/ass/intelectual properties of women or how I respect and treat women... And a game can not change that as well... I play games because they are not real, and I do not have problem nor am I troubled if someone uses sometimes politically incorrect jokes...

 

Because I am from Slovakia, a country which joined EU only few years ago, lot of people in online guilds which I was part of, made jokes about me being from third world country... I was having fun with that, and most of the time, I joined the fun to add some more funny stories from my country to spice up the fun...

 

It really looks to me last few years, that people nowadays are doing everything to make comedy/parody/jokes as something outrageous, and should be avoided in modern society at all costs...

 

 

Thanks for explaining your position on this topic, you make some good points as usual

 

I would like to respond but I can only do this tomorrow

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

 

Also, posting about this kind of thing here isn't going to affect or change much.

 

I don't know Malc if I can get you to agree with my perspective and embrace various social issues that would be a huge victory. As I mentioned before sometimes its just about giving someone a different perspective, so now next time you buy a game maybe you buy a game a game that doesn't objectify women...small steps Malc ...small steps...."Rome wasn't built in a day"

 

 

 

Bruce, the biggest problem is, that we are multicultural bunch. What is considered as objectification in one country is considered as completely normal and in some cases even endorsed by women/minorities... Sorry to say that, but I really do not consider and never will consider bigger boobs in a game/movie/comic as an objectification... believe it or not, I have some female friends with bigger boobs than Lara Croft in Tomb Raider 2... natural boobs, just so you know :D

 

Looking for me on big or small cups in an entertainment media does not affect my thinking about women at all, because for a girlfriend I always pick a girl with smaller cups. I just find smallcupped girls more attractive and not even 200 hours long hungarian porn session can change my preferences on boob/ass/intelectual properties of women or how I respect and treat women... And a game can not change that as well... I play games because they are not real, and I do not have problem nor am I troubled if someone uses sometimes politically incorrect jokes...

 

Because I am from Slovakia, a country which joined EU only few years ago, lot of people in online guilds which I was part of, made jokes about me being from third world country... I was having fun with that, and most of the time, I joined the fun to add some more funny stories from my country to spice up the fun...

 

It really looks to me last few years, that people nowadays are doing everything to make comedy/parody/jokes as something outrageous, and should be avoided in modern society at all costs...

 

 

Thanks for explaining your position on this topic, you make some good points as usual

 

I would like to respond but I can only do this tomorrow

 

 

Sure no worries looking forward to it.

 

I like this board, because man can have meaningful and intelligent discussion here, even with people with opposite view on some topics (of course not counting discussion about NWN with Volo, that case is lost ). It's hard to find internet boards with that attitude...

 

And one more thing I forgot to add to my previous post, or more like, it sparkled in my mind at later hour

 

For some reason, I really do not know why, but in real life I feel outraged, when some lady acts as true damsel in distress. But in games, I do not mind that concept at all. I have enjoyed few games where you have to save the "girl" from harm... In real life... I would probably not touch woman acting like damsel in distress even by 10' pole...

 

And this is just one another example how different I see virtual worlds from the real one, in which I spent most of my daily life

[Orogun01]

Suspension of disbelief in games is a strange thing leading to that weird game logic where we give some things a pass because it is a game. It becomes kind of funny when you apply real world logic too, I kind of enjoy awkwardzombie comics due to that sensibility.

[Nonek]

 

Personally I don't find pixels attractive no matter what their design

 

So you don't find a digital art picture of a nude woman sexy?   Well, I certainly do. 

 

 

They just don't really do anything for me Woldan, photography is a different matter, but the feminine form in video games never stirs my libido for some reason. It's probably as Orogun says and my suspension of disbelief is somewhat too tightly reined in, all I know is that I look at say the jiggle physics of Dead or Alive or the very fine graphics of Triss in the Witcher 2 and am not interested in the slightest. I think it's my problem here though, and one of the reasons why I like games that have a logical narrative, a living world and a somewhat more restrained style of art design, I find them more easily accessible due to their verisimillitude.

