World Map Travel

[Lephys]

I only have the 3.0 and 3.5 DMGs here ... (so can't check AD&D to see what it's comparison was for BG/IWD) but they explicitly state that a wizard _must_ rest for eight ( 8 ) hours before they can start studying their spellbook(s).

Agh, I misread that. That's my bad. I thought AD&D did it, but now I'm not so sure.

 

Anywho, that being the case, I feel it's awfully arbitrary. It seems like a forced way of balancing the spells, so that Mages couldn't re-use their spells more than once every 9 hours, tops, instead of designing the system with any number of other methods of balance.

 

Put a minimum on the prep frequency. So, "You must sleep/rest/trance for 8 hours before you can possibly even re-prepare even a single spell" would instead be "You cannot prepare your spells again within 8 hours of any prior spell preparation." That makes more sense. Why does it take 8 hours to clear your mind, but only an hour to prepare 44 spells?! Apparently, even in a world filled with magic, clearing your mind (something that is realistically possible and is done in any number of vocations/tasks/disciplines) is still the hardest, most time-consuming thing in existence?

 

In other words, it seems awfully silly to specify mandatory, time-consuming actions that must be taken just to provide the game function of replenishing your spell ammo (that's limited for reasons), instead of simply specifying conditions under which you can do so. Like I said, minimum prep delay (your brain can only handle the complex preparation of spells so often without mental fatigue setting in and the spells slipping from your mind immediately), maybe a "you can't be stupidly tired" condition. So, if you've been up for 24 hours, and you need to prep spells, you're going to need to sleep. Etc.

 

Things of that nature. Especially in a PnP environment, that always seemed like such a heavy-handed method of regulating that. *shrug*

 

I understand the game's need to prevent you from simply being able to replenish all your spells in the blink of an eye, 50 times per day (because, if the rules were designed to support that, then they simply wouldn't include the per-day limitations in the first place). But, still... It especially made no sense in a DnD setting when you were Level 1 and had like 3 spells. "It takes me 8 hours to prep Magic missile, but then it also takes me 8 hours, later on, to prep 44 Summon Apocalypse spells."

 

Anywho... in P:E, it seems as though the replenishment of spells (in the lore) will be attributed to the sort of "recharging" of your grimoire. If that's so, and it works similarly to a battery, then you'd think the amount of time spent recharging it would be directly proportionate to the amount of spell uses you get back. So that would already support variable resting, and some kind of 8-hour mandate would be kind of pointless.

[neo6874]

 

I only have the 3.0 and 3.5 DMGs here ... (so can't check AD&D to see what it's comparison was for BG/IWD) but they explicitly state that a wizard _must_ rest for eight ( 8 ) hours before they can start studying their spellbook(s).

Agh, I misread that. That's my bad. I thought AD&D did it, but now I'm not so sure.

 

Anywho, that being the case, I feel it's awfully arbitrary. It seems like a forced way of balancing the spells, so that Mages couldn't re-use their spells more than once every 9 hours, tops, instead of designing the system with any number of other methods of balance.

 

 

It's actually worse than that, because if you're interrupted (say a fight for 1 minute/10 rounds), you get an hour added to the "rest time" ... AND you also cannot re-fill any spell slot(s) that you burned within the last 8 hours.

 

So if that fight was 6h into your rest .. you have to +1 hour of rest (so, 9h "resting" overall), AND lose out on however many spells you used during the fight, because it's only been ~3 hours since you expended the spell(s).

 

 

 

 

In other words, it seems awfully silly to specify mandatory, time-consuming actions that must be taken just to provide the game function of replenishing your spell ammo (that's limited for reasons), instead of simply specifying conditions under which you can do so.

 

I think it's a bit of glossing things over to keep things straight that would work across all classes and attributes. I mean, the rules are complex enough without "and you can take 1/2 hour off for every modifier point for the primary attribute of your spellcasting"

 

It especially made no sense in a DnD setting when you were Level 1 and had like 3 spells. "It takes me 8 hours to prep Magic missile, but then it also takes me 8 hours, later on, to prep 44 Summon Apocalypse spells."

