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Are we getting the PE we were led to believe was on the horizon during the KS?

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I just think that it's ridiculous to think OE will design an RPG ruleset better than D&D in a few months or pre-production, it flies against all common sense. .... There are no traps in D&D, the system just relies on common sense and logic in the player (ie making a Fighter who isn't strong is a bad idea), PE seems to be more designed around making even the most stupid character choices "viable" to lower to bar to entry for more casual players.

 

And for your information, D&D 3.5 was released as open-game license a long time and can be used by cRPGs, so no need for an official D&D license.

 

Yes, probably OE's first incarnation of a ruleset won't be optimal. But without that first prototype we can't hope to get (hopefully) perfection later in the envisioned series of games. D&D may be a nice pen&paper RPG system, but even in that realm I have seen rulesets that learnt from the mistakes of D&D and midgard. That D&D is the most popular is not necessarily a quality measure, Britney Spears had the same distinction.  

 

"to lower the bar to entry for more casual players"? And in the same sentence you show us how trivial it is to choose attributes for a D&D fighter. Really, what is more casual than making a fighter in D&D ? But no, PE system must be more trivial because ..., well because we still don't know much about it so you can pretty much invent any and all worst cases and "facts" about it.

 

If OGL and D&D were that great for computer games, why are there no D&D 3.5 games in the indie games scene?  Why is the only big game to use D&D in the last years "Neverwinter" which has a full licence bought from WotC (and incidentally had to go to court with WotC about it)?

Edited by jethro
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There's Knights of the Chalice:

 

And despite having primitive graphics has one of the best combat systems I've ever played in a cRPG (ToEE was obviously better).

 

The reason why more don't use it? Because it's huge obviously, even implementing the "core" of OGL would be a huge task, even if you took out Feats, Prestige Classes, and the like.

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^ He said that Pathfinder, were you to base a computer game on a ruleset and keep the IE vibe, would be the way forward. I agree. Pathfinder rocks. It could be McGuyvered into a decent CRPG, but I keep coming back to the point, why pimp your Porsche into a truck when you could just buy a truck?

I see and I agree. A Pathfinder turn-based CRPG would be awesome, but I don't see it working very well in a real time CRPG. Also, I would be royally pissed if I couldn't play a Magus and disintegrate **** with a sword.

 

To be honest, I just think d20 is a simple yet deep system, it's almost perfect, you just roll and add your statistic on top to see if you pass or fail. It's easy to understand and simple to design content for. And most importantly, it's familiar both for paper/pen players but also for anything who has played D&D video games from the past.

Hmm, while d20 was definitely a step forward from the 2E mess, it still has a few flaws. I would say that saving throw progression and the Wisdom and Charisma attributes would need to be reworked for me to call it almost perfect. I would still say that it is a good system though.

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It seems obvious to me that Obsidian isn't using someone else's ruleset because they wanted to make their own. Why is this a problem?

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I wanted a game inspired by the IE games, not a carbon copy.

 

I don't mind D&D combat, but I can happily live without it. Obsidian will have to live without it because they simply have no permission to use it.

 

I think some people are reading Sawyer's comments and blowing them out of proportion. Even if there are some things he doesn't like on a personal level, it doesn't mean the Developer Sawyer will not include it in PE.

 

Though I agree with your points, they could use the D20 system if they wanted, its open, although the XP system is not (for some reason; thats why Pathfinder has it's own XP-table). I don't really want them to use D20 even, just wanted to point it out, being nitpicky as I am.

 

EDIT: I guess other people have already mention stuff like this, I just didn't read the whole thread. Sorry about that.

Edited by HansKrSG

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It seems obvious to me that Obsidian isn't using someone else's ruleset because they wanted to make their own. Why is this a problem?

It's a problem because they will fail to make a ruleset even close to how robust and deep something like 3.5 is.

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I won't say it's impossible

 

Actually I'm pretty sure you do say that.

 

 

 

 

but if you people think JE Sawyer is going to design Dungeons & Dragons: Ultimate Fixed Edition crunching in a few months of pre-production....