 

Edit: Totally agree with you Mamoulian War, it's very refreshing to have a discussion without the usual outrage and vitriol that occur on the web, this is one of the reasons I like these forums. You can have a conversation without anyone being insulted and storming off in a tiff and under a cloud of profanities.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Nonek

[Woldan]

They just don't really do anything for me Woldan, photography is a different matter, but the feminine form in video games never stirs my libido for some reason.

Guess its a imagination-thing, if I would play games as they were without using my rather vivid fantasy to add truckload of extra content to the story, characters and world to make it more interesting and alive ALL games would feel stale and extremely non-immersible. (I'm talking about games in general here, not about libido   )

 

Its like reading a good novel with your imagination and fantasy turned off, its impossible to enjoy a good book that way, to get sucked into the story and to ''live'' it. It would feel like reading an article in the newspaper. 

 

 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Also, posting about this kind of thing here isn't going to affect or change much.

 

I don't know Malc if I can get you to agree with my perspective and embrace various social issues that would be a huge victory. As I mentioned before sometimes its just about giving someone a different perspective, so now next time you buy a game maybe you buy a game a game that doesn't objectify women...small steps Malc ...small steps...."Rome wasn't built in a day"

 

 

 

Bruce, the biggest problem is, that we are multicultural bunch. What is considered as objectification in one country is considered as completely normal and in some cases even endorsed by women/minorities... Sorry to say that, but I really do not consider and never will consider bigger boobs in a game/movie/comic as an objectification... believe it or not, I have some female friends with bigger boobs than Lara Croft in Tomb Raider 2... natural boobs, just so you know :D

 

Looking for me on big or small cups in an entertainment media does not affect my thinking about women at all, because for a girlfriend I always pick a girl with smaller cups. I just find smallcupped girls more attractive and not even 200 hours long hungarian porn session can change my preferences on boob/ass/intelectual properties of women or how I respect and treat women... And a game can not change that as well... I play games because they are not real, and I do not have problem nor am I troubled if someone uses sometimes politically incorrect jokes...

 

Because I am from Slovakia, a country which joined EU only few years ago, lot of people in online guilds which I was part of, made jokes about me being from third world country... I was having fun with that, and most of the time, I joined the fun to add some more funny stories from my country to spice up the fun...

 

It really looks to me last few years, that people nowadays are doing everything to make comedy/parody/jokes as something outrageous, and should be avoided in modern society at all costs...

 

 

Thanks for explaining your position on this topic, you make some good points as usual

 

I would like to respond but I can only do this tomorrow

 

 

Sure no worries looking forward to it.

 

I like this board, because man can have meaningful and intelligent discussion here, even with people with opposite view on some topics (of course not counting discussion about NWN with Volo, that case is lost ). It's hard to find internet boards with that attitude...

 

And one more thing I forgot to add to my previous post, or more like, it sparkled in my mind at later hour

 

For some reason, I really do not know why, but in real life I feel outraged, when some lady acts as true damsel in distress. But in games, I do not mind that concept at all. I have enjoyed few games where you have to save the "girl" from harm... In real life... I would probably not touch woman acting like damsel in distress even by 10' pole...

 

And this is just one another example how different I see virtual worlds from the real one, in which I spent most of my daily life

 

 

I concur about the general posts around these forums, people are generally polite, interesting and reasonable. There is no reason we can't be civil to each other even if we are on opposite ends of debate

 

Now just some comments about social justice and how I view issues around it. The main Western countries are typically ahead of other countries and developing countries when it comes to equality and they how  address it. So for example in Africa at there moment there are several countries that have recently passed laws that actually criminalize same sex consensual relationships...seriously you'll go to jail for being gay. I can understand that in Slovakia and other places the objectification of women is not a big deal, you have other things that are probably more important to discuss and deal with.

