Syrian civil war

[Walsingham]

Clearly it represents on perspective, and one hardly conducive to affectionate positivity. But it is relevant, by way of an illustration. I don't find it at all hard to believe.

 

~

 

I'm trying to find some page refs now, but in general I can genuinely recommend reading the Joint Document on British National Security. It's very clear and logical and sensible. And freely made available by the MoD.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/33697/20111130jdp001_bdd_Ed4.pdf

Edited September 10, 2013 by Walsingham

[BruceVC]

Clearly it represents on perspective, and one hardly conducive to affectionate positivity. But it is relevant, by way of an illustration. I don't find it at all hard to believe.

 

I do believe it, that's not the issue but the perspective it creates for the rebels. It will be seen by most as a representation of the entire rebel movement and enforce GD point about the reasons for not going into Syria. And obviously I disagree with that

[Walsingham]

 

Clearly it represents on perspective, and one hardly conducive to affectionate positivity. But it is relevant, by way of an illustration. I don't find it at all hard to believe.

 

I do believe it, that's not the issue but the perspective it creates for the rebels. It will be seen by most as a representation of the entire rebel movement and enforce GD point about the reasons for not going into Syria. And obviously I disagree with that

 

But look, hold on. You will concede that it is at least possible that the rebels are pretty well all Qaeda fundis. Does that change our response?

[Malcador]

I do believe it, that's not the issue but the perspective it creates for the rebels. It will be seen by most as a representation of the entire rebel movement and enforce GD point about the reasons for not going into Syria. And obviously I disagree with that

And maybe it is an accurate representation of them. Then what ?

[Morgoth]

America can only redeem herself at this point by completely severing all links to the Israelis and the Saudis. Then natural balance in the ME reagion can heal again.

[Walsingham]

 

America can only redeem herself at this point by completely severing all links to the Israelis and the Saudis. Then natural balance in the ME reagion can heal again.

 

 

WTF are you talking about?

 

'Natural balance'?

 

This isn't a New Age crystal healing seminar. Syria's not at war because its chakras are misaligned.

[Malcador]

America can only redeem herself at this point by completely severing all links to the Israelis and the Saudis. Then natural balance in the ME reagion can heal again.

Would be interesting to see, I guess only Syria might try tangling with Israel. Or Israel decides to use those nukes it denies having.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Clearly it represents on perspective, and one hardly conducive to affectionate positivity. But it is relevant, by way of an illustration. I don't find it at all hard to believe.

 

I do believe it, that's not the issue but the perspective it creates for the rebels. It will be seen by most as a representation of the entire rebel movement and enforce GD point about the reasons for not going into Syria. And obviously I disagree with that

 

But look, hold on. You will concede that it is at least possible that the rebels are pretty well all Qaeda fundis. Does that change our response?

 

 

Unfortunately I won't concede that as then I would be forced to sadly fall into the camp opposed to intervention as helping Al-Qaeda is worse than Assad staying in power.

I obviously reject that view as it can't proven and doesn't make sense

[BruceVC]

 

America can only redeem herself at this point by completely severing all links to the Israelis and the Saudis. Then natural balance in the ME reagion can heal again.

Would be interesting to see, I guess only Syria might try tangling with Israel. Or Israel decides to use those nukes it denies having.

 

 

Malc I thought we agreed you would stop believing these conspiracy theories

[kgambit]

 

 

Clearly it represents on perspective, and one hardly conducive to affectionate positivity. But it is relevant, by way of an illustration. I don't find it at all hard to believe.

 

I do believe it, that's not the issue but the perspective it creates for the rebels. It will be seen by most as a representation of the entire rebel movement and enforce GD point about the reasons for not going into Syria. And obviously I disagree with that

 

But look, hold on. You will concede that it is at least possible that the rebels are pretty well all Qaeda fundis. Does that change our response?

 

 

Yes it is possible (although highly unlikely given some of the known funding sources in this conflict).  Should it change our response? No.  Not in and of itself.

 

The source of funding is relevant only if a group allows the funders to dictate their fundamental ideology and behavior.  If the group is comprised of extremist jihadists does it make a difference if Qatar, Saudi Arabia, AQIP or whoever funds them?  What matters is if the group in question retains its original motivation and behavior.   Conversely, does it matter who funds a secular opposition group if they remain secular and don't resort to extremist behavior?

