Stamina Regeneration

[Osvir]

Hi!

Title says it all, but I am curious and I don't think this topic has been talked about.

How does Stamina Regen work in Eternity? This is the question. Now for some ideas.

- Stamina being a day-to-day resource. The Sims-esque in a way (Always draining)
- You can recover Stamina by Stamina Potions, Water, Food etc.etc. but only a limited amount and with a "cooldown"
Example:
* You are well-rested, 100% Stamina
* Engage in a fight, you have 80% Stamina left
* Drink a bottle of water, +5% Stamina (85% Stamina)
* Can't drink another bottle or heal more Stamina for a while (say, 3 in-game hours)
* Stamina drains at 5% every single in-game hour
* 100% Stamina Example: Walking around for 3 hours, lose 15% (down at 85%), heal 5% Stamina (90%). Can't heal for 3 hours (70%), heal (75%) etc. etc.

These ideas are somewhat directed towards some Ranger mechanics I discuss here and also because I think it could add some realism as well as tactical resource-management, planning ahead and preparing with Stamina in mind. It also makes somewhat sense (to me) that Stamina could act as a "fatigue" meter which also refers how well your character is doing. Having 100% Stamina the character is happy and probably in a good mood, but at 10% the character might be irritated, tired, frustrated and grumpy (Hit/Miss penalty~).

Critical Misses should, in this case, drain Stamina from the character.

Thoughts on Stamina Regeneration? Instant regen after battle? Or a resource that you manage day-by-day in-game?

Edited November 29, 2013 by Osvir

[Gfted1]

Afaik, Stamina in PE works exactly opposite of your examples. Meaning, its always in a state of regeneration, not depletion. So after a fight and you have 80% left, it would fairy rapidly replenish itself. Im sure there are also abilities and objects that can increase the regeneration rate and/or Stamina pool total. 

 

My personal preference is the PE method over something I have to manage day by day.

[Mor]

So far they only touched on the Stamina and Health(vitality) in terms of how damage is soaked. The way I understand it: Health is how much damage your character can take, which can only be regained by resting or healing(not common). While Stamina is how much you can endure or for the purpose of battles how fatigued or winded you are, which is easily regained, you just need to take a breather.

 

I like the idea of stamina/damage it makes more sense then rolls based on static stats, allowing a party to work together to tire down a single stronger target. I also suspect that many of your abilities will drain your stamina, which makes sense since smashing and bashing evil is very tiring exercise.

[Sabotin]

Stamina works like health in IE games. Health works as a longer term resource. They didn't mention anything about stamina being used for other purposes, but it would be interesting to have some high risk/high reward abilities that use it.

[Osvir]

More envisionary numbers:

- You rest. 100% Stamina.
- 1 in-game hour passes, you're down at 95% (16 hours = down at 20%, adjustable by difficulty)
- You "take a breather", drink some water, down a potion, eat, or whatnot. 100%, can't heal Stamina for next 3 in-game hours.
- Engage in fight.
-- IF you did well: Maybe down at 90%
-- IF you did poorly: Maybe down at 85%
-- IF you did really bad: Down at 70%
- The higher the Stamina, the more "in-shape" the Character is. The lower it is, worse and worse shape.
- Resting irregularly could put stress on the character, and might not replenish 100% Stamna when resting. Stamina Sickness~.

- For the Player, it adds fragility to the character and challenge. Spend too much Stamina during one fight and you won't be able to progress as easily. Engage in a fight all nuke mode and you need to rest right after, but playing more conservatively and tactically you spend less Stamina. The characters aren't big never-tiring machines but prove to be somewhat more human. Adds versimilitiblahdiblah. Realism-ish.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Osvir

[Gfted1]

Isnt that the reason the silly Health mechanic exists?

[Sarex]

What you are describing sounds like Sims to me. I don't like Sims.

[Ulquiorra]

Becouse hes talking about sims-type stamina.

 

I whoud be for OK. But for what reason ?

 

Is applaying stamina bar or some type of basics needs is realy so damn important to aplaying it to the game ?

 

If we are taking about skyrim or fallout type of hash enviorment ten OK. But eating snaks only to "don't let" are char starv or drinking water whoud be more annoying then funny in my opinion.

