RPG Codex Josh Sawyer Q&A

[jethro]

The overall motivation seems to be to make it impossible to mess up character generation/development and make it easy to switch to different types of weapons without needing any defined skill or training with that weapon to wield it effectively. But in so doing it removes a crapload of choice for the player.

 

Well, one obvious choice it adds is that you can change your weapon if your feat/skill-selection needs a different weapon or you want to try a different tactic in a fight. Maybe less choice at chargen but more choice in the game.

 

I'm someone who doesn't play a single game 20 times. That my characters were so specialized to one weapon class that it didn't make any sense to switch/experiment isn't an advantage then.

 

Generally we still don't know enough of the system to make any conclusions about complexity. Possibly attributes influence skill and trait effects and the complexity comes from this.

 

I don't follow how shifting from weapons specializations to ONE STAT TO RULE THEM ALL in any way reduces dump stats. Wont everyone just pump that stat now?

 

You probably would do much damage if you only put your points in that stat but you wouldn't hit anyone. Also you would be prone to fall for feints of your enemies and would be easy to charm/put to sleep. And your own special abilities like crowd control or damaging multiple enemies would be weak or fail a lot (20 damage to two enemies is more than 25 damage to one).

Edited July 19, 2013 by jethro

[Prometheus]

I don't follow how shifting from weapons specializations to ONE STAT TO RULE THEM ALL in any way reduces dump stats. Wont everyone just pump that stat now?

No, if you pump all in one stat you will loose other stats for example: If you max your strength stat and min your accuracy stat you will miss very often. If you make one stat for magical and one for physical attacks, you will have one dump stat for a mage and one for the fighter.

[Gfted1]

No, if you pump all in one stat you will loose other stats for example: If you max your strength stat and min your accuracy stat you will miss very often. If you make one stat for magical and one for physical attacks, you will have one dump stat for a mage and one for the fighter.

I could be wrong but that's not how I understand the post by Sawyer. I read that as there will be one stat, lets call it "Damage", that will influence all damage output whether it be physical or magical. I don't know about you but that's one stat Im going to be pouring points into as it influences a gigantic portion of the entire game.

[Malekith]

 

No, if you pump all in one stat you will loose other stats for example: If you max your strength stat and min your accuracy stat you will miss very often. If you make one stat for magical and one for physical attacks, you will have one dump stat for a mage and one for the fighter.

I could be wrong but that's not how I understand the post by Sawyer. I read that as there will be one stat, lets call it "Damage", that will influence all damage output whether it be physical or magical. I don't know about you but that's one stat Im going to be pouring points into as it influences a gigantic portion of the entire game.

 

Having your attacks be insta kills won't help you very much if you can't hit a single thing, or if you can also be killed when a goblin comes near you. That is the point of Sawyer's system.

ALL stats are usefull, so treating even a single one as a dump stat and have it ignored, will causes trouble for your character. Remember in IE games characters with 19 STR/3CHA?

It wouldn't surprise me if having even a single stat at 3 will make your character crippled.

[Prometheus]

 

No, if you pump all in one stat you will loose other stats for example: If you max your strength stat and min your accuracy stat you will miss very often. If you make one stat for magical and one for physical attacks, you will have one dump stat for a mage and one for the fighter.

I could be wrong but that's not how I understand the post by Sawyer. I read that as there will be one stat, lets call it "Damage", that will influence all damage output whether it be physical or magical. I don't know about you but that's one stat Im going to be pouring points into as it influences a gigantic portion of the entire game.

 

Yes you will get a bonus to damage but your accuracy will be lower. the accuracy will also indirect influence how many damage you do.for example:

 

hugos stats are: 6 damage 0 accuracy.

bobs stats are: 0 damage 6 accuracy.