 

 

But I still believe that issues around social justice, like dealing with homophobia, sexism and racism, are universal themes that should concern us all. But I can understand why for some people its not a big deal. But it doesn't really diminish the importance of the principle around it. Its interesting that story about those guys joking about the fact you live is Slovakia, it was probably not malicious so you joked about it with them. But for me if the jokes were actually annoying I would have  said something and or left those groups. But I can see it wasn't big deal for you and you handled it in your own way.

 

Finally as I mentioned in another post, I don't  believe in social justice because women ( and other groups) either need me to help them or because my "outrage " makes people think I'm cool. In fact I would argue its more work to debate these points as most people are indifferent or don't like to think that something they like and are  participating in is offensive or hurtful  to others. I do it because I believe its the right thing to do. Remember I live in a country that legalised and institutionalized racism for decades so I may be more sensitive to these types of things than others and I have first hand experience of what can happen when these issues are just left to fester

 

[FTL_Dodo]

 

Thanks alan ... I was wanting to reply to Bester but also didn't want to derail the news thread quite that much.

 

 

I think that sometimes (not always, but sometimes) that comes about because some women feel doing such is a path to getting more attention/getting the job/fame they want and/or will make them feel better or more confident about themselves etc.

No. You're trying to rationalize instinctual behavior, which is a frequent amateur mistake. Females' lives are built around their instinct to attract the strongest of males and get their sеmen. It may sound chauvinist, but I mean no offense. It's just that it's really all there's to it.

 

Heh...not like I'm not familiar with that line of thought, since I've used it in my pessimistic moments re: the essentially unchanged nature of humankind. And yes, despite our intellect we are still instinctual creatures who react without thought to certain stimuli. Fight or flight, fear of unknown/different, and of course the oo-la-la.

 

But the nature of humanity is not always the same thing as the culture of humanity, and that's where using that as an argument against change falls apart. People wanting/wishing to be as attractive as possible to find mates, natural thing and I doubt you'd find anyone to argue against that.

 

What is culturally considered attractive, however, is ever changing and is definitely not ruled by instinct alone, but by whatever is the fad at the time. People's interests change, on a cultural level. At one time pudgy women were the height of sexual attractiveness for some. For others it was an exposed ankle. For still others it could be the bone in their perfectly shaped nose or how long their artificially-stretched-from-birth-via-metal-rings neck is. I believe the objection to objectification sometimes (or often) stems less from an objection to sexuality itself and more from how unreasonable that objectification is vs. any reality of what's reasonably physically possible. To most of our "modern" culture, for example, something like forcing girls to bind/literally cripple their feet as a pinnacle of beauty is/seems barbaric, because it's not something reasonable/humane to expect people to do in order to feel like they're attractive/have social worth.

 

While fantasy Barbie-Doll proportions isn't in the same league as crippling one's feet, as this culture of ours evolves and changes, it's not necessarily unreasonable to think that a culture might eventually deem it unfavorable to use such as a socially-influential measurement of worth. Or such objections may end up petering out and going nowhere. Not for me to say. At any rate, just because we have roots that stem from instinct, in the long run that's usually a poor excuse for justifying not even attempting social/cultural change, if and when a time comes that enough people in a cultural group want change.

 

...myself, I'm still waiting for the day that flat feet and broad, short-fingered hands are considered the height of female sexiness. I'll have it made then. Never mind that I already have a mate. I can't wait, because then I'll still be considered super-sexy when I'm 65!

 

Good post, the one thing missing from these discussions is that we don't get enough comments from our female members about these topics. I know one of the reasons for this is because we don't have a large number of female members who actively participate on the forums but its good to get your opinion in this debate

 

Hey, I registered here on the forum specifically to answer your question. Was lurking for a long time, so here goes.

 

I don't care a gram about body types that female characters have in games, and I find this obsession with *female representation* extremely bothersome. I've been gaming for over 20 years, and never once have I been made to feel inadequate because videogame character X had large boobs (I have small boobs, personally. I don't care). And in my opinion, people who care are just fishing for things to complain about, because this "issue" is less then trivial. If some girls feels pressured to do a surgery because Lara Croft has large boobs (I'm simplifying here), it sems to me that the problem is her self esteem, not Lara Croft. But that's what a disturbingly large part of internet population likes to do very much  - blame others and paint them as responsible for their personal hang ups.

