Fulfilment site?

[Quadrone]

Also have to jump in here and say that while Obsidians actual work on PE looks stellar , the way they handeled the fullfilment site is... shoddy.

No official statement that I know of about why it takes them so long and when we can expect it.

 

As a Paypal backer the only proof that I backed PE that I have right now is a printout of the donation from Paypal which makes me kinda antsy. I'd like to have a place I can check if Obsidian acknowledges that they owe me one copy of their game.

If I may be selfish a bit more, I'd also like that VIP Backer Badge i was promised... not gonna have much use for it once the game is out knowing my own posting habits.

[Lephys]

^ For what it's worth, there was an official statement about the fact that they pretty much only have 1 person available to work on it right now. Again, the only fault on their part, thus far, has been announcing that they'll update us "soon" on the progress of the fulfillment site... several months ago. Faulty estimation. Not ideal, but stuff happens. It's not as if they said "Yeah, we have a whole TEAM of people on it, and it's 99% done! Should be up tomorrow!", then were never heard from again.

[Sacred_Path]

Taking your sweet time to deliver goods is surely something you can be blamed for, wether or not you actually gave an EDT.

 

As for badges, I'm sure they'll coincide with the beta, because that's what makes sense.

[Lephys]

Sure, if you've just got the goods sitting there at your feet, and all you need to do is take them to a shipper and say "Hey, please deliver these," and you're simply failing to do so.

 

When you have to produce all the goods AND get an entire site built to collect/finalize recipient data and allow for upgrades and such (necessitating even MORE production of goods), all while working on an entire video game project with a relatively small budget, I'm not really sure "taking your sweet time" is an accurate description at that point.

[Sacred_Path]

Sure, if you've just got the goods sitting there at your feet, and all you need to do is take them to a shipper and say "Hey, please deliver these," and you're simply failing to do so.

 

When you have to produce all the goods AND get an entire site built to collect/finalize recipient data and allow for upgrades and such (necessitating even MORE production of goods), all while working on an entire video game project with a relatively small budget, I'm not really sure "taking your sweet time" is an accurate description at that point.

I didn't say I actually want them to focus less on the game and more on the backer site, I simply stated that I can understand customers wishing for a speedy fulfilment of all promises; and that includes miniscule things like badges, even without any binding contracts.

[Lephys]

I didn't allege that you did. I only pointed out the difference.

 

I can understand people desiring for fulfillment to be going faster than it is. What I don't understand is people expecting it to be going faster than it is, much less to suggest it's somehow wrong of Obsidian to be taking this long.

 

I wish P:E were complete and ready to play right now, but I don't think that it should be done by now.

[Sacred_Path]

I didn't allege that you did. I only pointed out the difference.

 

I can understand people desiring for fulfillment to be going faster than it is. What I don't understand is people expecting it to be going faster than it is, much less to suggest it's somehow wrong of Obsidian to be taking this long.

 

I wish P:E were complete and ready to play right now, but I don't think that it should be done by now.

I think a lot of people (including me) don't know exactly how many people are working on P:E, and what reasons have so far prohibited say, one or two of them from working on the backer site and making it go live. Ensuring the functionality of doors may take precedence over that, but I think customers are generally entitled to wanting to get their stuff done.

 

Hey, Josh is busy crunching numbers and stuff, but shouldn't his experience allow him to whip up a backer site in his spare time? Yeah? No? Maybe.

[Lephys]

Step 1) Don't know details of situation...

Step 2) ...

Step 3) Entitlement to demands.

 

Seems legit...

[Sacred_Path]

Step 1) Don't know details of situation...

Step 2) ...

Step 3) Entitlement to demands.

 

Seems legit...

The details of the situation are indeed quite irrelevant As it's more like:

 

1) get promises without details

 

2) hand over money beforehand

 

3) feel entitled to have promises fulfilled

 

 

If manpower was the problem (which I doubt), I certainly wouldn't care about the details, because I do know for a fact that Obsidian isn't just made up of the P:E team, so it would simply be a matter of delegation.