Edited September 10, 2013 by kgambit

[kgambit]

 

 

America can only redeem herself at this point by completely severing all links to the Israelis and the Saudis. Then natural balance in the ME reagion can heal again.

 

 

WTF are you talking about?

 

'Natural balance'?

 

This isn't a New Age crystal healing seminar. Syria's not at war because its chakras are misaligned.

 

 

 

ROTFLMAO

 

That just made my effing day ....... 

 

well played, sir

Edited September 10, 2013 by kgambit

[Malcador]

It's hardly a conspiracy theory.

[Morgoth]

 

 

America can only redeem herself at this point by completely severing all links to the Israelis and the Saudis. Then natural balance in the ME reagion can heal again.

 

 

WTF are you talking about?

 

'Natural balance'?

 

This isn't a New Age crystal healing seminar. Syria's not at war because its chakras are misaligned.

 

 

Someday Wals, when you get sober again, I might be able to decipher your babbling.

[obyknven]

President Obama needs your help starting World War III! Find out how you can help!

http://youtu.be/z-sdO6pwVHQ

[Zoraptor]

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that Obama looks weak because he is weak. His natural instinct is to seek and build concensus rather than to decide stuff himself, and that approach is badly at odds with the (from the outside, highly disfunctional seeming) US political system which seems to reward people who do the political equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and shout "nyah nyah nyah can't hear you!". The really telling thing though is the troubles he's had selling his visions in this way even when he had majorities in both the senate (albeit not a supermajority) and house.

 

This whole saga really illustrates that he just isn't very good at deciding stuff. He drew a red line then had to act when it was publicly broken. But it looks very bad because they're claiming that the red line had already been crossed multiple times, he doesn't have the backing he needs either from the public or lawmakers, his natural instinct was still to seek the warm protective blanket of Congress approval as legitimisation despite hinting that their decision would not be honoured, his team and his public announcements have been inconsistent in message and occasionally mutually incompatible and he's now ended up in a bail out option that certainly appears to have been an ad hoc solution prompted by one of his subordinates wandering (or wondering, even) off message again. Control of the issue has been handed to the Russians and Syrians on a platter, and he knows it. No number of deliberately inflammatory French draft resolutions will change that.

 

In direct response to what Bruce asked, it is an approach that I like and I wish would be used more often, but with the proviso that there are obvious reasons why it isn't done that way. Politicians should seek the approval and consent of the people on significant issues rather than acting as an elective dictatorship. But the problem is that while Obama may have the best of intentions and want to check the democratic boxes the system he is operating in- and indeed, the system most politicians operate in- encourages and rewards intransigence; plus that approach is at odds with being an Executive who Draws Red Lines. They aren't really red lines if you're going to have to then ask permission from someone else to act on them.

 

It's hardly a conspiracy theory.

Syria won't fight Israel under pretty much any circumstances. They'd lose, badly, even if they weren't fighting a civil war as well, plus it would guarantee US intervention, even if you had a neo isolationist (Rand Paul? so practically unlikely) as President.

 

You can make a nice parallel between Israel's 'theoretical' nuclear stockpile and Syria's 'theoretical' stockpile though-since they both exist for the same reason (if we look like losing a war we'll nuke Damascus/ if we look like losing a war we'll gas Tel Aviv), are both undeclared, both 'illegal', both never been used (r00fles!) etc.

[Guard Dog]

Obama has come out of this looking like a total fool. I already had less than no respect for the man so I can hardly say I'm surprised this was botched. He would have been far wiser to have just stayed out of it and if he said anything at all just say the US was concerned and were looking into it. Instead he blustered, threatened, vacillated, then backed off and was clearly outmaneuvered. Whatever credibility he had left both at home and abroad are gone. While I am happy we are not committing military assets to a fight that has nothing to do with us and does us no favors whoever wins I am a little upset that my President and country come off looking like an idiot.

[Malcador]

 

It's hardly a conspiracy theory.