It's 8 hours of rest to "get ready" to study your spells.

 

The actual act of studying your book takes a minimum of 15 minutes, and a maximum of 1 hour regardless of how many slots you're actually "filling" for the day.

 

edit -- the other part of this is to keep things moving ... I mean if it's "1 hour" for 4 cantrips and a L1 spell, and goes up by [time] for every spell (and higher level spells take longer), you're gonna eventually get to a point where "OK, we rested all night, and the Wizard took all morning to replenish his spells ... so we can travel for 4 hours today; at this pace, we'll make it to Suzail in *checks map* ... 6 weeks..."

Edited December 7, 2013 by neo6874

[rjshae]

 

What's wrong with random encounters?

Could spice things up... and have story content. Why not?

Story content, sure. But I hate random encounters with a passion. They are arbitrary obstacles placed in between you and what you really want to do. They're generic, tedious and superfluous. Want to rest? oops, no, **** you, you HAVE to do this first. They're a grind.

 

They aren't arbitrary; they represent the risk of traveling through wilderness areas. That's the way it works in the wilderness--as you travel through the wilds you randomly come across potential dangers, be it bears, cougars, snakes, angry badgers, or what have you. But sometimes the biggest dangers are other people.

 

What's lacking is a means to mitigate that risk. You should be able to choose to navigate your way along the more travelled roads, or take the risk of moving directly cross country along a shorter path. Avoiding the random hazards of the wilds is one of the benefits of having a Ranger. A Ranger should also be more likely to find interesting sites to explore.

[Lephys]

It's actually worse than that, because if you're interrupted (say a fight for 1 minute/10 rounds), you get an hour added to the "rest time" ... AND you also cannot re-fill any spell slot(s) that you burned within the last 8 hours.

 

So if that fight was 6h into your rest .. you have to +1 hour of rest (so, 9h "resting" overall), AND lose out on however many spells you used during the fight, because it's only been ~3 hours since you expended the spell(s).

Indeed. It sucks when you get attacked in the middle of the night while your camping/sleeping, and you, as the Wizard, then have to tell everyone "Okay, guys, I'm gonna hafta sleep/wait 'til tomorrow afternoon to really be of any use now, because I had to use my 2 main spells in that fight just now, u_u...". And I get that it's balanced in isolation: The Wizard takes all that prep time and everything, but later on gets to do some pretty potent stuff. But, if you were to get attacked every 4 hours for a bit, you'd be about as useful as a quarterstaff while your Warrior and Ranger are putting swords and arrows through goblin after goblin after goblin after goblin after goblin. So, yeah, it's nice that you get the ability to take out 20 goblins at once with a big fireball, but that does you no good if you can't ever prepare it when you need it. And it's not like the other classes can't keep dishing out damage. Like the Warrior can only take out 10 goblins per day or something. *shrug*

 

It's just a bit strange is all.

 

It's 8 hours of rest to "get ready" to study your spells.

 

The actual act of studying your book takes a minimum of 15 minutes, and a maximum of 1 hour regardless of how many slots you're actually "filling" for the day.

 

edit -- the other part of this is to keep things moving ... I mean if it's "1 hour" for 4 cantrips and a L1 spell, and goes up by [time] for every spell (and higher level spells take longer), you're gonna eventually get to a point where "OK, we rested all night, and the Wizard took all morning to replenish his spells ... so we can travel for 4 hours today; at this pace, we'll make it to Suzail in *checks map* ... 6 weeks..."

No no, I get it. I didn't mean that "all other things staying the same, bigger spells should take longer and longer to prep." But, it would make more sense. And, I get that it's prep time before you're able to prep your spells, but preparation is preparation, as far as function goes. But... *shrug*. It doesn't take 8 hours to clear your mind before working simple addition, AND 8 hours to prep your mind before working quantum physics. So, you'd just think there'd be a relationship between the complexity of the spells and the amount of time required to ultimately prepare them. I mean, if 8 hours is acceptable, why not start with 2 hours or something? "You only have 2 Magic Missiles and a Shield spell... it takes you 2 hours to mentally become capable of memorizing these spells." Then, work your way up to 8?