 

I don't think Sawyer is going to design Dungeons and Dragons: Ultimate Fixed Edition.  I actually (gratefully) expect a deviation from strict adherence to D&D rules.

 

 

They made a Kickstarter because they wanted the freedom to do their own thing.  You obviously disagree and feel burned.  What I am curious about, however, is whether or not you plan on continuing to linger around a game forum for a game you think will be a bust just so you can thump your chest regarding this point repeatedly.

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I won't say it's impossible

 

Actually I'm pretty sure you do say that.

 

 

 

 

but if you people think JE Sawyer is going to design Dungeons & Dragons: Ultimate Fixed Edition crunching in a few months of pre-production....

 

I don't think Sawyer is going to design Dungeons and Dragons: Ultimate Fixed Edition.  I actually (gratefully) expect a deviation from strict adherence to D&D rules.

I mean the depth and complexity of D&D, not the rules per-say. And it's not about strict adherence or even adherence, from all the mechanics updates of PE I have read, the system they are designing sounds nothing like D&D or how combat was resolved in the IE games. I simply think a system which was designed to be familiar to players of D&D computer games would of been more appropriate, instead of something totally alien to it.

 

They made a Kickstarter because they wanted the freedom to do their own thing.  You obviously disagree and feel burned.  What I am curious about, however, is whether or not you plan on continuing to linger around a game forum for a game you think will be a bust just so you can thump your chest regarding this point repeatedly.

 

They made a Kickstarter which specifically mentioned Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment, what else did we have to go off? As I said previously I don't think "IE-like" means isometric graphics alone, graphics are completely cosmetic.

 

And telling me to leave because I don't conform to a fanboy norm of a forum is pretty weak, I think a forum is exactly the place to disagree. I just think the conduct of OE in regard to the games they told the backers they were inspired by has been disrespectful, do you think the IE games had nothing to do with D&D or something? I think OE are deliberately distancing themselves from backers (because they already have our money, duh) and are looking at making PE more appealing to a broader audience than just Computer RPG players. Trying to get rid of "unviable builds" in chargen, no dump stats, so anyone can get through chargen with their eyes closed and still end up with a character that doesn't suck... making so all weapons (even ranged) always hit in combat. I'll guarantee you also that PE will have none of the fantastically powerful creatures from BG, you won't have Basilisks that can petrify a character in a single glance, because that wouldn't be balanced and all that.

Edited by Chrononaut
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Obsidian have 18 months to create a cRRPG with two cities and a 15-level megadungeon, and in this thread you have people worrying about the systems and mechanics, as opposed to the content. :lol:

 

It's not Josh Sawyer and his ruleset you should be worried about. You should be worried about getting a final product that's buggy and/or incomplete.

Edited by Infinitron
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I won't say it's impossible

 

Actually I'm pretty sure you do say that.

 

 

 

 

but if you people think JE Sawyer is going to design Dungeons & Dragons: Ultimate Fixed Edition crunching in a few months of pre-production....

 

I don't think Sawyer is going to design Dungeons and Dragons: Ultimate Fixed Edition.  I actually (gratefully) expect a deviation from strict adherence to D&D rules.

I mean the depth and complexity of D&D, not the rules per-say. And it's not about strict adherence or even adherence, from all the mechanics updates of PE I have read, the system they are designing sounds nothing like D&D or how combat was resolved in the IE games. I simply think a system which was designed to be familiar to players of D&D computer games would of been more appropriate, instead of something totally alien to it.

 

They made a Kickstarter because they wanted the freedom to do their own thing.  You obviously disagree and feel burned.  What I am curious about, however, is whether or not you plan on continuing to linger around a game forum for a game you think will be a bust just so you can thump your chest regarding this point repeatedly.

 

They made a Kickstarter which specifically mentioned Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment, what else did we have to go off? As I said previously I don't think "IE-like" means isometric graphics alone, graphics are completely cosmetic.