 

They both have equipped a 10 damage dagger and they both attack a rat ten times. Because Bob has higher accuracy he hits more often:

Hugo:2 hits(10 + 6(from his damage stat) damage per hit), 6 graces ((10 + 6 )/2) and 2 misses (0 damage per hit) = 80 damage

Bob: 7 hits (10 +0 damage per hit) and  3 Graces ((10 + 0)/2 damage per hit) = 85 damage

So in my example Bob would do more damage to this rat, because he hits more often than Hugo. but if the enemy has high DT the result changes for example the enemy has a DT from 5:

Hugo:2 hits(10 + 6 - 5(DT from the enemy) damage per hit), 6 graces ((10 + 6 )/2 -5) and 2 misses (0 damage per hit) = 40 damage

Bob: 7 hits (10 +0 -5 damage per hit) and  3 Graces ((10 + 0)/2 -5 damage per hit) = 35 damage

Edited July 19, 2013 by Prometheus

[Gfted1]

Why are you two specifically tying damage to accuracy? Is there some mechanic which dictates that if I pump Damage I MUST sacrifice Accuracy? Also, I don't understand the example "killed when a goblin comes near you". Is there now an "Armor/DR" skill that is also diametrically opposed to Damage?

[Malekith]

Loved everything except the part about PE being conservative as far as new IPs go. Why??????????

At least the part about the world supporting more alien/weird elements gives me hope for expansions/sequels.

As for the attributes, too early and too little info to know for sure.

[Malekith]

Why are you two specifically tying damage to accuracy? Is there some mechanic which dictates that if I pump Damage I MUST sacrifice Accuracy? Also, I don't understand the example "killed when a goblin comes near you". Is there now an "Armor/DR" skill that is also diametrically opposed to Damage?

Your hit-points maybe? Or even your saving throws? If a stat governs damage,another accuracy, you already don't have a ONE STAT TO RULE THEM ALL. Having your hit-points on another stat, stamina in another and soul-power in another automatically means that all are equally important with your damage stat. That's what i think Sawyer wants.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Malekith

[Shadenuat]

 

eah, even now I can recall good memories about variety of attribute builds in BG and IWD, fighters with wisdom and charisma, wizards with str...oh, wait.

I am playing a "fighter with wisdom and charisma" now in IWD2, called a paladin. 20 CHA for +5 saves, one of the best builds.

And the most broken build in BG2 was fighter/wizard with high STR&INT.

All types of characters won if they had high DEX and CON. Even some STR did't hurt for casters like clerics. There's a ton of builds where any stat is useful in 3d edition of D&D. All without "raise power to get +damage for everything".

Edited July 19, 2013 by Shadenuat

[Gfted1]

Your hit-points maybe? Or even your saving throws? If a stat governs damage,another accuracy, you already don't have a ONE STAT TO RULE THEM ALL. Having your hit-points on another stat, stamina in another and soul-power in another automatically means that all are equally important with your damage stat. That's what i think Sawyer wants.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. For me, in a combat centric game, I want to be able to bring the hurt and a mechanic who's sole purpose in life is to increase damage across the board is more important to me than +1 HP per level, or whatever similar mechanics you are referring to.

[Malekith]

 

Your hit-points maybe? Or even your saving throws? If a stat governs damage,another accuracy, you already don't have a ONE STAT TO RULE THEM ALL. Having your hit-points on another stat, stamina in another and soul-power in another automatically means that all are equally important with your damage stat. That's what i think Sawyer wants.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. For me, in a combat centric game, I want to be able to bring the hurt and a mechanic who's sole purpose in life is to increase damage across the board is more important to me than +1 HP per level, or whatever similar mechanics you are referring to.

 

It's all about how they balance it. It could easyly be +1 damage per point when a different stat will give +50 hitpoints per point. Given that the whole reason to this system is that Sawyer hates dump stats, i can't imagine that he will create a system that you can pour all your points in a single or even two stats and win the game.

[Infinitron]

Pretty much. Generally whenever Obsidian announce something new and unfamiliar like this, people immediately start crying "BUT JOSH THAT WON'T WORK BECAUSE IT'LL CAUSE X!!"...even though the stated reason for implementing the mechanic is to prevent X.

 

It's kind of funny. I mean, have some faith that the guy knows what he's doing.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Infinitron

[Gfted1]

It's all about how they balance it. It could easyly be +1 damage per point when a different stat will give +50 hitpoints per point. Given that the whole reason to this system is that Sawyer hates dump stats, i can't imagine that he will create a system that you can pour all your points in a single or even two stats and win the game.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. To me, it seems like hes simply renaming D&D mechanics: Attack of Opportunity is now Disengagement Attack, Berserker is now whatever they are calling Barbarian rage, Weapons Specializations are now all rolled into a generic "Damage". Choosing a weapons specialization never before sacrificed other mechanics but I think you are right that these mechanics will be tweaked to punish players if they do not spend points in a Jack-of-all-trades kind of build. Adequate at everything, great at nothing.