 

Games have been presenting idealised male and female body types basically since the graphics got good enough to do an approximation of a human body. Truth is, no one cared until women started complaining, now it's suddenly some huge issue that we are facing. And when you bring up the fact that men are isealized and sexualized in equal measure, you get that it's somehow still worse for teh wimminz. It's not - take a look at a poster for Deus Ex Human revolution, you know the one with Jensen reclining on his couch all topless and moody. Yeah.

 

And you know what? It's okay. Both complaints (about idealization of men and women) are extremely trivial, imo, and not worth bandwidth that's gets wasted on them. Games are not real life, they're escapism. I, a heterosexual woman, like looking at sexy men doing sexy things. I am terribly sorry, I don't want some fat guy with acne and bad haircut in my escapism. Just a wild guess here, but I imagine hetero guys aren't particularly keen on on an important female character in their game having a moustache and 7 chins. Bottom line, we like pretty, sexy things, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

Another moment worth considering is money. Correct me if i'm wrong, but different body types mean different body models in game, which cost money. In a single game, there's usually a single male body model and a single female body model, so naturally, the developers lean towards more typical body type (idealized, of course). It would certainly look strange if all women in a singe game were short and chubby, for example. With the body model which is close to average, it's not s noticeable that they're all the same. Again I could be wrong because I know very little about actual game development.

 

That's my perspective, take it or leave it.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Thanks alan ... I was wanting to reply to Bester but also didn't want to derail the news thread quite that much.

 

 

I think that sometimes (not always, but sometimes) that comes about because some women feel doing such is a path to getting more attention/getting the job/fame they want and/or will make them feel better or more confident about themselves etc.

No. You're trying to rationalize instinctual behavior, which is a frequent amateur mistake. Females' lives are built around their instinct to attract the strongest of males and get their sеmen. It may sound chauvinist, but I mean no offense. It's just that it's really all there's to it.

 

Heh...not like I'm not familiar with that line of thought, since I've used it in my pessimistic moments re: the essentially unchanged nature of humankind. And yes, despite our intellect we are still instinctual creatures who react without thought to certain stimuli. Fight or flight, fear of unknown/different, and of course the oo-la-la.

 

But the nature of humanity is not always the same thing as the culture of humanity, and that's where using that as an argument against change falls apart. People wanting/wishing to be as attractive as possible to find mates, natural thing and I doubt you'd find anyone to argue against that.

 

What is culturally considered attractive, however, is ever changing and is definitely not ruled by instinct alone, but by whatever is the fad at the time. People's interests change, on a cultural level. At one time pudgy women were the height of sexual attractiveness for some. For others it was an exposed ankle. For still others it could be the bone in their perfectly shaped nose or how long their artificially-stretched-from-birth-via-metal-rings neck is. I believe the objection to objectification sometimes (or often) stems less from an objection to sexuality itself and more from how unreasonable that objectification is vs. any reality of what's reasonably physically possible. To most of our "modern" culture, for example, something like forcing girls to bind/literally cripple their feet as a pinnacle of beauty is/seems barbaric, because it's not something reasonable/humane to expect people to do in order to feel like they're attractive/have social worth.

 

While fantasy Barbie-Doll proportions isn't in the same league as crippling one's feet, as this culture of ours evolves and changes, it's not necessarily unreasonable to think that a culture might eventually deem it unfavorable to use such as a socially-influential measurement of worth. Or such objections may end up petering out and going nowhere. Not for me to say. At any rate, just because we have roots that stem from instinct, in the long run that's usually a poor excuse for justifying not even attempting social/cultural change, if and when a time comes that enough people in a cultural group want change.

 

...myself, I'm still waiting for the day that flat feet and broad, short-fingered hands are considered the height of female sexiness. I'll have it made then. Never mind that I already have a mate. I can't wait, because then I'll still be considered super-sexy when I'm 65!

