A Dream of Mine - A PE without Cookie Cutter Builds

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

Or, not even straying out of pure-combat skills... you take a weapon proficiency, and there are only 3 of that weapon in the entire game available to you. Versus some other weapon proficiency, of which weapon there are 30 different variants. Less viable.

This is a REALLLY good point.  I bought the just out Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition from Beamdog and wanted my main character (fighter) to go a different route than normal.  I thought, hey I bet bastard sword and off hand short sword or shield might be cool?  I am not dumb though and did my due diligence.  Come to find out there are hardly any bastard swords in the game and the best bastard sword is a joke compared to even the second or third best long sword or top two great swords.  If I went that route I literally gimped myself simply because the game did not have a great end game bastard sword... period.

 

this is one of the reasons why I wanted crafting so badly. If you can make your own damn Bastard sword, you don't have to worry about what the game provides, you can provide it yourself.

 

 

As someone that initially didn't care much about crafting, this very argument alone has won me over. Let us craft, or have a very balanced supply of all weapon groups!

[forgottenlor]

 

 

Or, not even straying out of pure-combat skills... you take a weapon proficiency, and there are only 3 of that weapon in the entire game available to you. Versus some other weapon proficiency, of which weapon there are 30 different variants. Less viable.

This is a REALLLY good point.  I bought the just out Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition from Beamdog and wanted my main character (fighter) to go a different route than normal.  I thought, hey I bet bastard sword and off hand short sword or shield might be cool?  I am not dumb though and did my due diligence.  Come to find out there are hardly any bastard swords in the game and the best bastard sword is a joke compared to even the second or third best long sword or top two great swords.  If I went that route I literally gimped myself simply because the game did not have a great end game bastard sword... period.

 

this is one of the reasons why I wanted crafting so badly. If you can make your own damn Bastard sword, you don't have to worry about what the game provides, you can provide it yourself.

 

 

This was one thing I liked about Temple of Elemental Evil. I did one play through where 4 out of my 5 characters were equipped with pole arms. (Fighter/Cleric, Paladin, Fighter/Thief, Barbarian). I really wanted to try to make a phalanx, and it functioned pretty well, because I could craft my own polearms.

[TrashMan]

I'm perfectly fine with playing sub-optimal builds.

 

PE is not a competitive game, so I dont' give a damn if there is a "perfect" build.

And to me it makes sens that some things (or classes) are generally better/stronger.

[Karkarov]

Yes, but:......

Uh yeah, I have beaten BG2 before.  Which is why I said "do something new" in my post.  Also no, there is no good route with Bastard Swords.  Not in BG1, not in BG2.  Even if you somehow got the best one as early as possible it would still be sub optimal to any number of other weapons  you could find at the same or near same time.  Yes originally the game used "weapon groups", but the point is still valid and stands.  If the game doesn't support your build than your build is gimped, even if mechanically there is nothing wrong with it, that was the point I was making.

 

Also after researching it to be safe and finding out it doesn't work long term I went with greatswords.

[Kjaamor]

Uh yeah, I have beaten BG2 before.  Which is why I said "do something new" in my post.  Also no, there is no good route with Bastard Swords.  Not in BG1, not in BG2.  Even if you somehow got the best one as early as possible it would still be sub optimal to any number of other weapons  you could find at the same or near same time.  Yes originally the game used "weapon groups", but the point is still valid and stands.  If the game doesn't support your build than your build is gimped, even if mechanically there is nothing wrong with it, that was the point I was making.

 

Also after researching it to be safe and finding out it doesn't work long term I went with greatswords.

 

I shall politely, if incredulously, disagree with your first paragraph in its entirety. The second again refers to your personal choice, although in the context of the discussion I'd again point you back to part 3 of my "Yes, but..."

[HardRains]

I'll be happy if there are no dump stats for any class.

[teknoman2]

here's a little example using DnD

a fighter does not need dexterity, because he will use a full plate that will remove all dexterity bonuses 

a fighter does not need intelligence, because he will not be casting any arcane spells and has no need for more than 1 skill point/level anyway

a figher does not need any wisdom, because he will not be casting any divine spells

a fighter needs no charisma, because he has no speech skills

so that leaves us with strength and constitution. any build in which you put any point in any stat besides str and con is a failed build, unless you plan to multi class

so any system that offers me a reason to make a wise or intelligent or even charismatic fighter, is by default better than DnD 

[imatechguy]

I think this is a good conversation to have but I think everyone is focusing on the result of the "breakage" not the root cause.  I think Lephys started to get there in his posts on the first page.  When it comes to combat there will always be builds that are better than others; some at specific tasks others in a more general sense.  But when you have a handful of builds, and especially a single one, that is orders of magnitude better than all others and devastates all enemies then I propose the flaw is not in the class or build but is actually in the enemies.  While the class or build in question may be more powerful than others to me it points instead to a lack in variety and/or tactics of the enemies. 

 

If I play a mage with a penchant for fireballs and I'm going after Boss #2 he shouldn't have a bunch of regular swordsman standing around in large groups with no fire resistance gear as he patiently waits me to arrive at his place for the big confrontation.  He should have some mage-killer types sprinkled around the place and the whole crew shouldn't rush me in a big gaggle just begging to be set on fire all at once.  By the same token if I'm a swordsman that approaches combat like a blender set on puree then Boss #2 should have a completely different set of underlings with different tactics to come at me.  If I don't normally run with a rogue type then there should be a lot of traps hastily thrown about maybe many aren't even hiden since I'm probably not going to be able to disable them.  If I typically have a rogue type, or am one myself, then the traps could be more strategically placed and better disguised.