 

Ok we can have some time of "daily costs" that are dayily consuming our gold for with we eat and drink and i whoud be ok with some time of "resting" mechanics like we seen in BG. But applaying sim-like stamina mechanics in game mostly based on plot and storyline ... is more annoying addon then fully playable content.

[Mor]

@Osvir, I don't know about the specific, but my interpretation in the previous post was based on this:

 

Vitality:

• Characters lose it quickly and regain it relatively rapidly.
• Abilities and spells are able to help replenish or regenerate Stamina.
• fighters continuously regenerate Stamina during combat, but after combat, Stamina regenerates for everyone very rapidly.

Take note of the last point in particular, IMO it contradicts some of your ideas. Edited December 2, 2013 by Mor

[Osvir]

Oh I am not addressing the actual stamina system. I am merely proposing an idea.

As some of you probably know, I like to discuss difficulty and challenge. I think a system where Stamina isn't regenerating fast and quick it will make the game more difficult in the long run.

Mortality Mode is there for those who want the risk of perma death. What I am suggesting is somewhat an addition to the "Mortality"-factor. The character is mortal and get fatigued if working too hard. Currently this can only happen in-combat, but what I am curious is if it could be more generally global.

If you get low stamina by the end of the day, there are other enemies that follow different day-cycles. Bandits may be at 100% Stamina, and you are on your way to a campsite/inn or whatnot and have 40% Stamina. Tells by itself that it'd be more difficult. Situational difficulty. Things that make the Player plan and prepare ahead.

TL;DR: Basically more hardcore difficulty stuff regarding Stamina.

[Osvir]

Oh I am not addressing the actual stamina system. I am merely proposing an idea.

 

As some of you probably know, I like to discuss difficulty and challenge. I think a system where Stamina isn't regenerating fast and quick it will make the game more difficult in the long run.

 

Mortality Mode is there for those who want the risk of perma death. What I am suggesting is somewhat an addition to the "Mortality"-factor. The character is mortal and get fatigued if working too hard. Currently this can only happen in-combat, but what I am curious is if it could be more generally global.

 

If you get low stamina by the end of the day, there are other enemies that follow different day-cycles. Bandits may be at 100% Stamina, and you are on your way to a campsite/inn or whatnot and have 40% Stamina. Tells by itself that it'd be more difficult. Situational difficulty. Things that make the Player plan and prepare ahead.

 

TL;DR: Basically more hardcore difficulty stuff regarding Stamina.

Additionally: Take Slenderman (the scary game), one of the things that were commented most on were the fact that you were a little girl that had no strength and could not run for very long. Many like Amnesia for the very same reason. You have no way to really fight back and it adds a certain "realism" to it (I'd prefer to call it "mortality" in this case). The character is no Half-God from Olympus that is capable of slaughtering armies one-handed~

 

It's quite a perspective to put into the game and both Slenderman, Amnesia, or other similar games win many points to have it.

 

With the same philosophy and psychology I do think that having a sort of Stamina, or other depletion of some other statistic, could add the same sort of mortality.

 

Not to mention the feeling of day/night-cycles really matters. Like I mentioned previously, Bandits who only pillage on nights and sleep during the day might attack you when you're weak and tired whilst they are fresh and rested. On the other hand you might go into a cave during the day, and face off some bat-like or night creatures that are in turn weaker or more stressed because you probably woke them up stomping into their cave.

 

It adds a whole different level of "Do I engage this dungeon during the day or during the night?" preparation. Stealth obviously easier during the night, but maybe some night-only obstacles prove more challenging? Well-rested and alert Guards for instance, the Undead*, some types of animals, maybe even Trolls. Another layer to this further down**

 

It also adds a different layer of depth to the "Do you want to wake up during the morning, day, evening, or night?" question that pops up often in the TES games (and I think in some other games I can't remember).

 

* Does Undead have Stamina?

