Expiring Potions (to discourage excessive resting and potion hoarding)

[Inarius]

To me the ideal solution would just be to only allow you to equip so many potions on your belt and those are all you can use during combat. If you can fit 3 potions on your belt that's it, if its 5 that's it. It would set a maximum power limit and make harder fights easier design without having to balance for hoards of potions. I think it would also facilitate using potions instead of hoarding them for later because you know later you're only going to be able to use so many potions in a fight anyway. Maybe you'll hold onto potions so you don't dip below the maximum you can equip but thats much more acceptable than having so many potions hoarded you decide to just vendor em off.

As far as the path of exile style potions go I think they're amazing for that style of game (ie action rpg), but for more traditonal RGGs I dont know. The problem for me comes from the refilling mechanic. The more you kill the more your potions refill, but what if you want to avoid a few fights using stealth or dialogue and youre potions are all empty or half full?  I suppose having potions refill off of a timer would be an acceptable  alternative but its basically an inverse cooldown timer that way.

[AGX-17]

Drink potions past their sell-by date to increase your Guts.

[TrashMan]

HMmmm..you're right. Forbiding potions is not the answer. Maybe if trying to drink it gives the enemy great to-hit bonuses adn leaves you totally defensless while the animation is playing? That way, characters out of melee could still drink, but for those engaged it would be a risky endevaour.

 

But either way, the problem remains.

 

I guess if potions don't have an immediate effect, but gradual (increased regeneration istead of getting 100 HP back instantly) it might improve things. I never was the one to like trivialisation of injuries. It's fantasy, and there's magic - but it goes overboard.

 

I'd rather have the JA2 approach to injuries and health than your typical "chug potions and cast healing spells" schtick. The whole notion of insta-healing in combat just feels off.

Edited September 18, 2013 by TrashMan

[jamoecw]

as for potions expiring, diablo 3 did this by having health orbs, the more you kill the more was dropped.  so if you were a barbarian that threw caution to the wind and slew everything in sight, you healed more and faster.  so by raising your offense you raised your defense, except against bosses that didn't use minions, also by killing things faster you took less damage, so offense was better in almost all situations.  so if you planned ahead and ensured that you had enough defense so that you didn't have to rely on the enemy to save you, you killed slower, and thus was inferior, essentially penalizing planning and foresight.  ultimately this holds true of potions expiring, which would effect gameplay, making it harder to gain offense as it is so good (assuming the devs care about balance), and then having everything hard to kill, which means that things become slow and ponderous, some would say boring.  in diablo 3 the devs needed to keep things fast and action packed, so they eschewed balance in exchange for such, in the end kill happy characters were better at all but the hardest difficulty level (which favored certain 'broken' builds until they were nerfed, last i checked which has been a while barbarian reigned supreme for solo play).

 

as for healing in the midst of battle, perhaps something akin to PoE mixed with JA2.  say have something gain power when you do damage, and you can use it to gain health over the course of a few rounds up to half the damage you have taken or equal to the amount of current health that you have, whichever is less.  that way the more you fight (and thus the more healing you should need) the more you can heal, but it probably will at best offset the damage you are currently taking if attacked, and damage first taken will always leave its mark until properly healed.

[moridin84]

I'd rather have the JA2 approach to injuries and health than your typical "chug potions and cast healing spells" schtick. The whole notion of insta-healing in combat just feels off.

Does that really fit what Project Eternity is though?

 

I mean, I could see it working in something like Wasteland 2 but healing spells and potions and pretty much stables of these kinds of games. 

[Lephys]

I mean, I could see it working in something like Wasteland 2 but healing spells and potions and pretty much stables of these kinds of games.

Ahh, but even staples can be easily replaced with paper clips, or punched holes and a 3-ring binder, or those little slip-on plastic bindings that, combined with transparency sheets, turn your stack o' papers into a sort of booklet.