 

I can't think of one other thing in the universe that you can't simply spend less time prepping for and just do less of. Just seems like that could've been better thought-out, ya know? The system balances itself, already. You're a Wizard, so you get to make giant fireballs, so the downside is that you have to spend a long time in preparation before you can do this, so it's not always readily available. But then, as a Level 1 Wizard, you're only capable of lighting a candle... SO WE'RE STILL going to balance that with a crazy amount of time before you can even do THAT!

 

*shrug*... it's just caster's angst I've got going on here, methinks.

[JFSOCC]

 

 

What's wrong with random encounters?

Could spice things up... and have story content. Why not?

Story content, sure. But I hate random encounters with a passion. They are arbitrary obstacles placed in between you and what you really want to do. They're generic, tedious and superfluous. Want to rest? oops, no, **** you, you HAVE to do this first. They're a grind.

 

 

They aren't arbitrary; they represent the risk of traveling through wilderness areas. That's the way it works in the wilderness--as you travel through the wilds you randomly come across potential dangers, be it bears, cougars, snakes, angry badgers, or what have you. But sometimes the biggest dangers are other people.

 

What's lacking is a means to mitigate that risk. You should be able to choose to navigate your way along the more travelled roads, or take the risk of moving directly cross country along a shorter path. Avoiding the random hazards of the wilds is one of the benefits of having a Ranger. A Ranger should also be more likely to find interesting sites to explore.

 

I agree, the problem is threat mitigation.

 

I wrote an alternative to exploring the wilderness last year, I'm afraid to necro the thread, but maybe you want to have a look at it.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62261-a-wilderness-idea/

I figured this would be a good way to allow people to choose their risk, plus give certain classes a little more versatility (like the ranger) I think it's a fair match with what we're discussing now.

[neo6874]

@ Lephys, For the first part, a wizard is only out her "two big" spells if they're the only two slots available, she can still prepare them if there are more slots of that level available.
 
For example, a L6 wizard only has 2x L3 spell slots (so 2x Fireball).  If she uses both fireballs, well she needs to wait 8 hours before those slots "open up" again.  However, a L11 wizard has 4x L3 spell slots, so if she uses 2x fireball in the middle of the night, maybe she'll choose to drop 'Flame Arrow' and 'Invisibility Sphere'  so she can fill them with 2x fireball again.
 
 
For the second part, I think it's just easier to have written out the rules that "100% of spells = 1 hour" than messing around with "it takes longer because [reason]".  Although, after having read the rules like 20 times now, it seems that "studying" your spellbook is more akin to cooking than "actual studying"* -- e.g. For a fireball:

• Take (ingredients), and start chanting these words [chant here]
• as you're chanting, roll ingredients into a ball about the size of a large marble
• continue rolling ball until [here]. 
• Spell is prepared and ready to use, to use, utter the incantation "Incertus, Pulcher, Imperio", and then throw the ball at the target.
• Warning: Upon hitting the target, or other hard surface, ball will explode into a 20 foot diameter fireball.  Stand clear.
• Addendum: "Fireballs" are known to the state of California to cause cancer. 

*"Actual studying" in the sense that a kid at uni will bust ass for 4 hours to pass a final, or a licensing exam, or something else of that nature.

Edited December 10, 2013 by neo6874

[Lephys]

@ Lephys, For the first part, a wizard is only out her "two big" spells if they're the only two slots available, she can still prepare them if there are more slots of that level available.

 

For example, a L6 wizard only has 2x L3 spell slots (so 2x Fireball).  If she uses both fireballs, well she needs to wait 8 hours before those slots "open up" again.  However, a L11 wizard has 4x L3 spell slots, so if she uses 2x fireball in the middle of the night, maybe she'll choose to drop 'Flame Arrow' and 'Invisibility Sphere'  so she can fill them with 2x fireball again.