 

I am not saying the game should meta-game our characters stat/skills and I realize there is no way to code in different tactics and enemy compositions for all build/party possibilities but some high level decisions can be made based on how I/my party typically approaches combat and at least the boss type characters should adjust to that.  If Obsidian can do that then there shouldn't be a need to meticulously balance the builds so none are overly good because the variety in enemy classes and tactics will do that for them.

Edited November 22, 2013 by imatechguy

[tajerio]

I am not saying the game should meta-game our characters stat/skills and I realize there is no way to code in different tactics and enemy compositions for all build/party possibilities but some high level decisions can be made based on how I/my party typically approaches combat and at least the boss type characters should adjust to that.  If Obsidian can do that then there shouldn't be a need to meticulously balance the builds so none are overly good because the variety in enemy classes and tactics will do that for them.

 

I don't think there's even any need to make enemy composition high-level responsive to your decisions.  Just have a lot of variation in enemies and enemy combinations as a usual part of the game.

[imatechguy]

 

I am not saying the game should meta-game our characters stat/skills and I realize there is no way to code in different tactics and enemy compositions for all build/party possibilities but some high level decisions can be made based on how I/my party typically approaches combat and at least the boss type characters should adjust to that.  If Obsidian can do that then there shouldn't be a need to meticulously balance the builds so none are overly good because the variety in enemy classes and tactics will do that for them.

 

I don't think there's even any need to make enemy composition high-level responsive to your decisions.  Just have a lot of variation in enemies and enemy combinations as a usual part of the game.

 

True, if there is a good variety of tactics, enemies and enemy combinations then there is not really a need for any high-level decision making.  However after multiple playthroughs, think 10+,  it will be difficult to ignore the fact that I know bad guy #5 in Boss #3's lair is just around the third corner to the left and a fireball lobbed just so will probably take him out.  Of course I reason this out with the logic that if this was my 1st playthrough I'd still know because I would have scouted it out before moving in.  But this just saved me the time/tediousness of moving slow while scouting on yet another playthrough.  It's human nature and technically it's a valid point.  However even if I have and use a scout, just like I did on the 1st playthrough, I never can recapture that sense of wonder, danger and thrill of discovery found in the first time playing the game if the enemies are always the same and in the same places. 

 

So if Obsidian goes to the trouble of really diversifying the enemies why not take it a small step further and have those enemies be a little bit more reactive.  Use relatively simple things that a towns person would notice and relate in stories like comments about our gear, our companions and their gear, survivors of battles telling stories about what happened, tales of those battles seen by the townspeople we've saved from the town pillaging bad guy hoard #4.  The more we play the better intel the enemies can acquire so the first couple bosses might think a PC a fighter type because they wear heavy armor.  Half way or so into the game they start figuring out the PC is really a mage and change underling composition accordingly.  I think it would help greatly with immersion and replayability at hopefully small cost. Counters for armor and weapons most often equiped or used to kill enemies, what class abilities have you used in view of npc's, etc.

 

 

EDIT: cleared up the thoughts in a few sentences.

Edited November 23, 2013 by imatechguy

[IndiraLightfoot]

imatechguy: Those are very nice ideas. Thank you for sharing!

[Kissamies]

 

 

Or, not even straying out of pure-combat skills... you take a weapon proficiency, and there are only 3 of that weapon in the entire game available to you. Versus some other weapon proficiency, of which weapon there are 30 different variants. Less viable.

This is a REALLLY good point.  I bought the just out Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition from Beamdog and wanted my main character (fighter) to go a different route than normal.  I thought, hey I bet bastard sword and off hand short sword or shield might be cool?  I am not dumb though and did my due diligence.  Come to find out there are hardly any bastard swords in the game and the best bastard sword is a joke compared to even the second or third best long sword or top two great swords.  If I went that route I literally gimped myself simply because the game did not have a great end game bastard sword... period.

 

this is one of the reasons why I wanted crafting so badly. If you can make your own damn Bastard sword, you don't have to worry about what the game provides, you can provide it yourself.

 

Yes, my past experiences with these kinds of problems is one of the main reasons why I think there should always be a some sort of crafting system. More elegant than littering the game with magic weapons so that every type is always covered.

[sarkthas]

Hmm I kinda like finding certain magical weapons with unique characteristics. Certain on hit abilities I'd like to be out of the players league, and therefore not attainable through crafting etc. But that's just me.

[Failion]

I do not care about the number scheme of things. Baldurs gate if you have +5 to your thaco score and magical weapon. Good game you beat the game no matter what your weapon preference is. The game is easy no matter what route you take. All it needed was more balanced builds and some not being utterly useless in comparison to the overpowered builds. This is 2013 and I doubt obsidian is going to do a repeat of the goofy balance of 2nd edition kits when it comes to their class balance. 

 

I just want to see obsidians spin on a modern real time rpg with modern stuff like cool attack animations and hopefully more gameplay content. weapons sledgehammers and pikes. 

Edited November 23, 2013 by Failion

[Lephys]

Hmm I kinda like finding certain magical weapons with unique characteristics. Certain on hit abilities I'd like to be out of the players league, and therefore not attainable through crafting etc. But that's just me.

 

That's when you could just rarify the actual source of that particular on-hit ability. You know, "this can only be produced from the shell of a dragon egg, but it must be processed and crafted directly into the metal." Boom. You didn't have to find a Bow of Flame Resistance, a Sword of Flame Resistance, 7 different armors of Flame Resistance, etc.... You just found one thing, and it can be anything you want. Therefore, an (insert whatever item you want to craft here) of Flame Resistance is still a rare thing (arbitrarily using "flame resistance" as an "out of the player's league" type property), but you're not just rolling the dice on whether or not you'll find the type of item you actually want from it.

 

Anywho... I suppose this is getting mildly off topic. (My bad.)

Edited November 26, 2013 by Lephys