[Ignatius]

My ideal would be that the passives are interesting enough and interact with stats in a way that is compelling. So that building your stats in a certain way open up varying play styles within a class. For example, passives/traits that rely on certain stat thresholds. Perhaps a passive that increase Rapier damage/attacks per round that rely on increasing whatever the equivalent DEX stat is?

 

A lot of problems with stat systems of old is that from the get-go you were pigeon holed into a set group of stats and just mindlessly increased those the entire game with no outside influences governing a shift in what you want to achieve with your character. It's just straight up min/maxing with very little room for differing approaches. If Josh does manage to avoid dump stat systems, it would create more options for players, which is great.

 

The worst situation, and what everyone seems to be afraid of is that the system relies on some form of herp-derp put point here to increase damage system. Which is dreadfully dull. The vague explanation actually reminds me of Diablo 3, which is quite honestly terrifying. And I agree that the stats need to feed into the fantasy of these games, having these all encompassing stats waters down the classes.

 

But we know so little after all. Waiting for mega Sawyer post explaining himself here, lol

Edited July 19, 2013 by Ignatius

[Hormalakh]

You know what I would like? I would like the attributes to play as a balance between non-combat and combat type attributes.

Have a few attributes that affect your combat abilities and a few that affect the story you get and make them equivalent in how often they are "tested" in the game.

 

So, very broadly, you have your Combat-output (damage output, magic output) attribute and your combat-input (health, stamina, constitution, etc) attribute. Then you have the story-mental attribute (charisma, intelligence, wisdom, how likely you are to be successful at a particular non-combat challenge) and story-creativity attribute (number of different choices you'd have during non-combat based challenges).

 

it doesn't have to be specific to what i just described, but something that allows your characters to have a little more flavor than just combat-important attributes.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Infinitron]

You know what I would like? I would like the attributes to play as a balance between non-combat and combat type attributes.

Have a few attributes that affect your combat abilities and a few that affect the story you get and make them equivalent in how often they are "tested" in the game.

 

So, very broadly, you have your Combat-output (damage output, magic output) attribute and your combat-input (health, stamina, constitution, etc) attribute. Then you have the story-mental attribute (charisma, intelligence, wisdom, how likely you are to be successful at a particular non-combat challenge) and story-creativity attribute (number of different choices you'd have during non-combat based challenges).

 

Wouldn't that be basically turning the "story-mental" attributes into "conversation winner" social skills?

[Hormalakh]

 

You know what I would like? I would like the attributes to play as a balance between non-combat and combat type attributes.

Have a few attributes that affect your combat abilities and a few that affect the story you get and make them equivalent in how often they are "tested" in the game.

 

So, very broadly, you have your Combat-output (damage output, magic output) attribute and your combat-input (health, stamina, constitution, etc) attribute. Then you have the story-mental attribute (charisma, intelligence, wisdom, how likely you are to be successful at a particular non-combat challenge) and story-creativity attribute (number of different choices you'd have during non-combat based challenges).

 

Wouldn't that be basically turning the "story-mental" attributes into "conversation winner" social skills?

 

 

as the combat-output would turn the attributes into "combat winner" skills? yeah, i guess so.

 

i haven't fully thought this out, but i just wanted to throw it out there. i don't think every attribute has to be combat-based is all i'm saying. but at the same time the devs have to make sure that the non-combat portions of the game are just as important as the combat portions of the game.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Infinitron]

You know that's not the same thing.

 

Anyway, yeah, that's not going to happen. In all likelihood, all the attributes will have combat and maybe some non-combat applications.

[Hormalakh]

then i guess i'd have to say that there really is no point in having attributes in the first place. we have the talents and the skills in the game already. just make the attributes flavor for character creation. the game isn't going to be completely combat is it? there are aspects to the game that are more "adventure-based" and those should be reflected in what I see the attribute mechanic as: an over-arching system that deals with RPG content as a whole.