 

 

For the second part, I think it's just easier to have written out the rules that "100% of spells = 1 hour" than messing around with "it takes longer because [reason]".  Although, after having read the rules like 20 times now, it seems that "studying" your spellbook is more akin to cooking than "actual studying"* -- e.g. For a fireball:

• Take (ingredients), and start chanting these words [chant here]
• as you're chanting, roll ingredients into a ball about the size of a large marble
• continue rolling ball until [here]. 
• Spell is prepared and ready to use, to use, utter the incantation "Incertus, Pulcher, Imperio", and then throw the ball at the target.
• Warning: Upon hitting the target, or other hard surface, ball will explode into a 20 foot diameter fireball.  Stand clear.
• Addendum: "Fireballs" are known to the state of California to cause cancer. 

*"Actual studying" in the sense that a kid at uni will bust ass for 4 hours to pass a final, or a licensing exam, or something else of that nature.

 

Again, I was mainly referencing early-on stuff. For a couple of levels there, for example, you only get one level-2 spell (at least, the way BG did it, you did).

 

Also, while I get what you mean by it being easier to just say "this process takes 1 hour," that particular point is then questioned by the fact that it can take as little as 15 minutes, or as long as 1 hour. So, I'm basically left wondering "if you just wanted to simplify it, how's about it takes 1 hour, always, no matter what?" OR, actually have the range of times it could take be more proportionate to the amount of stuff being done. If you have 40 spells, preparing 1 single Light-A-Candle spell takes 15 minutes, but then preparing all 40 possible spell slots (filled with all manner of complex, higher level spells, as well) only takes an hour. In cooking terms, that'd be a bit like saying "Well, even if you just want to roast a marshmallow and eat it, that's going to take 15 minutes. But, if you want to cook an entire 7-course meal, that'll only take an hour, 8D!"

 

*shrug*

 

Maybe I'm just weird, but I'd've done it differently. It comes down to the effects on gameplay. Which is why I keep referencing the early-on levels, when your Wizard, even WITH all their spells (in the typical D&D setup) can barely do anything, quantity-wise (compared to other classes). I understand that in PnP roleplaying, an awful lot can be done with LvL 1 D&D spells. But, in a cRPG, significantly less can be done with them.

 

Anywho, with PoE's spell system, spells are more recharged, I think, than "prepared." And you already start getting them back either infinitely or on a per-encounter basis as you advance (the lowliest-level ones, relative to your given advancement), so the system already supports a separation: Some of your spells you're going to have prepared even without any resting, much less a certain amount.

 

So, resting system potential is there, is all I'm saying. With variable resting, included. The ONLY thing standing in the way is the arbitrary 8-hour requirement from D&D rules, which PoE isn't even using. I've stated my case, and people can feel free to disagree on that. Otherwise, I think further discussion of Wizards' requirements in D&D rules is straying a bit from the topic at hand.

 

More on topic, there's definitely plenty of potential for many a choice to affect HOW you move about the map. Especially with the scripted interactions. Instead of just having map travel, then a chance of either random battles or successful arrival at your destination, you could have any number of things. Maybe you run into some fresh tracks, and can either decide to continue in that direction, or change course? Maybe having a Ranger in your group, (or at least someone with high Survival/Wilderness skill) affects how much of a delay that incurs, and/or whether or not you get lost if you veer off into the woods, etc. If you take the roads, as has been mentioned, you'd probably get somewhere quicker/more easily, but you'd be more of a target for bandits and such. And you're more likely to be seen, even by innocent people who think nothing of answering a simple "Have you seen people matching the following description come through here lately?", etc.

 

I definitely think that a "select a destination" world map can still allow for exciting and interesting travel.

[neo6874]

I don't think we can really compare BG/IWD though, since they're AD&D  and I'm quoting 3/3.5E rulebooks.  I get where you're coming from though.

 

 

As for the roasting a marshmallow thing, that works, but I think it's more like this:

 

To roast a marshmallow:

0. Spend 8 hours cutting down trees and splitting logs (i.e. "rest" requirement)

1. start fire

2. wait ~15 minutes for the fire to burn down a bit

3. roast marshmallow for ~1 minute

 

To roast an entire bag:

0. Spend 8 hours cutting down trees and splitting logs (i.e. "rest" requirement)

1. start fire

2. wait ~15 minutes for the fire to burn down a bit

3. roast ~45 marshmallows in bag over the course of the next 45 min

 

 

Both instances take "at least" 15 minutes for the first one (because campfire), but after that you're only spending 30-60s per marshmallow.