[Lephys]

People can feel as entitled as they'd like to have those promises with unspecified timeframes fulfilled all they want. I suppose they're simply emphasizing, in this thread, their feelings of that entitlement, and not in any way assuming something they don't actually know by suggesting that the unspecified amount of time should've already elapsed by now?

 

I suppose if Obsidian were throwing a party, but they didn't know when it was going to be, yet, then we're entitled to invitations, RIGHT NOW, that allow us to RSVP.

[Sacred_Path]

People can feel as entitled as they'd like to have those promises with unspecified timeframes fulfilled all they want. I suppose they're simply emphasizing, in this thread, their feelings of that entitlement, and not in any way assuming something they don't actually know by suggesting that the unspecified amount of time should've already elapsed by now?

If I tell you to wait for me because I'll come around and then I show up 12 hours later, you're not gonna be mad because I didn't mention a time so I can't be late.

 

I suppose if Obsidian were throwing a party, but they didn't know when it was going to be, yet, then we're entitled to invitations, RIGHT NOW, that allow us to RSVP.

I strongly suspect that Obs have had a rough idea, from the beginning, of when the backer site should go live (and even if not a specific time, then a specific set of circumstances), so I think you're falling flat there.

 

I think you're missing the point anyway. I'd never debate the fact that my customers are entitled to their expectations that I evoked with my unspecific advertising.

[Lephys]

If I tell you that I'm going to, at some point in the future meet up with you, and you have absolutely no idea when that will be, then why would you just stand there actively waiting on me to arrive, then get mad at me when you wasted your own time foregoing other things just to wait on my arrival?

 

What you're debating is rather unclear, at this point. All I've said is that there's no logical justification for suggesting that Obsidian is somehow going against their promise by not having the fulfillment site up by now when they never guaranteed to have it up by now. People are quite literally suggesting "it shouldn't take this long."

 

Could they probably update their current estimation of its status, and provide us with whatever they do currently know? Yes. I never said otherwise. Did they suggest that they'd have more info "soon," a few months ago, and now we still don't have more info? Yes. Neither of those means that it's wrong or somehow problematic for the fulfillment site to not yet be completed. Though it might've been some minor degree of wrong for them to have mis-estimated the relative timeframe of additional info, and/or to simply slack in providing us with that info.

 

The info part I agree with, and simply don't personally fault them too highly for it. The completion of the fulfillment site bit is completely irrational, as we have no reason that suggests it should be farther along than however far along it is at the moment. This will be true until they go back in time and guarantee some timeframe on its completion that ends today or earlier.

[Sacred_Path]

If I tell you that I'm going to, at some point in the future meet up with you, and you have absolutely no idea when that will be, then why would you just stand there actively waiting on me to arrive, then get mad at me when you wasted your own time foregoing other things just to wait on my arrival?

I'm simply going to quote this here:

 

The last official information we ever got, however, was merely "soon!"

as I haven't closely followed the plans for the backer site. So, my example would be more appropriate than yours

 

What you're debating is rather unclear, at this point. All I've said is that there's no logical justification for suggesting that Obsidian is somehow going against their promise by not having the fulfillment site up by now when they never guaranteed to have it up by now. People are quite literally suggesting "it shouldn't take this long."

We can objectively say that, if you're bound on putting up a website, it can be done in much, much less than a year, so at the very least, expecting it to be done in less than a year is, by itself, very reasonable.

 

The very lack of information that your argument rests on OTOH is another thing that frustrates people about this. If they had said from the very beginning that the website will go live at the point of, say, beta release, there would be no complaints (fewer, at any rate). That's why I mentioned unspecific advertising.

 

Could they probably update their current estimation of its status, and provide us with whatever they do currently know? Yes. I never said otherwise. Did they suggest that they'd have more info "soon," a few months ago, and now we still don't have more info? Yes. Neither of those means that it's wrong or somehow problematic for the fulfillment site to not yet be completed.