 

I hear you, though. I don't think a deeper damage system (wounds and injuries and such) is completely out of the question for a game like P:E, but I would definitely say that, for reference value, copying and pasting in JA2's system most likely wouldn't be the best fit.

 

It would definitely need to be a system designed with more fantastical things in mind. Of course, what with P:E's "there's not really any insta-healing magic that will mend wounds and replenish your blood supply at the snap of a finger" approach, I would say that if any fantasy RPG could handle a more in-depth damage system, it would be P:E. 8P

[moridin84]

Personally I don't want to spend a lot of time thinking and worry about potions. For example I find the Alchemy stuff (especially the gathering) in the witcher games to be a pain. 

 

I'd be fine with potions on cooldowns, a potion belt, slow healing potions or even a combination of all three. All these implementations limit the power of potions while encouraging their use without causing a micromanagement headache about something which, in the end, isn't that bloody important. 

[TrashMan]

 

I'd rather have the JA2 approach to injuries and health than your typical "chug potions and cast healing spells" schtick. The whole notion of insta-healing in combat just feels off.

Does that really fit what Project Eternity is though?

 

I mean, I could see it working in something like Wasteland 2 but healing spells and potions and pretty much stables of these kinds of games. 

 

 

I don't see why it wouldn't work. After all, JA2 is also a RPG in a way.

 

There is a problem with peoepl getting so accustomed to playing a specific game with the same mechanics over and over, that they start to associate the mechanic with the genre. Frankly I think that causes stailness and lack of creativity.

 

True, a game with a more JA2-like health/injury mechanic WOULD play differently.

Resting and visiting town would beome more iportat - as well as activities you can do while there. Battles would be more dangerous, but also smaller in scale (you wouldn't fight endless hordes)

And heal-bot classes would be gone.

 

That is something I wouldn't mind, as it's especially horrible in MMO's. Over-specialized, 1 trick ponies who are boring to play. Stand behind the fighter and heal, heal, heal, heal, heal, heal. It's also downright silly when you think about it.

[Osvir]

Personally, I wouldn't allow use of potions during a battle.

 

Drink before, drink after...but potion chugging while a guy is hitting you with a sword is just silly.

Whilst I kind of agree, I do kind of disagree as well.

 

I could see a "Drinking time" on potions akin to "Casting time". I'm thinking about "Rules of Engagement" and I suppose drinking a potion could be equivalent to "Disengaging". So if I decide "Hey, my Fighter has low Stamina! I'll make him drink a potion" whilst he is in a battle, the enemy Fighter could get the same "Free Attack" as if I was trying to run away from the disengagement.

 

But if I am out of harms way with my Fighter and there's no enemy within range (even if I'm "engaged" in combat with the rest of my team), then I should be able to drink a potion without problem, in my opinion.

 

[brainstorm Start]

 

There could be a risk if you choose to drink a potion "In-Combat", if an enemy strikes a Critical Hit (Archer-type or "Within-Range" Melee) they could deal damage and possibly destroy the potion as well. So you lose a potion and take damage. This way the Player could negate some "Potion" effects that the opponent might be going for.

 

Breaking Down Dance-list:

- "Drinking Time" akin to "Casting Time"

- Chug-a-Round: Get boost "a turn". Let's say "3 gulps" for simplicity let's look at a Stamina Potion example

-- Round 1: 1 Gulp = +10 Stamina

-- Round 2: 1 Gulp = +10 Stamina

-- Round 3: 1 Gulp = +10 Stamina

- If attacked during "Gulp" = Interruption (You keep the Potion)

- If Critical Hit = Potion Destroyed

 

This would imply, however, that each potion would have at least 3/3 charges. Maybe you need to down an entire bottle to get that +1 Strength effect, and if you only get down 1 Gulp and then get interrupted you'd not get any of the effects (until you can down the next 2 ones within a timeframe/one engagement). Some potions might only require 2 Gulps, and others might even require 4-5 Gulps. Maybe drinking 1 Gulp of one Potion, then drinking 2 Gulps of another Potion could get you other benefits.