 

Good post, the one thing missing from these discussions is that we don't get enough comments from our female members about these topics. I know one of the reasons for this is because we don't have a large number of female members who actively participate on the forums but its good to get your opinion in this debate

 

Hey, I registered here on the forum specifically to answer your question. Was lurking for a long time, so here goes.

 

I don't care a gram about body types that female characters have in games, and I find this obsession with *female representation* extremely bothersome. I've been gaming for over 20 years, and never once have I been made to feel inadequate because videogame character X had large boobs (I have small boobs, personally. I don't care). And in my opinion, people who care are just fishing for things to complain about, because this "issue" is less then trivial. If some girls feels pressured to do a surgery because Lara Croft has large boobs (I'm simplifying here), it sems to me that the problem is her self esteem, not Lara Croft. But that's what a disturbingly large part of internet population likes to do very much  - blame others and paint them as responsible for their personal hang ups.

 

Games have been presenting idealised male and female body types basically since the graphics got good enough to do an approximation of a human body. Truth is, no one cared until women started complaining, now it's suddenly some huge issue that we are facing. And when you bring up the fact that men are isealized and sexualized in equal measure, you get that it's somehow still worse for teh wimminz. It's not - take a look at a poster for Deus Ex Human revolution, you know the one with Jensen reclining on his couch all topless and moody. Yeah.

 

And you know what? It's okay. Both complaints (about idealization of men and women) are extremely trivial, imo, and not worth bandwidth that's gets wasted on them. Games are not real life, they're escapism. I, a heterosexual woman, like looking at sexy men doing sexy things. I am terribly sorry, I don't want some fat guy with acne and bad haircut in my escapism. Just a wild guess here, but I imagine hetero guys aren't particularly keen on on an important female character in their game having a moustache and 7 chins. Bottom line, we like pretty, sexy things, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

Another moment worth considering is money. Correct me if i'm wrong, but different body types mean different body models in game, which cost money. In a single game, there's usually a single male body model and a single female body model, so naturally, the developers lean towards more typical body type (idealized, of course). It would certainly look strange if all women in a singe game were short and chubby, for example. With the body model which is close to average, it's not s noticeable that they're all the same. Again I could be wrong because I know very little about actual game development.

 

That's my perspective, take it or leave it.

 

 

That's an interesting read and you make relevant posts.  But I also think you are missing some key points in this discussion. And they revolve around a few things that include

 

• the marketing of men as the primary gaming target and misperception around what they want to see in games
• in most games men are not objectified, they are idealised. There is a huge difference

Read these two links to get an idea what I'm talking about

 

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed

 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men

[HoonDing]

Well, at least you didn't link to one of Anita Sarkeesian's videos.

[Nonek]

So what are the ideal male and female forms exactly?

Whom decided this and what statistics did they use?

By what margin is the most popular dominant?

What possible relation do stylised forms that are non existent have to this research, for instance the sorceress of Dragon's Crown or the Destroyer of Torchlight 1?

What happens if objectification coincides with idealisation?

Whom is the final arbiter on this issue?

If a game is targeted at a specific audience is this morally wrong, how so and who decides?

What happens if the non target audience likes the game anyway?

[BruceVC]

So what are the ideal male and female forms exactly?

Whom decided this and what statistics did they use?

By what margin is the most popular dominant?

What possible relation do stylised forms that are non existent have to this research, for instance the sorceress of Dragon's Crown or the Destroyer of Torchlight 1?

What happens if objectification coincides with idealisation?

Whom is the final arbiter on this issue?

If a game is targeted at a specific audience is this morally wrong, how so and who decides?

What happens if the non target audience likes the game anyway?

 

Some goods question, but we need to keep it simple and reasonable. I'll be the final arbiter and it makes sense as I understand the issue?

[Nonek]

Shouldn't every individual have that choice, to be their own final arbiter? Is that not exactly what they do when they decide to buy or not buy a game?

Edited January 27, 2014 by Nonek

[BruceVC]

Shouldn't every individual have that choice, to be their own final arbiter? Is that not exactly what they do when they decide to buy or not buy a game?