If backers would welcome a means to have a better overview of their pledge and possibly a way to easily modify it, then yes, the lack of such an option is problematic.

 

Though it might've been some minor degree of wrong for them to have mis-estimated the relative timeframe of additional info, and/or to simply slack in providing us with that info.

Yeah, that's why no one is screaming for their blood or polishing uzis. It's a minor inconvenience. I don't know what made you think otherwise.

[Lephys]

Yours is much more appropriate than mine... because when someone on the internet tells you "soon," you have to go out of your way to wait for them at a specific location, just as if someone had said "wait here for me, I'll be right back" and never returned. Astoundingly accurate. I'm glad you actually took the time to specifically point out how accurate it was, or I may not have noticed.

 

Lack of info is frustrating but doesn't mean site is late or that non-specific promises were a lie. I'm glad you like to take the time to completely rephrase all of that rather than simply saying "I agree."

 

And... wait a minute, you thought I thought someone was screaming for blood and/or polishing an uzi, and that it was a major inconvenience? I don't know what made you think that.

 

Also, you're clearly locked into some sort of disagreement with me and/or simply aren't fond of the manner in which I present my 2 cents on the matter. So, this is getting us nowhere, and simply cluttering up the thread.

 

Feel free to pm me if you'd care to debate further.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Lephys

[Sacred_Path]

Yours is much more appropriate than mine... because when someone on the internet tells you "soon," you have to go out of your way to wait for them at a specific location, just as if someone had said "wait here for me, I'll be right back" and never returned. Astoundingly accurate. I'm glad you actually took the time to specifically point out how accurate it was, or I may not have noticed.

Your example implied that we actually had no clue at all of when the backer site was supposed to go up. Of course, "soon" is still pretty relative, mirite?

 

Lack of info is frustrating but doesn't mean site is late or that non-specific promises were a lie. I'm glad you like to take the time to completely rephrase all of that rather than simply saying "I agree."

I never said they lied, I do expect that the site will go up at some point.

 

And... wait a minute, you thought I thought someone was screaming for blood and/or polishing an uzi, and that it was a major inconvenience? I don't know what made you think that.

The info part I agree with, and simply don't personally fault them too highly for it.

You personally, as in, in contrast to others ITT. Of which I can see no proof, reading through the posts here.

[Ieo]

Thinking more on this and considering that Wasteland2's fulfillment has now been outsourced due to volume, I think it's reasonable to assume that: 

 

The "one person" information we got from Obsidian or whatever some time ago is null and void, especially when said person is supposed to be working hard on the game itself anyway. Having a website front-end and database back-end capable of handling over 70k backers' data AND taking into account actual distribution of material goods is outside Obsidian's capacity short of hiring a whole bunch more people. It makes sense, I think, that a fully outsourced option from data-gathering to packaging to distribution in a warehouse environment is going to be more efficient than recreating the wheel from scratch in-house and dealing with shipping logistics on an international scale.

 

Obsidian just needs to admit this and get into talks with potential outsourcing partners  ; I expect a cut from the Kickstarter will necessarily go towards that, too, but that's a matter of balance, I suppose. 

[C2B]

I expect a cut from the Kickstarter will necessarily go towards that, too, but that's a matter of balance, I suppose.

No, it shouldn't. Why would you even remotly want that?

 

That would be bad money management. People invested in them making a game, not a backer site.

Edited September 13, 2013 by C2B

[jethro]

 

I expect a cut from the Kickstarter will necessarily go towards that, too, but that's a matter of balance, I suppose.

No, it shouldn't. Why would you even remotly want that?

 

That would be bad money management. People invested in them making a game, not a backer site.

 

 

They also invested 5% of their total backing amount into amazon, 5% into kickstarter and I don't know how much for postage and random loot that collects dust on their wall or in a cupboard. Sadly a kickstarter campaign has a lot of non-game-related costs and the understanding is that projects don't need to loan money from the bank to finance kickstarter costs itself.