 

As for the 7 course meal bit, um ... 

0. Spend 8 hours preparing all the dishes (glazes, sauces, whatever)

1. start oven(s)

2. wait ~15 minutes for them to preheat

3. put things in, and cook for ~1 hour (or less, depending on the thing)

 

Granted with cooking/baking, there are things that take longer than "1 hour" to cook.  However, my point wasn't so much that studying your spellbook was like the cooking process itself, but rather reading the recipe and getting the ingredients together before you start -- e.g. it's taken me about 40 minutes of reading Grandma's recipe for soup and triple-checking that I have everything right ... and if she were making it, it'd take her 10, and she probably wouldn't bother measuring either...

[Lephys]

I get it. I do. I know I'm being difficult. I'm not trying to say "Yeah, that's nice, but none of it makes any sense." It makes perfect sense, in the way that it does so.

 

But, very much like your steps for roasting the marshmallow, if you JUST want to roast a marshmallow, you don't need 8 hours worth of firewood gathering/preparation.

 

Again, I understand that it's a mental thing, and thus it has to do with rigorous mental stuff, and probably requires a lot of proper rest and alertness, etc. But, quite literally everything else in the universe is variable, while that still remains an 8-hour (plus 1-hour, which is less of a big deal) thing. How preposterous would you think it if a Fighter couldn't swing his sword unless he'd rested for 8 hours beforehand? Maybe he gets 10 sword swings per day, then, he's just incapable of swinging his sword. He must perform 8 hours worth of stretching exercises, then 15-minutes-to-an-hour (depending on how many times he wants to swing his sword that day) meditating with his sword. THEN he can perform any amount of sword-swinging, whereas before he could perform exactly none. He couldn't go in fighting and just suck. He couldn't have a -10 to his attack roll. He just couldn't even do anything.

 

That's my sentiment with that whole 8-hours of sleep thing. If you want to prepare the spell Move A Bread Crumb One Inch, it's still SO complicated of a mental process that you need 8 entire hours of preparation before you can even BEGIN to prepare that actual spell. Or, you can prepare Merge All Planes Onto The Enemy's Face, and it takes the same amount of time. My line of thinking is... why WOULDN'T it take more time (regardless of how much... just relatively more) to prepare the latter than the former? Why am I not mentally capable of preparing a spell (not even doing anything magical yet... just mentally fixing a spell in my mind) until such a rigorous process, but I can cast it in like .000001 seconds?

 

Those are questions I ask. And then I think, "Hmm... couldn't that have been done a little differently?" It's just so disconnected from everything else in the rules. Like they just thought "Hmm, we'd better make sure Wizards don't get to use their spells too often. How about they can only do it after they sleep? I mean that's something people'll be doing. Sleeping for like 8 hours, standard." Then they just rolled with it, and explained it with "because it's... uhhh... really really difficult to... uhh... study spells?"

 

AKA, I don't think "yeah, it takes me like 8 hours to even be able to do ANYTHING remotely magical" is a very valuable asset to the lore, and there are 17 other ways of functionally accomplishing the very same level of control over Wizard spell-prep frequency/balance.

[neo6874]

TBH, I think we enjoy nitpicking each other

 

I see where you're coming from with it ... and after reading the rules a million times now -- it seems they wrote the resting as if the assumption was that you cast your last spell right before hunkering down for the night (e.g. "Rope Trick" or any of the other "safe resting place" spells), rather than having a "well, figure out how many hours ago you cast you last spell, and subtract from 8 to see the minimum you need to rest".  I'm just pulling this from the caveat about "If you use a spell, then you must wait 8 hours before you can use that slot again".