 

And telling me to leave because I don't conform to a fanboy norm of a forum is pretty weak, I think a forum is exactly the place to disagree. I just think the conduct of OE in regard to the games they told the backers they were inspired by has been disrespectful, do you think the IE games had nothing to do with D&D or something? I think OE are deliberately distancing themselves from backers (because they already have our money, duh) and are looking at making PE more appealing to a broader audience than just Computer RPG players. Trying to get rid of "unviable builds" in chargen, no dump stats, so anyone can get through chargen with their eyes closed and still end up with a character that doesn't suck... making so all weapons (even ranged) always hit in combat. I'll guarantee you also that PE will have none of the fantastically powerful creatures from BG, you won't have Basilisks that can petrify a character in a single glance, because that wouldn't be balanced and all that.

 

 

But the kickstarter also explicitly stated that they were going to use their own ruleset, rather than a D20 one. It was a very fair statement to say that it was going to be an isometric RPG in the vein of the IE games. In fact, judging from the screenshots they've released, it is an apt description. They haven't misled anyone during their kickstarter.

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Josh Sawyer in September 2012, beginning of the Kickstarter: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/177011/Project_Eternity_What_it_really_means_to_make_the_game_you_want_to_make.php
 

It's all about fully leveraging the opportunity to make the precise game that the team wants to make, and being willing to be okay with the fact that it might not be for everyone. That's one of the major opportunities for studios with Obsidian's pedigree in the crowdfunding age. "I'm not as hostile toward big studio development as some people are," says Sawyer. "It doesn't threaten me at all... however, I'm really glad if we can fragment, and make extremely niche games, or sort of niche games, or mainstream games, it's all great."

And while Obsidian may now reject the unified trend toward mainstreaming niche genres, Sawyer believes ultimately it was good for his colleagues and peers. "Especially in the RPG genre, we were so focused on the hardcore, and on ingrained tradition," he says. "We had insular, specific ways of doing things that had been done that way for so long. Once you said to developers, 'hey, how about you sell this game to someone who hasn't played D&D... it was a big wake-up call'."

"It made us do things we would not have normally been comfortable doing," he says of his experience learning to focus on a wider audience. "And now there can be RPGs [with a] lower barrier to entry, that are more for people who just want to go to a cool fantasy, or post-apocalyptic or sci-fi world and do things where the systems are forgiving."

"But it's nice that we can now say, okay, knowing all the stuff we know about mechanics that are really, on a fundamental level, ****ty for everyone, and the only reason anyone tolerated them was because of convention? Now we don't have to do that," he adds.

 

Edited by Infinitron
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They made a Kickstarter because they wanted the freedom to do their own thing.  You obviously disagree and feel burned.  What I am curious about, however, is whether or not you plan on continuing to linger around a game forum for a game you think will be a bust just so you can thump your chest regarding this point repeatedly.

 

They made a Kickstarter which specifically mentioned Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment, what else did we have to go off? As I said previously I don't think "IE-like" means isometric graphics alone, graphics are completely cosmetic.

 

To me it mean more so than so rule system. Because I don't think that NWN or NWN2 are IE like games even though they use D&D as their rule system. Because they have very different atmosphere because of their graphichs style.

 

And here is quote from Kickstarter where Obsidian mentions IE games.

 

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

 

Combat uses a tactical real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities is one of the keys to success. The world map is dotted with unique locations and wilderness ripe for exploration and questing. You’ll create your own character and collect companions along the way – taking him or her not just through this story, but, with your continued support, through future adventures. You will engage in dialogues that are deep, and offer many choices to determine the fate of you and your party. …and you'll experience a story that explores mature themes and presents you with complex, difficult choices to shape how your story plays out.

 

We are excited at this chance to create something new, yet reminiscent of those great games and we want you to be a part of it as well.

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Obsidian have 18 months to create a cRRPG with two cities and a 15-level megadungeon, and in this thread you have people worrying about the systems and mechanics, as opposed to the content. :lol:

 

It's not Josh Sawyer and his ruleset you should be worried about. You should be worried about getting a final product that's buggy and/or incomplete.

Lol, I fully expect PE to be a buggy and incomplete game. I would just rather it at least have a good character system so the least it will have potential for future expansion. I think there's a good chance the Shadowrun Returns modding community for example is gonna fall flat on it's face because of the horrible and boring character system which didn't use the tabletop rules. Also I have no doubt the second city will get cut, and/or the megadungeon will also get cut in half.