 

But! It could also be an interesting crafting mechanic and an incentive to use potions much more.

 

Got 1 1/3 Stamina Potion and an Acid Potion? Mix and match! Create a Poison Stamina Potion and get an Empty Flask so you can craft a new potion. 

 

- Healing Potions = Charges

- Damaging Potions = Single-Use/Throwing/Coating

 

Got 2 1/3 Charge Stamina Potions? Mix! Get 1 2/3 Charges Stamina Potion and 1 Empty Flask to be able to craft a new potion.

 

But ofc, drinking too much of the good stuff could warrant consequences.

 

I also wish to chip in Potions here. A Potion with a Positive Effect could be stacked, let's say 3 times:

 

1st: You get +1 Strength

2nd: You get +1 Strength. Now +2 in total

3rd: You get +2 Strength. Now +4 in total. BUT:

* Every other turn your character gets -1 Strength for 5 turns. After 5 turns it means your character is "Weakened" and has -1 Strength.

* Additionally, afterwards, your character stays "Weakened" for 10 turns. So you have -1 Strength for 10 turns.

* When the battle ends, the "Weakened" status could disappear or stay in effect for 10 "Out of Combat" turns (Meaning that if you encounter a 2nd Mob around a corner, you'd still have -1 Strength, but for maybe 2-3 turns depending on how many "Out of Combat" turns you spent)

 

So what is the Advantage of drinking 3 Potions?

- 1 Potion: +1 Strength for 2 Turns

- Turn 1, 1 Potion: +1

- Turn 2, 1 Potion: +1

- 2 Potions: +2 Strength for 2 Turn

- Turn 1, 2 Potions: +2

- Turn 2, 2 Potions: +2

- 3 Potions: +4 Strength for 1 Turn

- Upkeep: -1 Strength/+3 Strength for 1 Turn

- Upkeep: -1 Strength/+2 Strength for 1 Turn

- Upkeep: -1 Strength/+1 Strength for 1 Turn

- Upkeep: -1 Strength/+0 Strength/Standard

- Upkeep: -1 Strength/-1 Strength for 10 Turns

 

[EDIT]For an even more "Hardcore" version of it (I was kind of "kind" with the example above but really I'd like to see something like the below):

 

- 1 Potion: +1 Strength/Now +1, Lasts 2 Turns (3 turns effectively, from the point of drinking it)

- Turn 1, 1 Potion: +1 Strength

- Turn 2, 1 Potion: +1 Strength, Drink 2nd Potion During Turn

- 2 Potions: +1 Strength/Now +2, Lasts 2 Turns (3 turns effectively, from the point of drinking it)

- Turn 1, 2 Potions: +2 Strength

- Turn 2, 2 Potions: +2 Strength, Drink 3rd Potion During Turn

- 3 Potions: +2 Strength/Now +4

- Upkeep: -2 Strength/Now +2

- Upkeep: -1 Strength/Now +1

- Upkeep: -2 Strength/Now -1 (Weakened Effect Start 1 Turn)

- Upkeep: -1 Strength/Now -2 (Weakened Effect Upkeep 2 Turns)

- Upkeep: -2 Strength/Now -4 (Weakened Effect Upkeep 3 Turns)

- Weakened Effect Upkeep 7 Turns.

 

Pros With 3 Potions = Negative Effect:

+ You get Stronger for a "Peak" period of 1 Turn.

+ You have 9 Turns, if using it as Effectively as you can, where you are on the +Side (+1, +2, +3, +4)

 

Cons With 3 Potions = Negative Effect:

- The Weakness is consistent at -4 for 8 Turns.

 

Pros With 2 Potions = No Negative Effects:

+ You don't get weakened and you have a consistent Strength "boost" for 2 turns.