 

So the only question is if fullfillment is done completely inhouse or partly outsourced. Protest would only make sense if outsourcing cost more than inhouse fullfillment.

[C2B]

 

 

I expect a cut from the Kickstarter will necessarily go towards that, too, but that's a matter of balance, I suppose.

No, it shouldn't. Why would you even remotly want that?

That would be bad money management. People invested in them making a game, not a backer site.

 

They also invested 5% of their total backing amount into amazon, 5% into kickstarter and I don't know how much for postage and random loot that collects dust on their wall or in a cupboard. Sadly a kickstarter campaign has a lot of non-game-related costs and the understanding is that projects don't need to loan money from the bank to finance kickstarter costs itself.

 

So the only question is if fullfillment is done completely inhouse or partly outsourced. Protest would only make sense if outsourcing cost more than inhouse fullfillment.

Yes, that doesn't say.... anything? Keeping these costs low is the point. *Well, we already have these costs so.... Let's make more of it" is BAD money management.

 

And they didn't *invest* that in Amazon. What a weird phrasing. That's a fee.

 

Anyway, they are working on it. We know that much and we even know who is. It can still fullfill its function for quite a while, so there's no real use in putting on pressure. And demanding to invest money into it to get it finished faster is just counterproductive.

Edited September 13, 2013 by C2B

[jethro]

Either I misunderstood your point or you misunderstood mine and Leos.

 

Leo said that if they outsource the fullfillment to a partner equipped to do that efficiently then the payment to the outsourcing partner would be paid from the kickstarter money. You seemed to refute this and called this bad management. I don't see why? Could you elaborate?

Edited September 13, 2013 by jethro

[Ieo]

 

 

 

I expect a cut from the Kickstarter will necessarily go towards that, too, but that's a matter of balance, I suppose.

No, it shouldn't. Why would you even remotly want that?

That would be bad money management. People invested in them making a game, not a backer site.

 

They also invested 5% of their total backing amount into amazon, 5% into kickstarter and I don't know how much for postage and random loot that collects dust on their wall or in a cupboard. Sadly a kickstarter campaign has a lot of non-game-related costs and the understanding is that projects don't need to loan money from the bank to finance kickstarter costs itself.

 

So the only question is if fullfillment is done completely inhouse or partly outsourced. Protest would only make sense if outsourcing cost more than inhouse fullfillment.

Yes, that doesn't say.... anything? Keeping these costs low is the point. *Well, we already have these costs so.... Let's make more of it" is BAD money management.

 

And they didn't *invest* that in Amazon. What a weird phrasing. That's a fee.

 

Anyway, they are working on it. We know that much and we even know who is. It can still fullfill its function for quite a while, so there's no real use in putting on pressure. And demanding to invest money into it to get it finished faster is just counterproductive.

 

 

You are indeed missing the entire point. Also, try to think about the big picture just a little. I get the feeling logistics is definitely not your strong point.

 

Read about the Deep Silver arrangement:

 

Wasteland 2 was one of the first mega-successes of the Kickstarter boom, and a new announcement today puts the title one step closer to release. This morning, inXile announced that it has entered into a distribution agreement with Saints Row IV publisher Deep Silver.

 

The arrangement is similar to EA's now defunct Partner program. Deep Silver will only be handling retail distribution, Kickstarter reward fulfillment, and assistance with quality assurance testing for localized international releases. Creative control remains with inXile.

 

According to inXile, this allows the developer to focus on their core competencies (making the game) while offloading distribution and fulfillment to another entity that handles these elements as part of its core business.

 

 

Our Take

This is a brilliant move by both inXile and Deep Silver. This type of arrangement allows the developer to focus on making the game without inefficient and costly distribution. Deep Silver will be able to leverage its extensive international profile and expertise on a contractual basis, which helps defray overhead costs of running the business.

 

Most importantly, this arrangement does not impact the creative product in any way. This isn't a traditional publishing agreement. It's a contractual arrangement for a specific scope of services.

