The core rules of P:E, Pen & Paper style

[J. Trudel]

I didn't see a forum thread like this one yet, so I decided to create my own. One of the thing we know the least about Project Eternity is the ruleset used in the engine. That's right, the role playing gameplay mechanics. Most of us Infinity Engine fans are also fans of pen and paper RPG in general. For me, one of the most important features of the IE games was that pen & paper feel. 

 

I hope that this feature will not be lost in favor to a more ''computerized'', too much scaling and calculation heavy system. I guess I am probably not the only one in that case, but let us share our ideas here and hope that the developpers hear us. The game mechanics in a pen & paper system can make or break the game. I do feel the same can happen in a cRPG. 

 

One last note, a pen & paper system in P:E could also be used for a pnp version of the game. A project I would back-up for sure ! 

 

Please developpers, don't make us lose the pen & paper mechanics !

[rjshae]

Trying to adjust and simplify the CRPG so that it can be made into a PnP game will most likely diminish the result. Hopefully then that isn't a significant factor in this stage of the IP development.

[J. Trudel]

Appart than the speed of attack, I don't think that having PnP like game mechanics will dimnish the result at all. In fact, ALL cRPG I have played which were adaptions of PnP mechanics had superior results gameplay wise. This is one of the reason why people remember so fondly about games like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter and Icewind Dale. 

 

By comparison, who still plays the first Diablo anymore ? 

[Nonek]

I still ocassionally get my old Diablo cd out and have a good old dungeon crawl, can't be beaten for atmosphere.

[rjshae]

Appart than the speed of attack, I don't think that having PnP like game mechanics will dimnish the result at all. In fact, ALL cRPG I have played which were adaptions of PnP mechanics had superior results gameplay wise. This is one of the reason why people remember so fondly about games like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter and Icewind Dale. 

 

Eh, no, I don't think they were superior gameplay wise because of the PnP mechanics. I just finished BGEE and the gameplay felt decidedly archaic. CRPGs have benefited by the alteration of PnP rules to make them more CRPG friendly, not the other way around.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It depends what you mean by PnP-like. Modern PnP games have very simple mechanics, to avoid making the players do a lot of work in terms of mathematics. That's bad for CRPGs. But that doesn't mean that CRPGs shouldn't use rules that are still theoretically compatible with tabletop gameplay (even if their computational complexity makes actual tabletop gameplay impractical).

 

I would like to see a ruleset that incorporates things like archery range bonuses from firing from higher ground where the bonuses are adjusted for tiny elevation differences, even though that wouldn't work in PnP, but I do not want to see mechanics where the rules are inconsistently applied in the name of encounter balancing, for example, because that's not how PnP rules work.

[Sensuki]

The standard rules seems like they will convert pretty well to P&P

 

Attack Resolution has to be cut down to 5% chunks to fit a d20, so 1 = miss, 2-10 = graze, 11-19 = hit, 20 = crit (where accuracy - defense = 0)

[Micamo]

It depends what you mean by PnP-like. Modern PnP games have very simple mechanics, to avoid making the players do a lot of work in terms of mathematics. That's bad for CRPGs.

Not necessarily: Simple != Shallow, and Complicated != Deep. The best game mechanics are most often the simplest. The advantage CRPGs offer over PnP isn't fast computation.

[J.E. Sawyer]

The standard rules seems like they will convert pretty well to P&P

 

Attack Resolution has to be cut down to 5% chunks to fit a d20, so 1 = miss, 2-10 = graze, 11-19 = hit, 20 = crit (where accuracy - defense = 0)

 

In fact, we use a lot of percentile modifiers and damage ranges that would be very slow and difficult/impossible with standard dice.

[Lephys]

CRPGs are, essentially, just PnP-style rulesets with all the back-and-forth between players and DM/GM replaced by a coded interface and the computer acting as the DM.

 

I don't think you have anything to worry about. Obsidian's basically just writing their own rules, but that doesn't mean they're writing a completely different kind of rules. They're still very PnPish. Could you simply take the game code and play a PnP game with it? PRobably not. But, you could get pretty close, I'm sure.

 

The main difference is the interface. PnP rules are tweaked to support the infinite possibility of imagination, while CRPG rules are tweaked to minimize the limitations of finitely coded content/options/scenarios.