 

 

 

 

But the kickstarter also explicitly stated that they were going to use their own ruleset, rather than a D20 one. It was a very fair statement to say that it was going to be an isometric RPG in the vein of the IE games. In fact, judging from the screenshots they've released, it is an apt description. They haven't misled anyone during their kickstarter.

 

 

How is d20 "not their own ruleset", there's been plenty of original rulesets which use d20 as a basis, doesn't mean they aren't original. Numenera is using d20.

 

My problem with PE mechanics goes far deeper than just d20 or even D&D, it's fundamentally that the system is not going to be using traditional dice-rolling under the hood for rolling to hit or make saves. It's gonna be real-time yeah but it's not going to have combat rounds with each character has their own "turn" of 6 seconds. ie when playing PE, it's not going to feel like playing an IE game in terms of combat flow, it's going to feel like a squad-based RTS or Action-RTS (they also call em MOBA's).

 

It's fundamentally about making a system which is familiar to IE players, not about being dogmatic to D&D (even if D&D or OGL is what I'd prefer). It's simply about the fact that from all the mechanics/classes/combat updates we've got on PE, the combat is going to basically be an action-game, not "RPG-like" in mechanics.

 

Oh well, their funeral, it'll piss off a lot of people.

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Josh Sawyer in September 2012, beginning of the Kickstarter: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/177011/Project_Eternity_What_it_really_means_to_make_the_game_you_want_to_make.php

 

It's all about fully leveraging the opportunity to make the precise game that the team wants to make, and being willing to be okay with the fact that it might not be for everyone. That's one of the major opportunities for studios with Obsidian's pedigree in the crowdfunding age. "I'm not as hostile toward big studio development as some people are," says Sawyer. "It doesn't threaten me at all... however, I'm really glad if we can fragment, and make extremely niche games, or sort of niche games, or mainstream games, it's all great."

 

And while Obsidian may now reject the unified trend toward mainstreaming niche genres, Sawyer believes ultimately it was good for his colleagues and peers. "Especially in the RPG genre, we were so focused on the hardcore, and on ingrained tradition," he says. "We had insular, specific ways of doing things that had been done that way for so long. Once you said to developers, 'hey, how about you sell this game to someone who hasn't played D&D... it was a big wake-up call'."

 

"It made us do things we would not have normally been comfortable doing," he says of his experience learning to focus on a wider audience. "And now there can be RPGs [with a] lower barrier to entry, that are more for people who just want to go to a cool fantasy, or post-apocalyptic or sci-fi world and do things where the systems are forgiving."

 

"But it's nice that we can now say, okay, knowing all the stuff we know about mechanics that are really, on a fundamental level, ****ty for everyone, and the only reason anyone tolerated them was because of convention? Now we don't have to do that," he adds.

 

 

That is fundamentally his opinion, why is JE Sawyer's opinion on D&D somehow universal truth. It's arrogance and it's offensive to those who are familiar with and like that system. So he thinks D&D is ****, okay that's his opinions but if he thinks it's so horrible why did they namedrop it on the KS, and continue to name-drop it while asking for fan-funding on their website:

 

Miss classic cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment? So do we!

 

Unless of course what you miss isn't the mechanics of those games but just the grafix!

 

I do not think D&D is without problems, I just think PE is going in a whole other direction, and it will eventually alienate people. Hey I'm not a fanboy but at least Wasteland 2 is using the same basic rules as the original game:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenaries,_Spies_and_Private_Eyes

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Obsidian have 18 months to create a cRRPG with two cities and a 15-level megadungeon, and in this thread you have people worrying about the systems and mechanics, as opposed to the content. :lol:

 

It's not Josh Sawyer and his ruleset you should be worried about. You should be worried about getting a final product that's buggy and/or incomplete.

Lol, I fully expect PE to be a buggy and incomplete game. I would just rather it at least have a good character system so the least it will have potential for future expansion. I think there's a good chance the Shadowrun Returns modding community for example is gonna fall flat on it's face because of the horrible and boring character system which didn't use the tabletop rules. Also I have no doubt the second city will get cut, and/or the megadungeon will also get cut in half.