 

basically that is what distinguishes an RPG from a MOBA or a RTS-based "RPG".

Edited July 19, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Infinitron]

then i guess i'd have to say that there really is no point in having attributes in the first place. we have the talents and the skills in the game already. just make the attributes flavor for character creation.

 

I agree that is kind of what they seem like at the moment, although we need more information. Months ago I asked Josh whether the game would even have attributes, because it seemed like it would work perfectly fine without them.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Infinitron

[Hormalakh]

http://www.fudgery.net/omnium-gatherum/lag.html

[Prometheus]

 

as the combat-output would turn the attributes into "combat winner" skills? yeah, i guess so.

 

i haven't fully thought this out, but i just wanted to throw it out there. i don't think every attribute has to be combat-based is all i'm saying. but at the same time the devs have to make sure that the non-combat portions of the game are just as important as the combat portions of the game.

 

So that one character can take all the non combat attributes and dump the combat attributtes and the other characters will dump the non combat skills?

If I understand your idea correct it would work for a single character game but not for a party game.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Prometheus

[pl1982]

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see. To me, it seems like hes simply renaming D&D mechanics: Attack of Opportunity is now Disengagement Attack, Berserker is now whatever they are calling Barbarian rage, Weapons Specializations are now all rolled into a generic "Damage". Choosing a weapons specialization never before sacrificed other mechanics but I think you are right that these mechanics will be tweaked to punish players if they do not spend points in a Jack-of-all-trades kind of build. Adequate at everything, great at nothing.

 

To be honest...I would not mind if the character progression system of PE is 99% akin to D&D3.5E. I personally think D&D third edition (and its extension 3.5) is an amazing system (far better than 2nd Edition). The only thing of D&D I would want changed (which they are doing anyway) is the Vancian system of magic. Other than that: Mr Sawyer and crew can copy D&D third edition all they like! The guys behind third edition knew what they were doing imho (feats, skill system mostly not tied to class, attribute progression system, DC20 & the structure of roll bonuses/penalties, etc.).

[Tale]

 

then i guess i'd have to say that there really is no point in having attributes in the first place. we have the talents and the skills in the game already. just make the attributes flavor for character creation.

 

I agree that is kind of what they seem like at the moment, although we need more information. Months ago I asked Josh whether the game would even have attributes, because it seemed like it would work perfectly fine without them.

 

Stats seem like something you are required to have for the genre, even if you don't need them, at this point. Just because the audience takes it as sacred.

 

Anyway, I can't wait until we find out more.

[Valorian]

  Hey! How's summer going?

I see nothing's changed. Sawyer (and Tim?) are still "fixing" things that:

a) don't need fixing

b) need fixing, but they try to fix it by throwing bleach on it

This is a case of b).


Balancing attributes/ability scores and removing dump stat elements is important, yes, but you don't do that by renaming the stats and making them exceptionally nonsensical: a stat that affects both damage of everything (...and healing), for instance.

This is not a matter of OOOHHH NOO IT'S A CHANGE! It's a matter of things getting out of hand by making horribly little sense.
People do have some basic characteristics such as strength, agility, intelligence, resistance to pain (let's call it constitution) and I believe it's very good to have it reflected in an RPG. It's a way to make the characters more real, they're still virtual, but you have something concrete to asssess their basic characteristics.

On the other hand... Oh, my character has a universal damage stat! How osooom and innnovashun!

 Also, all stats don't need to be equally useful for everyone.


This won't fix what you're trying to fix because all stats WILL NEVER BE even comparably useful for everyone.

You could have fixed it by, guess what, designing classical stats so that they're useful for every class, not destroying them and using something that makes less than 0 sense. 

E.g.

See that interesting xy talent? Well, you need a certain intelligence score to pick it.
Want to be better at using yy talent? A high wisdom will add some accuracy or damage to it.

You just need a bit of creativity and imagination. Not straight boring idiotic damage / accuracy / etc. "attributes".

 

Generally whenever Obsidian announce something __________ ____*, people immediately start crying

*Extraordinarily silly.

And that's ok.
You cry a lot too.