+ In Combination with 1 Potions you can get +1 for 2 Turns and +2 for 2 Turns without any negative effects (Effectively speaking: 6 Turns boost)

 

Cons With 2 Potions:

- You can still get stronger if you Drink 1 More Potion. I.E. You can achieve a stronger potential, but at the cost of Weakness afterwards.

- You have a Boost period of 6 Turns in comparison to the 9 Turns of 3 Potions.

 

Effectively speaking: You'd get a total of... let's see...

 

So you get 6 turns where you get an advantage, and you get 10 turns where you get a disadvantage*. Negative Attributes, please BALANCE it with Positive Attributes.[/EDIT]

 

Similarly, drinking a different kind of a Potion that maybe makes your characters faster could perhaps make them sick afterwards or poisoned or something due to the chemical/physical reaction caused by the ingredients. I.E: Your character becomes super fast, lots of adrenaline and lots of energy and they can dodge and attack really fast but drinking too much of the good stuff makes the "overload" basically. A quick "Peak" in power before falling down to a weaker state.

 

"Fly too close to the Sun and your wings get burned and you fall, but for a second or two you were closer than you had ever been to the Sun"

[brainstorming End]

 

* (Strike Through) Old post, I didn't think/didn't calculate correctly when I wrote that.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Osvir

[kgambit]

 

I could see a "Drinking time" on potions akin to "Casting time". I'm thinking about "Rules of Engagement" and I suppose drinking a potion could be equivalent to "Disengaging". So if I decide "Hey, my Fighter has low Stamina! I'll make him drink a potion" whilst he is in a battle, the enemy Fighter could get the same "Free Attack" as if I was trying to run away from the disengagement.

 

But if I am out of harms way with my Fighter and there's no enemy within range (even if I'm "engaged" in combat with the rest of my team), then I should be able to drink a potion without problem, in my opinion.

 

[brainstorm Start]

 

snipped to shorten the quote box

 

[brainstorming End]

 

 

 

This.  +1

 

The potion "charges" idea is interesting. 

[kgambit]

 

 

True, a game with a more JA2-like health/injury mechanic WOULD play differently.

Resting and visiting town would beome more iportat - as well as activities you can do while there. Battles would be more dangerous, but also smaller in scale (you wouldn't fight endless hordes)

 

And heal-bot classes would be gone.

 

I think the JA2 system is great - in JA2.  How would you specifically alter it for PE or a cRPG in general?  Make that for a cRPG in general since we don't have all the details on the PE system yet.  What things are specifically lacking in cRPGs that you would borrow from JA2?

 

No heal-bots?   What about Dr. Vincent Beaumont at the hospital in Cambria?  He totally sucks in combat and his only decent skill is (wait for it .....) medical.  He's a JA2 heal-bot if ever there was one.   

 

Off the top of my head, there are half a dozen other mercs who have skills split between marksmanship (for example) and medical:  Dr Q, Danny, Fox, Spider, MD and Ira.  They fit the classic fantasy trope of a cleric as a combination of healing skills with combat abilities. It's not a big deal but let's not go overboard about the heal-bot analogy.

[jamoecw]

 

 

I'd rather have the JA2 approach to injuries and health than your typical "chug potions and cast healing spells" schtick. The whole notion of insta-healing in combat just feels off.

Does that really fit what Project Eternity is though?

 

I mean, I could see it working in something like Wasteland 2 but healing spells and potions and pretty much stables of these kinds of games. 

 

 

I don't see why it wouldn't work. After all, JA2 is also a RPG in a way.

 

There is a problem with peoepl getting so accustomed to playing a specific game with the same mechanics over and over, that they start to associate the mechanic with the genre. Frankly I think that causes stailness and lack of creativity.

 

True, a game with a more JA2-like health/injury mechanic WOULD play differently.

Resting and visiting town would beome more iportat - as well as activities you can do while there. Battles would be more dangerous, but also smaller in scale (you wouldn't fight endless hordes)

And heal-bot classes would be gone.