Syria won't fight Israel under pretty much any circumstances. They'd lose, badly, even if they weren't fighting a civil war as well, plus it would guarantee US intervention, even if you had a neo isolationist (Rand Paul? so practically unlikely) as President.

 

You can make a nice parallel between Israel's 'theoretical' nuclear stockpile and Syria's 'theoretical' stockpile though-since they both exist for the same reason (if we look like losing a war we'll nuke Damascus/ if we look like losing a war we'll gas Tel Aviv), are both undeclared, both 'illegal', both never been used (r00fles!) etc.

 

Thought he meant my statement on Israel's nuclear weapons. Guessing that if the US stopped caring about Israel, any future war probably would be with Syria if any state were to.

[NOK222]

Remember when we elected men for presidents?

 

 

Of course, he was an imperialist and a poacher, but that's only wrong now!

[Orogun01]

You forgot that he was a liar.

[Zoraptor]

Thought he meant my statement on Israel's nuclear weapons.

 

Really? But everyone knows that Israel has nukes. It's more of a conspiracy theory to think they don't.

[obyknven]

Meanwhile Chinese military forces join to Russians in Mediterranian sea. 

 

A Chinese landing craft with 1,000 marines for Syria – reports DEBKAfile September 6, 2013, 12:31 PM (GMT+02:00)
Western naval sources reported Friday that a Chinese landing craft, the Jinggangshan, with a 1,000-strong marine battalion had reached the Red Sea en route for the Mediterranean off Syria. According to DEBKAfile, Beijing has already deployed a number of warships opposite Syria in secret. If the latest report is confirmed, this will be the largest Chinese deployment in the Middle East in its naval history.

After this US government suddenly become peacefull.

Edited September 11, 2013 by LadyCrimson
language

[Walsingham]

 

Thought he meant my statement on Israel's nuclear weapons.

 

Really? But everyone knows that Israel has nukes. It's more of a conspiracy theory to think they don't.

 

 

Really? My 'pet' conspiracy theory - everyone has at least on - is that your man who was imprisoned for whistle-blowing was Israel's cheap nuke deterrent. Show someone you KNOW is going to tell just enough that he will tell. You generate sufficient doubt over your capability to provide a deterrent, and it costs almost nothing compared with an actual deterrent.

[HoonDing]

Meanwhile Chinese military forces join to Russians in Mediterranian sea. 

 

A Chinese landing craft with 1,000 marines for Syria – reports DEBKAfile September 6, 2013, 12:31 PM (GMT+02:00)

Western naval sources reported Friday that a Chinese landing craft, the Jinggangshan, with a 1,000-strong marine battalion had reached the Red Sea en route for the Mediterranean off Syria. According to DEBKAfile, Beijing has already deployed a number of warships opposite Syria in secret. If the latest report is confirmed, this will be the largest Chinese deployment in the Middle East in its naval history.

After this US government suddenly become peacefull.

Funny how Syria is some kind of Bizarro Israel for these countries.

[obyknven]

Other WW3 news.

While US blaming Syrian chemical weapons Russia demands to clean biological base of the USA from under Tbilisi. Biological attaks from this base against Eurasia Union causing epidemies of Swine influenza in Russia and Belorussia.  Such using of biological weapon can be good casus belli for fullscale war against US and/or for symmetric biological attack against US.

 

http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=26288

http://www.rustavi2.com/news/news_text.php?id_news=49712&pg=1&im=main&ct=0&wth=0

http://ru-facts.com/news/view/25599.html

[BruceVC]

 

Meanwhile Chinese military forces join to Russians in Mediterranian sea. 

 

A Chinese landing craft with 1,000 marines for Syria – reports DEBKAfile September 6, 2013, 12:31 PM (GMT+02:00)

Western naval sources reported Friday that a Chinese landing craft, the Jinggangshan, with a 1,000-strong marine battalion had reached the Red Sea en route for the Mediterranean off Syria. According to DEBKAfile, Beijing has already deployed a number of warships opposite Syria in secret. If the latest report is confirmed, this will be the largest Chinese deployment in the Middle East in its naval history.

After this US government suddenly become peacefull.

Funny how Syria is some kind of Bizarro Israel for these countries.

 

 

Interesting point but I question if Russia and China will go to war over a Western intervention in Syria. I would be very surprised