 

 

Then my next questions to you are these, since you think it's such a terrible idea:

 

Let's say only a fraction of the PE backers requested physical items, like 10000 unique addresses out of the 70k+. The different physical items will require probably more than one printer/producer. Multiple physical items will need to be shipped to a holding area to be packaged into the backer "orders." Is Obsidian's studio large enough to house all of that? How many people will Obsidian need to hire to package and ship 10k orders? What is a reasonable amount of time backers can be expected to wait for their items after the game is announced complete? What carrier corporate services (contractual) will Obsidian need for large-scale distribution across country borders, if they don't have agreements already in place? 

 

When you add in all the time, work, money from Kickstarter funds that would go into figuring out distro above and beyond merely a fulfillment website, please, do explain why hiring an outsource option to cover those bases would be a terrible idea. By the way, PE got more backers than Wasteland 2.

[C2B]

Either I misunderstood your point or you misunderstood mine and Leos.

 

Leo said that if they outsource the fullfillment to a partner equipped to do that efficiently then the payment to the outsourcing partner would be paid from the kickstarter money. You seemed to refute this and called this bad management. I don't see why? Could you elaborate?

 

A: It would be if additional money is invested. Which is what I'm opposed to and highlighted.

 

B: They have already been working on the backer site for nearly a year. What do you think happens with the ressources utilised? Even if it is only Darren (and maybe an intern), that still accumalates. At this point it wouldn't make much sense anymore to use an outside contractor in the first place anyway. Granted, they may have done that before, but that wasn't your point.

 

Also, we don't actually know if Kickstarter money was used so far for the backer site itself. Considering its Obsidian and especially Darren they may have gone for their own pockets.

 

@Ieo What are you now talking about rewards? Nothing of that is relevant to this particular case (Which is the backer site itself). Unless we make two steps forward and assume they haven't prepared anything(Which we know they actually did!!!!!) till the site launches.  And thank you for the insult. Should I start making assumptions about you?

 

Edit: Of course, there is additional work to be done after. But, we haven't reached that particular deadline yet.

Edited September 13, 2013 by C2B

[C2B]

Eh, looking at Ieo's post history I have misunderstood due to talking about fullfilment and the backer site as if they were the same thing. My bad.

 

In that case we actually know nothing about how Obsidian's going to handle it as most of the information relates just to the backer/fullfilment site. They have sent stuff out before though with rewards. (In December) And they may as well have hired outside help already on that.

 

Those things aren't really the same. W2's Backer site is managed by InXile last I checked. While Deep Silver does the fullfilment itself.

Edited September 13, 2013 by C2B

[Ieo]

Eh, looking at Ieo's post history I have misunderstood due to talking about fullfilment and the backer site as if they were the same thing. My bad.

 

In that case we actually know nothing about how Obsidian's going to handle it as most of the information relates just to the backer/fullfilment site. They have sent stuff out before though with rewards. (In December) And they may as well have hired outside help already on that.

 

Those things aren't really the same. W2's Backer site is managed by InXile last I checked. While Deep Silver does the fullfilment itself.

I thought Wasteland 2's data entry was also being handled by DS, so that's a misunderstanding on my part: other Kickstarters have outsourced the entire fulfillment process including the initial data entry (it seems like a natural package to me). 

 

But even with that, consider that the Wasteland 2 Kickstarter ended in April 2012 with over 60k backers, and they got their fulfillment website up in July 2012. That's still a minus on Obsidian's part.

[C2B]

 

But even with that, consider that the Wasteland 2 Kickstarter ended in April 2012 with over 60k backers, and they got their fulfillment website up in July 2012. That's still a minus on Obsidian's part.

 

 

Project Eternity's backer site is a lot more ambitious though (AFAIK it's going to be much more than a simple fullfilment site and be a solid base for future projects after Eternity + maybe other things)

 

That's the reason given (apart from being a one-man programming job)  why it takes so long.

Edited September 13, 2013 by C2B