 

That is something I wouldn't mind, as it's especially horrible in MMO's. Over-specialized, 1 trick ponies who are boring to play. Stand behind the fighter and heal, heal, heal, heal, heal, heal. It's also downright silly when you think about it.

 

healing classes would be different, even in JA2 you needed healers, their importance would be to keep people alive in combat, and to aid in their recovery outside of combat, the general idea of clerics from PnP would be kept, but the whole no downtime thing would be scrapped.  i only see good from this, unless we are talking about diablo style cRPGs.  i could see clerics grabbing some mobility over say the fighter, so they could get to injured people quicker, and i could see lesser healing classes being something other than a waste of space in a party with a dedicated healer.

[Lephys]

I think the biggest source of the problem in RPGs (or at least in typical, prevalent fantasy RPGs) is the idea that anything other than pristine health/condition is imminently terrible. The enemies are designed to take your health down to 0 (like Captain Planet with pollution), and your characters are designed to literally COUNTER that and push your HP back up to full, or as far toward it as is possible.

 

Heck, even shooters and the like used to typically make not-full health an okay, normal thing. You took some shots, you were at half health, and you had to actually be more careful now until you could find medical supplies. Sure, they abstractly instantly healed you, but still... they were at least scarce, and you had no instant-regen, because the game wasn't designed around you definitely taking 15 bullets every 3 seconds.

 

I think that, at the very least, it would be interesting to see a healer role not vanish, but simply be repurposed from a "I do ANTI-damage to you!" role into a "I mitigate damage" role. If you get hit with a sword, and it gets through your armor, you get sliced and begin bleeding. Maybe you got hit on an artery, or maybe you got hit in some "meh" place that'll clot just fine on its own after not-too-bad of bloodloss, etc. But a healer could easily stop that bleeding. COUNTER negative effects into negation, so that you're still in a worse state than you were, but there are no longer effects constantly chipping away at your state of health.

 

In other words, I do think it would be a refreshing change if healers simply kept you in the fight rather than keeping you in pristine condition. Combat could easily focus more on the effective use of your finite HP pool, and less on the finite use of your finite HP-replenishment pool versus the enemies' use of their finite damage pool against your finite HP pool.

 

It's really a bit redundant, the whole "They do damage, but we UNDO damage" concept of healers.

 

Annnnywho... potions. This KIND of has to do with potions, since they're typically bottled heal spells, among other things. If healing worked like this, I think potions would be a lot more necessary. And/or items-that-aren't-potions-but-sort-of-serve-the-same-purpose. Magical consumables, we'll say. They could be poultices/bandages, salves, etc. Wouldn't even have to be magical healing, but wouldn't have to NOT-be, either. Heal skills could determine how much bleeding is stopped (in the example of a bleeding wound; the effectiveness of the bandage), as well as how long the bandage/salve/poultice works (the skill with which it was applied and tied, etc.). Things like that. Spells could do the same. Spells could knit your flesh, even, without needing to fully "heal" you up and restore all your lost blood and vigor.

 

I think it's pretty awesome how that works in The Wheel of Time. The One Power can be used to heal, but it basically uses your body's metabolism to do it. It fatigues the "caster," and it HIGHLY fatigues the healed/target. If you have a horrible, horrible wound, sometimes they can't even heal it without either the caster collapsing into a coma/death or the healee recovering from the wound, only to have all his other bodily systems fail from all the metabolism that went on to fix the wound. They'd typically only do what was needed at the time... typically just stabilization. They could also "wash away" fatigue, but it didn't actually make you less "worn" (for lack of a better word), it just made you not FEEL fatigue anymore. You were still accumulating further stress on your body, on top of whatever you had already done for the day, but you didn't have to deal with the weight of feeling it all. Kind of like overclocking your body...

[moridin84]

 

 

I'd rather have the JA2 approach to injuries and health than your typical "chug potions and cast healing spells" schtick. The whole notion of insta-healing in combat just feels off.

Does that really fit what Project Eternity is though?