[J. Trudel]

Most of my fear lies in how the rules make the game world credible. I remember being able to do Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 without any magical equipment. Also whats the point of having 3000 hp when no one do 1 damage anyway? Sometime concepts are good but the execution is strange. What I mean is not having rules that are exactly like pnp, but rules that do feel like PnP. 

 

Just an example :

 

In Dragon Age : Origins, you have a system which I think is not that bad on the first look. But after a while you begin to wonder how having 89 in an attribute relate to the world around. It does not ''tell'' anything it's just a number used for calculations. 

 

Fallout was very PnP in my opinion even if it was never an actual PnP game. This is an example IMHO done right. Also very easy to convert to PnP. I ran a few game with the rules back in the days.

[Kjaamor]

Most of my fear lies in how the rules make the game world credible. I remember being able to do Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 without any magical equipment. Also whats the point of having 3000 hp when no one do 1 damage anyway? Sometime concepts are good but the execution is strange. What I mean is not having rules that are exactly like pnp, but rules that do feel like PnP. 

 

Just an example :

 

In Dragon Age : Origins, you have a system which I think is not that bad on the first look. But after a while you begin to wonder how having 89 in an attribute relate to the world around. It does not ''tell'' anything it's just a number used for calculations. 

 

Fallout was very PnP in my opinion even if it was never an actual PnP game. This is an example IMHO done right. Also very easy to convert to PnP. I ran a few game with the rules back in the days.

 

I agree on all counts, although I would add that I'm sure one of my fallout games actually came with the PnP version on the disk, not that I ever used it.

[J. Trudel]

I do trust the devs on this anyway. But I like giving my opinion. It also serve to give them feedback ! Also thanks J.E. for taking the time to read all the comments and respond to them. Your dedication is impressive !

[Lephys]

I do trust the devs on this anyway. But I like giving my opinion. It also serve to give them feedback ! Also thanks J.E. for taking the time to read all the comments and respond to them. Your dedication is impressive !

Yeah, he's kinda like Forum Santa.

[Sensuki]

 

The standard rules seems like they will convert pretty well to P&P

 

Attack Resolution has to be cut down to 5% chunks to fit a d20, so 1 = miss, 2-10 = graze, 11-19 = hit, 20 = crit (where accuracy - defense = 0)

 

In fact, we use a lot of percentile modifiers and damage ranges that would be very slow and difficult/impossible with standard dice.

 

Sure but you'd just slightly change the rules / repurpose them for P&P if you were doing a conversion. I was thinking of doing a pseudo-PE P&P session with some mates later in the year instead of playing D&D so that's what I was going to do when more information is available.

 

Longsword 5-8 would just be 1d4+4. Percentages would require a bit of thinking though.

 

Attack speed would be one of the more difficult ones I imagine, but percentiles could probably be re-staggered (in 5% blocks) into a d20 equivalent fairly easily.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Sensuki

[Micamo]

For percentage-based damage increases, an easy (but probabilistic) method: For each point of damage to inflict, roll d100. For each d100 which is less than or equal to the percentage increase, add 1 damage.

 

For percentage-based damage reduction, roll d100 for each point: Each d100 over the reduction value adds 1, each value under does nothing.

 

So, as an example, rolling 5 damage at a +37% bonus against an opponent with 52% damage reduction does 3.562 damage per hit, on average.

 

You could easily change all percentages to be 5% increments and do it with d20's.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Micamo

[Jonathan1247]

Now, just to verify, Project Eternity isn't using any Dungeons & Dragons ruleset of any kind?

Because if not, I hope they've devised a suitable replacement. It's hard to beat the AD&D feel of the Infinity Engine games. However, I could see the perks of having a more free form and refreshing ruleset that differs occasionally from past Infinity Engine games.

[tajerio]

Now, just to verify, Project Eternity isn't using any Dungeons & Dragons ruleset of any kind?

Because if not, I hope they've devised a suitable replacement. It's hard to beat the AD&D feel of the Infinity Engine games. However, I could see the perks of having a more free form and refreshing ruleset that differs occasionally from past Infinity Engine games.

 

Obsidian is using a ruleset that its own developers are creating.  Not a D&D ruleset.