Edited December 12, 2013 by neo6874

[Shadowless]

My dearest Thread,

 

I hope his letter finds you well, I wish it was possible for me to be by your side but with your mothers passing I am forced to work constantly allowing me no time to visit.  I have faith those I leave you with shall care for you until such a time as I am able to return and reunite our family

With Love

Daddy

 

 

The first few days went well for Thread, a few trustworthy souls coming to help feed clothe and house her but then she got caught up with a bad crowd.  This crowd got her addicted to a new stimulant known as OT and she quickly lost her way.  Soon enough she lashed out at those who cared until she drove away all but her fellow addicts leaving her to slowly wither away with no one to take care of her.  It's been a few weeks and she is no more than a husk piteously moaning whenever someone notices hoping for just one more hit.

 

Daddy arrived home but found it in shambles, looted by the looks of it and he was unable to find his daughter.  Increasingly frantic he hurries down streets hearing her laughter down an alleyway or catching the scent of her hair in a shop but alas it is merely his mind playing tricks on him tortuting his soul for abandoning his precious offspring.

 

There are only two clear choices left, continue to make dear Thread live and suffer in this state or help Daddy find her and bring her home.

 

P.S.

For those of you that cannot figure it out this is a story about a thread that was forced into the foul life that is Off Topic.

[Osvir]

My dream World Map traveling system:

- The Fallout World Map Freedom of Path. Click there, go there. Might get a random encounter, might not get one. But I have the freedom to click anywhere, and my pixel will go there. It's childishly simple and accessible in a very good way.

 

- Realms of Arkania Traveling Depth. When you travel from one location to the other; Food, Hunt, Camping, Scout, you name it. The little messages you get and the choices you get, "There's a cliff here, do you wish to try and climb it or walk around it?". Climbing it goes faster but at several risks, costs more energy (I think) and you might lose a character (death) or something. Walking around it takes more time, and I think that's the only con of it.

 

- Ultima Feedback & Darklands Combat. See what's going on in the proximity of where your Fallout dot is going. Maybe there are some bandits lurking about, or a caravan that is going from one location to another. Less random encounters, but more of a choice and allowing the Player to observe what's going on around them on the world map. Choose to engage in various obstacles that pops up or choose not to. Not every encounter needs to give the Player a map either. For instance, one caravan might be a merchant, and instead of going into a rendered map, you could get a window box which allows you to buy and sell items. Or some toll guards which won't allow you to pass unless you pay money, and only when trying to fight them do you get sent into "rendered map mode" and combat ready, kind of like Darklands.

 

Speaking about Darklands and that last paragraph, let me elaborate:

I traveled the world map, and I got this message which said "You see a hut, what do you want to do?" kind of. I chose to sneak up to it, but I got spotted and then I was sent to "battle-mode" instantly and got to fight some nasty wolves and a crazed wizard who utterly destroyed me. But that's what I'm talking about regarding Darklands in the last paragraph. Travel the world as a pixel, and unless there's a fight or an important story/quest/lore/easter egg/event that's happening, stay on the world map (otherwise get sent into battle mode).

Additionally, Obsidian could make "Wilderness Areas" that look the same (Kind of like the Random Encounters in Baldur's Gate) but have different content in them and different spawn points depending on what "Encounter" you get. Fallout does it too, and Darklands as well.

 

Meaning: They could re-use 1 Wilderness Area to showcase 10 different encounters. This would require Obsidian to make the world map a little bit more "Free Form" and "Open World" in this sense though, which is a step away from what the Infinity Engine games were.

[Jobby]

So possible new strech goals for additional wilderness? aiming for a scope somewhere between BG1 & BG2, I have to say I'm delighted to hear this I just really hope they can implement them in such a way that we can re-create the feel of adventure/exploration from BG1 by forcing us to pass through tiles to find new ones.

The suggestions to make said areas irrellevent to the main story but flesh out the gameworld and backstory also sounds like the perfect balance, again if a simmilar system to BG1 was adopted with a fairly safe path through the centre of the wilderness tile meaning players can avoid the dangerous wilds if they want.

 

What kind of areas would people like to see? I would love something simmilar to the bassilisk forest in BG1 but make it a swamp and pack it with statues, it could have a really eerie feel to it, I would also like to see some ruins from the previous wars that have went on, perhaps some monuments aswel, anything that can tie the lore of the gameworld to an area/region would be great.