 

I mean, I could see it working in something like Wasteland 2 but healing spells and potions and pretty much stables of these kinds of games. 

 

 

I don't see why it wouldn't work. After all, JA2 is also a RPG in a way.

 

There is a problem with peoepl getting so accustomed to playing a specific game with the same mechanics over and over, that they start to associate the mechanic with the genre. Frankly I think that causes stailness and lack of creativity.

 

True, a game with a more JA2-like health/injury mechanic WOULD play differently.

Resting and visiting town would beome more iportat - as well as activities you can do while there. Battles would be more dangerous, but also smaller in scale (you wouldn't fight endless hordes)

Well it would certainly "work" but would it make the game more fun and interesting? JA2 might be an RPG but it is quite different to Project Eternity. For example JA2 is turned based right? (I've only played JA 1)

 

 

I don't want to have to visit a dungeon and return to town multiple times.

 

I mean, I'm okay with the idea that you might have to return to town if you mismanage your resources (spells, potions, items, etc), I don't want to have to do it all the time  it's not fun. So it's okay if the dungeon is harder than I thought, or if I forgot to bring some stuff, or I didn't bring any fire-based attacks because I wasn't expecting The Spanish Inquisition trolls.. 

 

 

 

 

And heal-bot classes would be gone.

 

That is something I wouldn't mind, as it's especially horrible in MMO's. Over-specialized, 1 trick ponies who are boring to play. Stand behind the fighter and heal, heal, heal, heal, heal, heal. It's also downright silly when you think about it.

 

You do realize that the more complicated you making healing damage/injuries, the less valuable you make potions, the more likely you are going to have to bring a dedicated healer right? Even if just for out of combat healing. 

Edited September 19, 2013 by moridin84

[anubite]

It's very hard to balance potions.

 

In Path of Exile, there were "Gauranteed Critical Hit" potions that give you 100% crit chance for X seconds. Obviously, they were very powerful and had to be toned down. I don't think the alternative they've created (which simply give you two chances to crit per attack) is quite as compelling.

 

There were also armor potions that greatly increased armor rating, but even those turned out to be too powerful.

 

And as a flip side example, Skyrim's potions, for the most part, are a joke.

 

I think a good potion system needs to provide immediate results. For instance, the drugs in Shadowrun Returns? I was never tempted to use them - they provided small buffs for short durations and consumed a turn to utilize. No thanks!

 

Because strategy games are a lot about timing and positioning, potions should be impactful. If an effect lasts a long time, it generally can't be impactful (or it's too easy to abuse them). Potions (or whatever you want to call a transient effect item) should provide effects that are game-changing, yet hard to abuse. They should be about timing and positioning. Perhaps they should exclude all kinds of healing potions and only provide us with effect potions - just make sure the effects are worth caring about and let enemies use these potions too? Perhaps, they should come with downsides as well - drinking an armor potion negatively impacts your spell resistance.

 

The misuse of potions really has nothing to do with whether players hoard them or not. If they're balanced in combat, spamming them stupidly should be an ineffective startegy.

 

I like PoE's potion system, as I've said, but it probably doesn't translate well to a BG-style game. Potions should be much more tactical.

 

The worst way to do it is to do what DA2 did - you've got a dedicated potion button. Your job is to press it as soon as it comes off cooldown. That's action-game territory, nevermind that it boils many boss fights down to 'run around in circles until the potion comes back up'.

Edited September 19, 2013 by anubite

[TrashMan]

 

 

 

True, a game with a more JA2-like health/injury mechanic WOULD play differently.

Resting and visiting town would beome more iportat - as well as activities you can do while there. Battles would be more dangerous, but also smaller in scale (you wouldn't fight endless hordes)

 

And heal-bot classes would be gone.

 

I think the JA2 system is great - in JA2.  How would you specifically alter it for PE or a cRPG in general?  Make that for a cRPG in general since we don't have all the details on the PE system yet.  What things are specifically lacking in cRPGs that you would borrow from JA2?