 

I can see your logic but no unfortunately that's not how it needs to be. You need to see this as a step to address an aspect of social justice so in this case the  correct choice doesn't need a majority agreement because some in the majority don't really understand the debate in the most accurate context

[Gfted1]

[HoonDing]

That statement is sig-worthy.

[BruceVC]

 

sometimes you really make me laugh

[Gfted1]

Unfortunately, Im not laughing with you, Im laughing at you. To think that only you have the pulse of what constitutes a "social injustice" and what should be done about it undermines your credibility and sort of makes you look like a caricature, imo.

[BruceVC]

Unfortunately, Im not laughing with you, Im laughing at you. To think that only you have the pulse of what constitutes a "social injustice" and what should be done about it undermines your credibility and sort of makes you look like a caricature, imo.

 

 

that is funny. But what I'm saying makes sense if you take the emotion out of the debate

[Elerond]

So what are the ideal male and female forms exactly?

Whom decided this and what statistics did they use?

By what margin is the most popular dominant?

What possible relation do stylised forms that are non existent have to this research, for instance the sorceress of Dragon's Crown or the Destroyer of Torchlight 1?

What happens if objectification coincides with idealisation?

Whom is the final arbiter on this issue?

If a game is targeted at a specific audience is this morally wrong, how so and who decides?

What happens if the non target audience likes the game anyway?

 

Ideal male and female forms depends on culture where question is asked. Often most important factors that impose those ideals are roles that said culture sees to be most ideal roles for males and females. And as idealistic roles in our culture changes and fragments it also make people criticize mediums that are monotonic with their idealization and even more so when medium uses idealization that make other gender look like passive objects, when cultures (at least Western cultures)  have started to more and more despise people that don't take care of themselves, which causes more and more people despise passive characters that can't do anything else than look pretty in some standards.

 

There is whole industry that specializes on marketing who constantly research different groups of people idealize and how they react when they saw those ideals realized. And how make products look like they are part of peoples ideals. But as ideals change from group to group, marketing works usually best when it is targeted only one specific group especially when we speak small segment products like what video games were in 90s. And when product type's imago is created around to idea that it is only one group of people, that idea can become as self feeding monster, as culture around said product type and therefore marketing for said product type focus only that one group of people, even after the fact that products from said type of products are used at least in some extend by people from all the groups. 

 

And when culture sees product type so that it is only for one specific group of people, then product makers that do produce said products in said product type often also make their products work for that one group of people, even though they don't do market research to see who they should aim their product.

 

Objectification always coincides with idealization, as most often your aim is to make people want things that you objectify and to do so you need to make your objects to be ideal objects that people want to own. But in games you most often also want idealized subjects that people want to be. And then there is that grey area where you subjects are also made objects of desire, which blurs roles of subjects and objects to one big mess, where people don't know do they want to be the subject or own the object or bit both.

 

As all matters of cultural view there is no final arbiter, but only ever changing consensus of people that changes from group to group and place to place. Which means that everyone has their own idea what is ideal and how it should be accomplished. And like every social issue, people try change other people point of view using different tactics from friendly debate to scare tactics that make people with different view become silent and doing so excluding (or at least try to exclude) them from general consensus.

 

One could always argue that if you exclude or try to exclude people you are doing something that is morally wrong, but one could also always argue that things that are good for you are morally right. And as there is no absolutes when it comes things like morally wrong or right, which means that one can always argue that things are morally right or morally wrong. Although general consensus about morality in society usually is the thing that people refer when they speak about morality of things, but as general consensus of people is always changing and evolving it also means that one never can say absolutes that are morally right or wrong. But at the end society decides if things that one does are morally right or morally wrong, but other (and future) societies can give different answer to subject. 

 

When people who aren't target of product like said product it is usually seen as positive thing by product maker, but it can also bring subcultures around product which product maker don't like and it can cause general consensus of people see product in different light than it is marketed and therefore can change future of product.

