Hit & Miss - Finalized/Updated?

[Pray]

I read a lot of the post about their being no true missing - IE spells and attacks always do damage.

 

Has this changed, or been updated/revised? I was unable to find anything else about it, and the post on it was closed almost a year ago.

 

I was just thinking about how much fun it was to wait to see if your sniper hit/missed that critical shot which would spell life or death for teammates, and that if that was mostly gone, how sad I would be.

 

Any updates?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Assuming "Attack" and "Defense" are equal, there will be a 5% chance to critical, 45% chance to hit, 45% chance to graze, and 5% chance to miss. I'm not positive on how much the percentages change from difference in the two stats.

[teknoman2]

i think that for every point in stat difference the % changes by one. 

so a melee attack 15 vs melee defense 15 is 5% critical - 45% hit - 45% graze - 5% miss

a melee attack 20 vs melee defense 15 is 10% - 55% - 35% - 0

a melee attack 15 vs melee defense 20 is 0 - 35% - 55% - 10%

[kgambit]

i think that for every point in stat difference the % changes by one. 

so a melee attack 15 vs melee defense 15 is 5% critical - 45% hit - 45% graze - 5% miss

a melee attack 20 vs melee defense 15 is 10% - 55% - 35% - 0

a melee attack 15 vs melee defense 20 is 0 - 35% - 55% - 10%

 

I think the last two examples are off.  You've changed the attack vs defense differential by 5% but you reduced/increased the total hit/miss percentages by 15% if you include the crit hits and misses. 

 

If I understood the system (and that's not a given) the crit range was a fixed distance from the bottom of the hit range. 

So I think those last two examples should be:

 

a melee attack 20 vs melee defense 15 is 10% - 45% - 45% - 0

a melee attack 15 vs melee defense 20 is 0 - 45% - 45% - 10%

 

I'm not sure but I think there is always some minimum % for a graze.  So even if your attack-defense differential is 50 or greater that there is still a finite chance of not scoring a clean hit.

 

Edit:  There is.  Here's Josh's quote:

 

Even when an attacker's Accuracy is completely outclassed by the target's defense, there's always a 5% chance to score a (normal) hit.  In the opposite direction, even the greatest Accuracy advantage still allows a 5% chance to graze.

 

 

I could be wrong about this, so someone correct if I am. 

 

Here's the thread where Josh's comments from Something awful are quoted:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63091-josh-sawyer-on-miss-and-hit/page-11?hl=%2Bcombat+%2Bhit+%2Bmiss&do=findComment&comment=1296667

Edited October 29, 2013 by kgambit

[Prometheus]

If I understood the system (and that's not a given) the crit range was a fixed distance from the bottom of the hit range. 

So I think those last two examples should be:

 

a melee attack 20 vs melee defense 15 is 10% - 45% - 45% - 0

a melee attack 15 vs melee defense 20 is 0 - 45% - 45% - 10%

 

How would this scale if your defense is far greater as the attacker's accuraccy?

1. only crit raises

a melee attack 25 vs melee defense 15 is 15% - 45% - 40% - 0%

a melee attack 30 vs melee defense 15 is 20% - 45% - 35% - 0%

or

2) only normal hit raises

a melee attack 25 vs melee defense 15 is  10% - 50% - 40% - 0%

a melee attack 30 vs melee defense 15 is  10% - 55% - 35% - 0%

 

I thought, that higher number scales something like this:

a melee attack 20 vs melee defense 15 is  6% - 49% - 41% - 4%

a melee attack 25 vs melee defense 15 is  7% - 53% - 37% - 3%

a melee attack 30 vs melee defense 15 is  8% - 57% - 33% - 2%

 

 

Heres the qoute where Josh Sawyer mentioned the changes by higher defense/ Accuraccy.:

In D&D, +3 is still +3 even when other bonuses from other sources enter the mix that makes up the aggregate.  Even if it comprises a smaller proportion of the total, it's still valuable.  All other things being equal, a class' starting defense bonuses will always shift their overall balance.  A 5th level barbarian may find a number of ways (items, spells, etc.) to get his or her Deflection on par with a 5th level fighter's, but given access to the same methods, the fighter would still maintain his or her class advantage.

 

In PE, for any standard attack, every 5 points of defense translates to a 5% shift to miss, graze, hit, and crit (sometimes negating the possibility entirely).  In D&D terms, a 15 point defense advantage is similar to +3/-3.  Shifting the odds always helps.

 

[J.E. Sawyer]

Differences between accuracy and defense shift the entire scale point for point.