 

 

 

 

But the kickstarter also explicitly stated that they were going to use their own ruleset, rather than a D20 one. It was a very fair statement to say that it was going to be an isometric RPG in the vein of the IE games. In fact, judging from the screenshots they've released, it is an apt description. They haven't misled anyone during their kickstarter.

 

 

How is d20 "not their own ruleset", there's been plenty of original rulesets which use d20 as a basis, doesn't mean they aren't original. Numenera is using d20.

 

My problem with PE mechanics goes far deeper than just d20 or even D&D, it's fundamentally that the system is not going to be using traditional dice-rolling under the hood for rolling to hit or make saves. It's gonna be real-time yeah but it's not going to have combat rounds with each character has their own "turn" of 6 seconds. ie when playing PE, it's not going to feel like playing an IE game in terms of combat flow, it's going to feel like a squad-based RTS or Action-RTS (they also call em MOBA's).

 

It's fundamentally about making a system which is familiar to IE players, not about being dogmatic to D&D (even if D&D or OGL is what I'd prefer). It's simply about the fact that from all the mechanics/classes/combat updates we've got on PE, the combat is going to basically be an action-game, not "RPG-like" in mechanics.

 

Oh well, their funeral, it'll piss off a lot of people.

 

 

Numenera is not the same game which makes the comparison kind of moot, since they will try to adapt an existing tabletop ruleset for the videogame. I'm pretty sure PE will adopt a system that lends itself better to a computer game, rather than the DnD systems used before. I've played the Neverwinter games, Kotor games (which also use a D20 system) and recently started Baldur's Gate and the only fun thing about the randomness of the D20 system is a Wild Mage without chaos shield.

 

The earlier quotes seem to indicate that they are happy to be able to ignore the bloat that comes with the D20 systems they used previously. Are you sure they won't be using any dice-rolls under the hood? I missed any information on their system.

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Chrononaut: I strongly doubt Wasteland 2 is using MSPE as anything more than a source of inspiration. I doubt MSPE's stats are named "C.L.A.S.S.I.C.", for one thing.

Edited by Infinitron

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Chrononaut: I strongly doubt Wasteland 2 is using MSPE as anything more than a source of inspiration. I doubt MSPE's stats are named "C.L.A.S.S.I.C.", for one thing.

I'm just assuming, Keenan said in the gameplay video "the ruleset is Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes with some tweaks"

 

EDIT: "The ruleset is built on the original Wasteland and Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes with some tweaks to it"

Edited by Chrononaut

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And telling me to leave because I don't conform to a fanboy norm of a forum is pretty weak, I think a forum is exactly the place to disagree.

 

Sure, but you bring up the same points now for weeks like a broken record, without any new facts to bolster your claims. We get it, you like D&D. But OE made clear from day one that they would make their own rule system.

 

I'll guarantee you also that PE will have none of the fantastically powerful creatures from BG, you won't have Basilisks that can petrify a character in a single glance, because that wouldn't be balanced and all that.

Ah, a new prediction without any fact to support it. I'm sure OE plans to add only boring pedestrain monsters. They won't call them monsters though, they will be called nonconformist coinhabitants, PC be thanked. And the party will surely have a strict 8 hour workday and off on the weekends. Nothing exciting will happen because pensioners with pacemakers could potentially play the game.

 

Sure, there is a danger that OE could fall into the trap to make it too mainstream and streamlined because they want some commercial success too and overshoot. There are lots of traps and dangers they could fall into. That's what alpha and beta versions are for. But crying wolf without wolf is not very helpful.

 

So he thinks D&D is ****, okay that's his opinions but if he thinks it's so horrible why did they namedrop it on the KS, and continue to name-drop it while asking for fan-funding on their website:

In your quote I only see the games BG , Torment and Icewind Dale mentioned, nowhere is there any mention of "D&D". So no name-drop at all. Or should we now assume that his mentioning BG implies we should get D&D and a 640x400 (or whatever it was) resolution? Or is a basilisc necessary to get a BG feeling? Is Windows95 an essential part?