** Then as "guard shifts" are traded, if you've infiltrated the guards or stolen a guards clothes (by subduing a guard earlier) with 1 of your characters you could switch shifts with an unknowing guard. When the previous guard has walked away from the screen you could then go with the rest of your 5 characters (hiding in an alley nearby) and go on with whatever mission~ what does this have to do with Stamina? Well, either to nullify potential problems of 1 patrol guard in the area with full Stamina so that you can get around easier with less risk or because you're low on Stamina and need an easier time to get around.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Osvir

[Mor]

Oh I am not addressing the actual stamina system. I am merely proposing an idea.

I doubt it will work, because they are likely balancing the whole combat(abilities, encounters etc) around it. Even if you'd be able to do it(increasing penalty to regeneration?) personally, I am not a fan, to me it's like simulating people need to pee during a road trip. Sure it is more realistic, but also more annoying and not the "hardcore" experience I am looking for.

[Osvir]

 

Oh I am not addressing the actual stamina system. I am merely proposing an idea.

 

I doubt it will work, because they are likely balancing the whole combat(abilities, encounters etc) around it. Even if you'd be able to do it(increasing penalty to regeneration?) personally, I am not a fan, to me it's like simulating people need to pee during a road trip. Sure it is more realistic, but also more annoying and not the "hardcore" experience I am looking for.

Was thinking about it a lil bit more and if possible I'll try to make a mod for it or something. Dependable on how easy it is to adjust values like this~

[JFSOCC]

I don't think stamina would be a balanced difficulty modifier, since you're basically always at a disadvantage unless you're well rested. You'll get the same rest-scumming they've been trying to avoid.

[Osvir]

I don't think stamina would be a balanced difficulty modifier, since you're basically always at a disadvantage unless you're well rested. You'll get the same rest-scumming they've been trying to avoid.

Which I include in the idea, the "avoidance" that is. This idea is integrated together with the "Can't rest 500'000'000 times in a row". With a more reasonable number: Maybe rest once an in-game day as a limit. As the character levels up, you'd be able to stay up 2 days, then 3 days etc. etc. getting enough Stamina progressively to last longer. Resting wouldn't be that necessary towards the later part of the game.

 

A) You wouldn't have to rest as much. In "The Sims", for instance, you can rest but the character will keep on getting up or they'll get depressed. The latter is not what I'm suggesting.

B) You couldn't rest as many times as you want. Resting for 6-8 hours would replenish the Stamina accordingly, outdoors/wilds/campsites, always up to 80%.

C) Inns/Strongholds would always rest up to 100%.

 

After resting you'd be able to rest after 16 in-game hours have passed (on hardest). But you'd still be able to keep going. Say, maybe you want to have a better day-cycle towards more evening based missions for instance.

 

Let's take a real-life example:

- If I work evening shifts at my job I have to go to sleep at a different time and go up at a different time than when I'm working day shift.

- When I work evening shift I can't hang out with any friends cus everyone is at work when I get up, and everyone is asleep when I get home.

- When I work day-shift I can hang out with my friends, cus I quit around the same time as them.

- Basically the woe of the working life Stamina~ that's somewhat the idea. It makes the character more relevant for they go through the hardships like you do irl~ xD it does sound cheesy but it is pretty true when looking at Amnesia and Slenderman (as the examples I can think of)

[Mor]

I don't think stamina would be a balanced difficulty modifier, since you're basically always at a disadvantage unless you're well rested. You'll get the same rest-scumming they've been trying to avoid.

I think that Stamina is intended to balance combat as a "cooldown" mechanic, so that you can't spam your strongest abilities, think when to use what(similarly to wizards spells) and when to pull out.

 

While Health suppose to be the resting related modifier, it been noted that in PE world medicine is not very evolved, so no endless health potions/spells, making resting more important if you want to survive.

 

what is rest scumming?

[Sarex]

Your mistake is that people want real life in this type of game. That, to be honest, seems like a boring and tedious mechanic to me. What is next, stamina starts to fall off more rapidly if the character doesn't poop after he has taken a meal?

[Ulquiorra]

Your mistake is that people want real life in this type of game. That, to be honest, seems like a boring and tedious mechanic to me. What is next, stamina starts to fall off more rapidly if the character doesn't poop after he has taken a meal?