 

20 Accuracy vs. 20 Deflection = 5% Miss, 45% Graze, 45% Hit, 5% Crit

25 Accuracy vs. 20 Deflection = 0% Miss, 45% Graze, 45% Hit, 10% Crit

15 Accuracy vs. 20 Deflection = 10% Miss, 45% Graze, 45% Hit, 0% Crit

97 Accuracy vs. 52 Deflection = 0% Miss, 5% Graze, 45% Hit, 50% Crit

 

No matter what the difference between accuracy and defense are, it's always possible for the attacker to Graze or Hit.  However, through advantage or deficit, the attacker can eliminate the possibility of Miss and Crit.  Certain classes have abilities that shift these bands.  E.g. rogues have Dirty Fighting, which increases their Crit range.  Fighters have Confident Aim, which increases their Graze range.  They can also gain Critical Defense, which -- you guessed it -- makes it more difficult for enemies to score Crits against them.

[teknoman2]

i see, so an advantage in defense takes away hit and critical and add them to miss, while an advantage in attack does the same to miss and graze. makes more sense than how i thought it was. must be the fever.

Edited October 29, 2013 by teknoman2

[Sensuki]

Fighters have Confident Aim, which increases their Graze range..

 

Does this replace the bonus to melee accuracy that it was stated they had a while ago ?

[J.E. Sawyer]

Confident Aim is one of their higher level abilities.

[lolaldanee]

i really like this system, though i still think a gaze should not do any health damage, but only stamina

Edited October 29, 2013 by lolaldanee

[morrow1nd]

Differences between accuracy and defense shift the entire scale point for point.

 

20 Accuracy vs. 20 Deflection = 5% Miss, 45% Graze, 45% Hit, 5% Crit

25 Accuracy vs. 20 Deflection = 0% Miss, 45% Graze, 45% Hit, 10% Crit

15 Accuracy vs. 20 Deflection = 10% Miss, 45% Graze, 45% Hit, 0% Crit

97 Accuracy vs. 52 Deflection = 0% Miss, 5% Graze, 45% Hit, 50% Crit

 

No matter what the difference between accuracy and defense are, it's always possible for the attacker to Graze or Hit.  However, through advantage or deficit, the attacker can eliminate the possibility of Miss and Crit.  Certain classes have abilities that shift these bands.  E.g. rogues have Dirty Fighting, which increases their Crit range.  Fighters have Confident Aim, which increases their Graze range.  They can also gain Critical Defense, which -- you guessed it -- makes it more difficult for enemies to score Crits against them.

 

Does that mean (without class abilities ofc)

 

hit = health + stamina damage

 

graze= stamina damage + some chance of health damage ?

 

i really liked the new physical combat mechanics 

Edited October 29, 2013 by morrow1nd

[J.E. Sawyer]

A Graze halves incoming damage, before armor.  Damage is almost always applied to Stamina, with Health damage being derived from Stamina damage at a (typically) 1:4 ratio.

 

Let's say an attack (the source doesn't really matter) would do 20-28 points of damage on a capital-H Hit.  The target has 6 points of Damage Threshold against this damage type.  The attack hits and does 24 points of damage.  Armor takes off 6 points, leaving 18 points of Stamina damage, which in turn means the target takes 4.5 points of Health damage (yes, we do track fractions).

 

On a Graze, the same 24 points of damage is immediately reduced to 12 points of damage.  6 points come off, leaving 6 points of Stamina damage and 1.5 points of Health damage.

[Labadal]

Do spells work in a fairly similar way? Or is that calculated in an entirely different way? I want to build a character that has the opportunity to avoid as much magic as possible and just run in and smash enemy wizards, etc.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Spells work like any other type of attack.

[Labadal]

Okay, that's all I needed to hear.  <----------

[morrow1nd]

Ouch!

[Lephys]

I DO like the idea of a Graze dealing Stamina-only damage, or at least altering that 1:4 ratio of Health damage or something. I mean, just in theory. Mainly, it's the idea of altering that ratio in certain cirtumstances, and the idea of a Graze fits well with that, is all.

 

What I am curious about, on that note is when/how-often that ratio will change, as you (Josh) say "(typically)." If you get the chance, Josh, could you please provide an example or two of what types of things might alter that ratio, and how prevalent they might be?