Edited by jethro

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Chrononaut: I strongly doubt Wasteland 2 is using MSPE as anything more than a source of inspiration. I doubt MSPE's stats are named "C.L.A.S.S.I.C.", for one thing.

I'm just assuming, Keenan said in the gameplay video "the ruleset is Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes with some tweaks"

 

 

Yeah, I think that's a bit of an understatement. Don't think the original Wasteland was a particularly close adaptation either. Here's some information about that: http://trollbridge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=msperules&action=display&thread=1829

 

Anyway, PnP adaptation faithfulness isn't the real issue here. You have fundamental differences with PE's design philosophy. You think "system mastery" - correct character building as a significant challenge factor - is important. Obsidian don't. You think "extreme" save-or-die type spells add tension and a sense of power, and should be part of any RPG. Obsidian don't.

 

If those things are deal-breakers for you, then I would recommend you ask for a refund. From what I've seen, the major Kickstarter projects are fairly generous with refunds as long as you ask nicely.

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Fair enough, I think character generation should have a sense of natural logic about it. It makes sense that a Fighter needs to be strong, a Mage needs to be intelligent, a Bard (well, chanter) needs to be charismatic, a Rogue/Thief to be dexterous. If someone is stumped even by simple notions like that....

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Chrononaut: I strongly doubt Wasteland 2 is using MSPE as anything more than a source of inspiration. I doubt MSPE's stats are named "C.L.A.S.S.I.C.", for one thing.

I'm just assuming, Keenan said in the gameplay video "the ruleset is Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes with some tweaks"

 

 

Yeah, I think that's a bit of an understatement. Don't think the original Wasteland was a particularly close adaptation either. Here's some information about that: http://trollbridge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=msperules&action=display&thread=1829

I'm just repeating what he said?

 

Anyway, PnP adaptation faithfulness isn't the real issue here. You have fundamental differences with PE's design philosophy. You think "system mastery" - correct character building as a significant challenge factor - is important. Obsidian don't. You think "extreme" save-or-die type spells add tension and a sense of power, and should be part of any RPG. Obsidian don't.

I think the "no miss" thing is a way bigger deal than any of that, as is the lack of combat rounds. And you say "system mastery" like it's a dirty word, because you know having to read tooltips (or in the old days manuals) in order to understand how the game's rules work is such a terrible thing. Na people should be able to just skim through chargen with no planning of their character and expect to do well in the game. And no one should have to restart the game with a different character because they made a character that isn't working out for them, it's not like RPG's are designed around re-playability or anything amirite

 

If those things are deal-breakers for you, then I would recommend you ask for a refund. From what I've seen, the major Kickstarter projects are fairly generous with refunds as long as you ask nicely.

picard-facepalm.jpg

Sup Bro, I hear you like absolute black/white scenarios.

Edited by Chrononaut

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Guest Servant of ASMADI

Personally, the mechanics of the old infinity engine, and D&D in general, were not good. I liked having full control of your characters in combat(something I've been fighting with NWN2 on), and the spells, but pretty much everything else left a fair bit to be desired.

What I loved about the old games, BG1 and 2, and Planescape torment(And what icewind dale was lacking) was the great story and at least as  importantly the great characters. Things that make you feel personally involved in the world, the people in it and whats going on. These are the reasons I'm still playing these games to this day(working through baldurs gate reloaded right now).

 

For these points the mechanics of the game mean absolutely nothing. They could use the Diablo system for all it matters. It was all about the writing for me. Right now I can still hear the speech made by Irenicus as you meet him in spellhold, how you finally track him down expecting to have an epic battle only to have him tell you that he had the captain of the ship you got there on put a sleeping potion in the food. That there will be no heroics, no great fight, only sleep. And then I passed out.

 

If Obsidian can make moments like these in PE, with the same level of great characters and writing, then as far as I'm concerned they will have done exactly what I hoped for and my money was well spent.

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Guest Servant of ASMADI

Addenum post.

And not be buggy as F#@%

Obsidian has made some of the best RPGS, NWN2, New Vegas, and technically Alpha Protocol. But F^@&ing hell the bugs can be bad at times. Please playtest the S#$T out of Project Eternity first. Please for the love of old video games.

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