 

 

NOTE: This is long idiotic philosophical pondering that should not be considered to be anyway serious and you should question its factuality. It was written only to entertain myself. 

Edited January 27, 2014 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

 

So what are the ideal male and female forms exactly?

Whom decided this and what statistics did they use?

By what margin is the most popular dominant?

What possible relation do stylised forms that are non existent have to this research, for instance the sorceress of Dragon's Crown or the Destroyer of Torchlight 1?

What happens if objectification coincides with idealisation?

Whom is the final arbiter on this issue?

If a game is targeted at a specific audience is this morally wrong, how so and who decides?

What happens if the non target audience likes the game anyway?

 

Ideal male and female forms depends on culture where question is asked. Often most important factors that impose those ideals are roles that said culture sees to be most ideal roles for males and females. And as idealistic roles in our culture changes and fragments it also make people criticize mediums that are monotonic with their idealization and even more so when medium uses idealization that make other gender look like passive objects, when cultures (at least Western cultures)  have started to more and more despise people that don't take care of themselves, which causes more and more people despise passive characters that can't do anything else than look pretty in some standards.

 

There is whole industry that specializes on marketing who constantly research different groups of people idealize and how they react when they saw those ideals realized. And how make products look like they are part of peoples ideals. But as ideals change from group to group, marketing works usually best when it is targeted only one specific group especially when we speak small segment products like what video games were in 90s. And when product type's imago is created around to idea that it is only one group of people, that idea can become as self feeding monster, as culture around said product type and therefore marketing for said product type focus only that one group of people, even after the fact that products from said type of products are used at least in some extend by people from all the groups. 

 

And when culture sees product type so that it is only for one specific group of people, then product makers that do produce said products in said product type often also make their products work for that one group of people, even though they don't do market research to see who they should aim their product.

 

Objectification always coincides with idealization, as most often your aim is to make people want things that you objectify and to do so you need to make your objects to be ideal objects that people want to own. But in games you most often also want idealized subjects that people want to be. And then there is that grey area where you subjects are also made objects of desire, which blurs roles of subjects and objects to one big mess, where people don't know do they want to be the subject or own the object or bit both.

 

As all matters of cultural view there is no final arbiter, but only ever changing consensus of people that changes from group to group and place to place. Which means that everyone has their own idea what is ideal and how it should be accomplished. And like every social issue, people try change other people point of view using different tactics from friendly debate to scare tactics that make people with different view become silent and doing so excluding (or at least try to exclude) them from general consensus.

 

One could always argue that if you exclude or try to exclude people you are doing something that is morally wrong, but one could also always argue that things that are good for you are morally right. And as there is no absolutes when it comes things like morally wrong or right, which means that one can always argue that things are morally right or morally wrong. Although general consensus about morality in society usually is the thing that people refer when they speak about morality of things, but as general consensus of people is always changing and evolving it also means that one never can say absolutes that are morally right or wrong. But at the end society decides if things that one does are morally right or morally wrong, but other (and future) societies can give different answer to subject. 

 

When people who aren't target of product like said product it is usually seen as positive thing by product maker, but it can also bring subcultures around product which product maker don't like and it can cause general consensus of people see product in different light than it is marketed and therefore can change future of product.

 

 

NOTE: This is long idiotic philosophical pondering that should not be considered to be anyway serious and you should question its factuality. It was written only to entertain myself. 

 

 

I'm sorry you didn't mean what you said because that's one of the most interesting posts I've read in ages, some really good thoughts and I agree with a lot of it 

[Elerond]

I'm sorry you didn't mean what you said because that's one of the most interesting posts I've read in ages, some really good thoughts and I agree with a lot of it 

Oh I mean what I said, but it is wholly about my personal philosophical views and it has points that I wrote only using "methinks" fact checking, which is reason why I put that note in the end so people know that it isn't meant to be a trolling post, but my personal philosophical pondering. And as I don't see myself as superior philosopher, I used word idiotic to describe it, so that it wouldn't sound as pompous as it did without said word