 

No heal-bots?   What about Dr. Vincent Beaumont at the hospital in Cambria?  He totally sucks in combat and his only decent skill is (wait for it .....) medical.  He's a JA2 heal-bot if ever there was one. 

 

Off the top of my head, there are half a dozen other mercs who have skills split between marksmanship (for example) and medical:  Dr Q, Danny, Fox, Spider, MD and Ira.  They fit the classic fantasy trope of a cleric as a combination of healing skills with combat abilities. It's not a big deal but let's not go overboard about the heal-bot analogy.

 

 

 

Vince was OK. Didnt' cost much and was better than some MERCs you could get.

 

But either way, the point is that medical kill in JA2 worked COMPLETELY differently. Anyone could learn the medical skill. Heck, most mercs have some basic medical skill.

Of course, those with high skill have aditional benetifs. They bandage faster. They spend less medical supplies. Patients heal faster. And of course, they could heal some of the criticals.

 

But medics couldn't top your health off in combat. Their task wasn't to re-fill your HP during battle.

[TrashMan]

Well it would certainly "work" but would it make the game more fun and interesting? JA2 might be an RPG but it is quite different to Project Eternity. For example JA2 is turned based right? (I've only played JA 1)

 

 

You can play it real-time too, but it is made for turn-based.

Also, JA2 is LOTS better than JA1. Seriously. Go get it. Play it. Wit the 1.13 mod. Higher resolution. more stuff added.

 

 

 

I don't want to have to visit a dungeon and return to town multiple times.

 

I mean, I'm okay with the idea that you might have to return to town if you mismanage your resources (spells, potions, items, etc), I don't want to have to do it all the time  it's not fun. So it's okay if the dungeon is harder than I thought, or if I forgot to bring some stuff, or I didn't bring any fire-based attacks because I wasn't expecting The Spanish Inquisition trolls..

 

Why not return to town if it's necessary. How long do you expect dungeons to be?

How many enemies you expect?

How woulded do you expect to end up in each fight?

 

 

 

You do realize that the more complicated you making healing damage/injuries, the less valuable you make potions, the more likely you are going to have to bring a dedicated healer right? Even if just for out of combat healing.

 

Healing potions being less valubale? I'm all for it.

 

You seem to think I'm against the role/function/skill of a healer. I'm not.

I'm against how healers usualyl play.

 

 

[moridin84]

 

Why not return to town if it's necessary. How long do you expect dungeons to be?

How many enemies you expect?

How woulded do you expect to end up in each fight?

 

How big the dungeons are is irrelevant. 

 

Going half way through a dungeon and then having to turn back, is a hassle. Firstly due to having to travel back and forth over the place you've already been to, secondly because it interrupts the "flow" of the game. It's annoying to be interrupted when you are having fun. It's not going to be like Diablo where you get town portals or something. 

 

 

Healing potions being less valubale? I'm all for it.

 

You seem to think I'm against the role/function/skill of a healer. I'm not.

I'm against how healers usualyl play.

In a game where you control 6 (I think?) character, I wouldn't have through actually having a dedicated "healbot" healer would be a problem. It's different in a game like World of Warcraft where you play a single character. 

 

Though actually, I'm against being forced to bring a healer along with me*. So I want some way to heal up my characters after a fight, a cheap or free alternative to bring a healer along. Whether that's potions, or auto-healing or bandages I don't care. 

 

*I'm actually against being forced to bring any particular character along since I only want to bring companions which I like along with me

Edited September 20, 2013 by moridin84

[Lephys]

The main problem with the "healbot" role is that it's redundant. An entire role dedicated to that is a bit silly. They're literally spending time and resources to UNDO damage. Time and resources that could've gone towards preventing that damage in the first place. And/or you could simply have larger health bars across the board, and cut out the dedicated healer.

 

The ability to undo some damage? Tactical. It's kind of like a surprise, retro-active block. An entire role based on constantly undoing damage faster than enemies can DO the damage? A little silly.