[lolaldanee]

from a purely mechanical standpoint, grazes doing some (very limited because of the small ratio) health damage is perfectly fine

 

but from a immersion standpoint, i think a graze could oh so well represent the constant dodging and parying going on in a battle, that tires the defender even if he is not really hit, but saves him from being actually wounded, and thus he doesn't receive any health damage

 

a "real" block/evade, where you are not hit at all, would then represent the case where you evade so well, it doesn't even tire you

 

in a nutshell this would be a perfect system for me:

 

- crit: you fully hit the enemy, and also tire him a lot

- normal hit: the enemy mostly blocks/evades, but not fully so, and thus you do some small damage + tireing him quite a bit

- graze: the enemy blocks/evades, you do no damage, but tire him to some extent

- miss: you hit so badly/the enemy blocks/evades so well, you do not even tire him

 

i think this way to handle grazes would reflect reality quite nicely, and still not be too dependent on luck, as constant grazes will still wear down an enemy, even if they do not do any real damage as long as the enemy isn't very tired

is there any real reason not to do it that way?

Edited October 29, 2013 by lolaldanee

[Valorian]

A Graze halves incoming damage, before armor.  Damage is almost always applied to Stamina, with Health damage being derived from Stamina damage at a (typically) 1:4 ratio.

 

Let's say an attack (the source doesn't really matter) would do 20-28 points of damage on a capital-H Hit.  The target has 6 points of Damage Threshold against this damage type.  The attack hits and does 24 points of damage.  Armor takes off 6 points, leaving 18 points of Stamina damage, which in turn means the target takes 4.5 points of Health damage (yes, we do track fractions).

 

On a Graze, the same 24 points of damage is immediately reduced to 12 points of damage.  6 points come off, leaving 6 points of Stamina damage and 1.5 points of Health damage.

 

Graze isn't any longer half the minimum damage? So 10 instead of 12.

[rjshae]

Note that it's graze, not gaze. As in a glancing blow. You're not wearing out your foe with a dirty look.

[rjshae]

Fighters have Confident Aim, which increases their Graze range.  They can also gain Critical Defense, which -- you guessed it -- makes it more difficult for enemies to score Crits against them.

 

 

Confident Aim is one of their higher level abilities.

 

It doesn't seem like this would be all that beneficial: if I understand correctly then it's mostly useful against enemies that have a much higher Deflection rating compared to your Accuracy rating, and even then it only gives up to half damage in the infrequent cases where you would normally miss completely. I guess I'd have to try it to convince myself.

[lolaldanee]

there are those people that sure do just that....

or imagine the gazes a bull guarding grazing cattle will give you, feels just like having received a graze

brace yourself!

anyway, fixed

[Lephys]

Note that it's graze, not gaze. As in a glancing blow. You're not wearing out your foe with a dirty look.

... Unless you're a ****atrice! Or a Gorgon... or... something else that has a painfully frightening stare.

 

It doesn't seem like this would be all that beneficial: if I understand correctly then it's mostly useful against enemies that have a much higher Deflection rating compared to your Accuracy rating, and even then it only gives up to half damage in the infrequent cases where you would normally miss completely. I guess I'd have to try it to convince myself.

As non-typical as it seems, try to think of the fact that certain enemies are going to have "super high Deflection" as their thing; their difficulty. So, even amongst higher-than-average Accuracy folk, that range is going to shift towards a lot of missing and grazing. Hell, imagine, even a 50/50 between those. (Well, 50/45/5, because of the "you can always Hit" thing). If you can increase the 45% chance to Graze to, say 75%, that pushes the miss chance down to 25% from 50. You're missing HALF as often as you were.

 

So, as strange as it is (again) for Grazing to be your almost-best-case-scenario, it kind of is, there. Hits would sort of become your crits. Basically, think of those enemies as being "immune to crits," just like others are immune to certain damage types or elements, etc. Then it makes a little more sense, I think. It's still very much not what we're used to seeing in existing games, though. 8P

Edited October 29, 2013 by Lephys

[J.E. Sawyer]

 

Graze isn't any longer half the minimum damage? So 10 instead of 12.

 

 

Correct.  It's now half "rolled" damage (or duration).  Similarly, crits are now +50% "rolled" damage (or duration).

[Lephys]

 

 

 

 

Graze isn't any longer half the minimum damage? So 10 instead of 12.

 

 

Correct.  It's now half "rolled" damage (or duration).  Similarly, crits are now +50% "rolled" damage (or duration).

 

Interesting. I take it we're probably not going to be seeing crazily broad damage ranges like in many other games (i.e. 1-12, or 4-24), so that you never swing a could-do-24-regular-damage weapon and deal 8 damage on a crit?

 

I mean, obviously if you've decided to change it, it works. Just mildly curious. I eat details for breakfast, and I missed my morning meal.