 

Yeah and if he dont win proper score in fully playable minigame. For example sore >500 gives you "You make a poop good" but if you get <500 you get "you **** on yourself" hahaha

[Lephys]

I would agree that, while your ideas for that sort of stamina system are pretty good, Osvir, it doesn't really fit the design of P:E very well, I don't think. I mean, Stamina's basically a form of health (even in the Sims), as it dictates what you can and cannot do (you can only do stuff so long as you have stamina, etc.). In P:E, it and health are more limiting how poorly you can handle situations. If your stamina and health just depleted over time, even if you didn't take a single scratch throughout 5 different combat encounters, for example, then you'd just have to rest all the time no matter what you did.

 

It's just not the same thing. The Sims is almost entirely based around time management. You start out only being able to replenish so much stamina (because of crappy beds, etc.), and therefore only being able to do so much in a given amount of time. Then, you get better and better stuff, thus allowing for more stuff to easily be done in the same amount of time.

[Osvir]

I would agree that, while your ideas for that sort of stamina system are pretty good, Osvir, it doesn't really fit the design of P:E very well, I don't think. I mean, Stamina's basically a form of health (even in the Sims), as it dictates what you can and cannot do (you can only do stuff so long as you have stamina, etc.). In P:E, it and health are more limiting how poorly you can handle situations. If your stamina and health just depleted over time, even if you didn't take a single scratch throughout 5 different combat encounters, for example, then you'd just have to rest all the time no matter what you did.

 

It's just not the same thing. The Sims is almost entirely based around time management. You start out only being able to replenish so much stamina (because of crappy beds, etc.), and therefore only being able to do so much in a given amount of time. Then, you get better and better stuff, thus allowing for more stuff to easily be done in the same amount of time.

Which is pretty common in RPGs too. Heck, very common in pretty much every single game I can think of. You level up, get better and better, then you eventually become godlike and can take on 500 enemies at once. Exaggerated for many games, but pretty much that. Or you drive the fastest car in a driving game eventually. I can name lots of examples.

 

What I kind of want isn't that you need to rest all the time, but that Stamina would deplete enough that you'd have to rest when it starts to make sense.

 

A Level 1 Character might have to rest once every day. A Level 2 might be able to be up a little bit longer. A Level (jumping a lil bit) 6 character might be able to stay up (with his Stamina) for 2 to 3 days. And the more careful and tactical you are in encounters, you'd lose less Stamina still.

[Osvir]

 

I would agree that, while your ideas for that sort of stamina system are pretty good, Osvir, it doesn't really fit the design of P:E very well, I don't think. I mean, Stamina's basically a form of health (even in the Sims), as it dictates what you can and cannot do (you can only do stuff so long as you have stamina, etc.). In P:E, it and health are more limiting how poorly you can handle situations. If your stamina and health just depleted over time, even if you didn't take a single scratch throughout 5 different combat encounters, for example, then you'd just have to rest all the time no matter what you did.

 

It's just not the same thing. The Sims is almost entirely based around time management. You start out only being able to replenish so much stamina (because of crappy beds, etc.), and therefore only being able to do so much in a given amount of time. Then, you get better and better stuff, thus allowing for more stuff to easily be done in the same amount of time.

 

Which is pretty common in RPGs too. Heck, very common in pretty much every single game I can think of. You level up, get better and better, then you eventually become godlike and can take on 500 enemies at once. Exaggerated for many games, but pretty much that. Or you drive the fastest car in a driving game eventually. I can name lots of examples.

 

What I kind of want isn't that you need to rest all the time, but that Stamina would deplete enough that you'd have to rest when it starts to make sense.

 

A Level 1 Character might have to rest once every day. A Level 2 might be able to be up a little bit longer. A Level (jumping a lil bit) 6 character might be able to stay up (with his Stamina) for 2 to 3 days. And the more careful and tactical you are in encounters, you'd lose less Stamina still*

Edit time ran out.

 

* "you'd lose less Stamina still", clarification: The less Stamina you lose during a day, the longer you can "stay up" so to speak. So if you'd lose 50% of your Stamina as a Level 1 character, you'd be able to stay up til the next day (if you can keep it up). This is what I am proposing. But then again, if you lose 80% of your Stamina as a Level 1 character on one day, it might be wise to tuck in for the night and replenish some of it yes?