 

If your hope is that the ruleset "differs occasionally" from past Infinity Engine games, I fear you will be disappointed.  Everything we've learned thus far seems to indicate that the ruleset for Project Eternity will have major and frequent differences with the adapted AD&D ruleset of the IE games.  

[Sensuki]

If your hope is that the ruleset "differs occasionally" from past Infinity Engine games, I fear you will be disappointed.  Everything we've learned thus far seems to indicate that the ruleset for Project Eternity will have major and frequent differences with the adapted AD&D ruleset of the IE games.

Indeed. I count myself one of those people and I have very mixed feelings about the various presented mechanics, ranging from optimistic to indifferent to very disappointed.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Sensuki

[J. Trudel]

I also have to admit that a D&D ruleset is hard to beat. After all, even if it's not a cRPG it's probably one of if not the most loved system in all RPGs. 

 

What I like so far that have been revealed :

• The 4 defenses : Deflection, Reflex, Fortitude, Psyche
• The engagement mechanic
• The classes and their design 

What I have mixed feelings about

• Attack resolution, I think that the chance to miss is too low. For me when you get hit with a Sword it IS a graze, else you would be dead. 
• The armor scalling and damage system, from what we have seen the range will be really wide. Why ? I mean why would a basic leather armor be a waste at higher level ? 

[rjshae]

 

If your hope is that the ruleset "differs occasionally" from past Infinity Engine games, I fear you will be disappointed.  Everything we've learned thus far seems to indicate that the ruleset for Project Eternity will have major and frequent differences with the adapted AD&D ruleset of the IE games.

Indeed. I count myself one of those people and I have very mixed feelings about the various presented mechanics, ranging from optimistic to indifferent to very disappointed.

 

The majority of what I've heard thus far seems pretty reasonable and sensible; there's a couple of ideas that I'm not so sure about. Hence I'm taking a wait and see attitude toward the implementation of the mechanics because I won't really know until I start playing the game how well they will work out. Having played multiple different PnP rulesets I'm not all that sold on the D&D game system as a whole, so I'm open to some new approaches.

[J. Trudel]

I also take the wait and see, but give my opinion aproach I'm also open the new systems, in fact I wasn't satisfied with DnD so I had to design my own system from scratch. But I do enjoy playing it from times to times for a refreshing change. 

[J.E. Sawyer]

If your hope is that the ruleset "differs occasionally" from past Infinity Engine games, I fear you will be disappointed.  Everything we've learned thus far seems to indicate that the ruleset for Project Eternity will have major and frequent differences with the adapted AD&D ruleset of the IE games.  

 

 

PE's ruleset is about as different from 3E as 3E was from 2nd Ed. AD&D.  As a reminder, IWD2 was a 3E D&D game, not a 2nd Ed. AD&D game.

[lolaldanee]

 

If your hope is that the ruleset "differs occasionally" from past Infinity Engine games, I fear you will be disappointed.  Everything we've learned thus far seems to indicate that the ruleset for Project Eternity will have major and frequent differences with the adapted AD&D ruleset of the IE games.  

 

 

PE's ruleset is about as different from 3E as 3E was from 2nd Ed. AD&D.  As a reminder, IWD2 was a 3E D&D game, not a 2nd Ed. AD&D game.

 

if the improvement of the ruleset from IWD2 and NWN2 to PE is as big as from IWD1 to IWD2 we'll all be praising you a lot (well, most of us i guess)

Edited August 1, 2013 by lolaldanee

[Sensuki]

The majority of what I've heard thus far seems pretty reasonable and sensible; there's a couple of ideas that I'm not so sure about. Hence I'm taking a wait and see attitude toward the implementation of the mechanics because I won't really know until I start playing the game how well they will work out. Having played multiple different PnP rulesets I'm not all that sold on the D&D game system as a whole, so I'm open to some new approaches.

Most of the stuff I didn't like has been taken out (cooldowns, no miss, crafting system) anyway. And the other stuff we don't have much info on yet, just a drop in the pond.

 

The best thing the designs have going for it IMO is the amount of options: core character building has the traditional stuff along with Culture and Ethnicity among other things, and you get to pick your start gear unlike the IE games (unless you count BG1 haha).

 

Then there are also lots of different weapons and armor and the system promotes the use of all of them (or well, generally, stuff may need to be tweaked to be better/worse later on).