 

I think a Stamina system like this adds to an overall challenge of the game. It makes the character feel more fragile. And if resting is "limited" in a way that you can't rest as much as you like, then it becomes a resource to nourish and take care of... at the very least on harder difficulties. 

 

Maybe a constant depletion of Stamina is a bad thing after all, but I still want to discuss the idea itself of the regeneration of Stamina. What I kind of "fear" is that we'll see a somewhat DA:O execution with Stamina. All your guys fall down to the ground when the battle is over, but then their Health Stamina explodes and is 100% again in a matter of moments. It is one of the "bad" mechanics of DAO and to my understanding (and personal preference) it is not anything I liked and that many seemed to dislike as well.

 

The underlying questions (which should be a poll I suppose):

1. Do you want Stamina to go up to 100% after every battle?

You lost 100% Stamina, but it's okay, you'll replenish all of it when the battle is over

 

2. Do you want Stamina to regenerate slowly?

One hour has passed since the last battle, you lost 20% Stamina in the battle, but you've regained 5%. You are now at 85%.

 

3. Do you want Stamina to "stop" after every battle?

You lost 20% Stamina, you will now be at 80% Stamina until next rest

 

4. Do you want Stamina to deplete with time? (No regeneration at all, combo with "3.")

Time takes its toll, you have lost 20% Stamina and you lost 20% Stamina in the last battle. You are now down at 60%.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Osvir

[Lephys]

I guess what I'm saying is, with the way that P:E is designed, it doesn't make much sense for Stamina to do anything but always replenish to full. I say "always." I mean, it would be kinda neat if there were rare-ish status effects or what-have-you that limited you to 90% or 80% or something.

 

But, anywho... I value the exploration of stamina mechanics, but I've gotta say that, while doing that, in thinking about them in relation to P:E, it doesn't seem like the type of game that benefits very much from a lot of the various stamina approaches.

 

That was the comparison I was trying to make with the Sims and such. In the Sims, the game is pretty much ABOUT your person, and that's it. Everything revolves around your person, including the mechanics. In an RPG like P:E, you've got a lot of progression going on with your character, but the whole focus of the game isn't on your character's progression. The only role I could see Stamina taking (if it weren't taking its "I'm your immediate, in-the-moment" health" role) would be something along the lines of the spells-per-day stuff. It would be the non-magic people's equivalent to spells-per-day, to govern physical acts and abilities in between restings/replenishments.

 

*shrug*

[J.E. Sawyer]

Maybe a constant depletion of Stamina is a bad thing after all, but I still want to discuss the idea itself of the regeneration of Stamina. What I kind of "fear" is that we'll see a somewhat DA:O execution with Stamina. All your guys fall down to the ground when the battle is over, but then their Health Stamina explodes and is 100% again in a matter of moments. It is one of the "bad" mechanics of DAO and to my understanding (and personal preference) it is not anything I liked and that many seemed to dislike as well.

 

Any character (other than a barbarian) who loses 100% of their max Stamina will also have lost 25% of their current Health.  Characters who keep getting their faces pounded wind up in precarious positions because they hover dangerously close to being maimed or (optionally) dying.  If a character walks around with a maimed status, it doesn't matter if they have 100% Stamina; pretty much any hit will immediately drop them again.

[decado]

I've always envisioned the health/stamina mechanic to be a difference between strategy/tactics.  From my understanding, health is the determining factor in how long you can go without resting, whereas stamina is a combat-based resource that needs managing.  So, health is the thing that determines how far you want to stray from home, sort of like "injuries" in DA:O or, maybe, the way health and stamina were done in Betrayal at Krondor (both decent systems, in my view).

 

I think calling it "health" is giving some people the vapors. It seems some people are equating health with hit points.

 

Question for Josh: Do you guys refer to anything as "hit points"?  Or is that term just not used?

Edited December 10, 2013 by decado

[Sensuki]

It's also a less ridiculous implementation of "daily hit points" than D&D 4E's Healing Surges concept.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Sensuki