[moridin84]

The main problem with the "healbot" role is that it's redundant. An entire role dedicated to that is a bit silly. They're literally spending time and resources to UNDO damage. Time and resources that could've gone towards preventing that damage in the first place. And/or you could simply have larger health bars across the board, and cut out the dedicated healer.

 

The ability to undo some damage? Tactical. It's kind of like a surprise, retro-active block. An entire role based on constantly undoing damage faster than enemies can DO the damage? A little silly.

Your complete dismissal of healing and the healer "role" is so absurd it's kind of hard to argue with it. Most RPGs have healer classes. And there's obvious a good reason for it, otherwise, you know, why?

 

Guild Wars 2 makes an effort to avoid the dedicated healer classes but it does so by giving everyone the ability to heal, both themselves and others. And I'm pretty sure that in big PvE fights there will be players who are in a dedicated support role. 

[TrashMan]

 

How big the dungeons are is irrelevant. 

 

Going half way through a dungeon and then having to turn back, is a hassle. Firstly due to having to travel back and forth over the place you've already been to, secondly because it interrupts the "flow" of the game. It's annoying to be interrupted when you are having fun. It's not going to be like Diablo where you get town portals or something. 

 

 

To you.

For me it adds immersion. Games have you do far more tedious and stupd s*** (like mindless grinding) for worse reasons.

 

 

 

In a game where you control 6 (I think?) character, I wouldn't have through actually having a dedicated "healbot" healer would be a problem. It's different in a game like World of Warcraft where you play a single character. 

 

Though actually, I'm against being forced to bring a healer along with me*. So I want some way to heal up my characters after a fight, a cheap or free alternative to bring a healer along. Whether that's potions, or auto-healing or bandages I don't care. 

 

*I'm actually against being forced to bring any particular character along since I only want to bring companions which I like along with me.

 

 

So if you were going on a field trip in a dangerous area, you'd insist that no one in your team knows first aid, becuae oyu dont' liek peopel who know first aid?

 

Frankly I'd say you were being stupid. I hardly consider it "forcing" to punish a player for obvious stupidity.

Would you complain that FPS's game force you to carry ammo with you?

But I don't like guns, I want ot paly with my fists! I don't want to be gimped compared to other players because of that!

 

To want to replace an entire class/function with a EQUALLY EFFECTIVE potion.....Sorry, but to me that just sounds...redicolous.

 

I guess you could go with a "no healer party", but a party like that would need regeneration potions, it would have to be far more carefull in combat and would probably have to return to town more often..but still doable. Harder, but hardly unexpected.

Edited September 20, 2013 by TrashMan

[Kjaamor]

The main problem with the "healbot" role is that it's redundant. An entire role dedicated to that is a bit silly. They're literally spending time and resources to UNDO damage. Time and resources that could've gone towards preventing that damage in the first place. And/or you could simply have larger health bars across the board, and cut out the dedicated healer.

 

The ability to undo some damage? Tactical. It's kind of like a surprise, retro-active block. An entire role based on constantly undoing damage faster than enemies can DO the damage? A little silly.

 

Perhaps I'm getting confused as to the definition of healbot, but healing roles are far from redundant as gameplay abstractions. Who do I heal, how do I heal, do I even want to use my healing powers or would I be better using something else? Healers are almost inevitably the same characters who have access to spells like haste and fire shield - you literally balance the tactics of cure and prevention. It's also not about larger health bars in the sense you describe, it's about being able to distribute a further health bar across the party reactively.

 

Even in the standard ott example of 'An entire role based on constantly undoing damage faster than enemies can DO the damage', you forget that even if healers are removed 'An entire role based on constantly doing damage faster than enemies can DO the damage' is true for characters and party alike. This is what dice-roll rpgs are all about.

[jamoecw]

 

 

Why not return to town if it's necessary. How long do you expect dungeons to be?

How many enemies you expect?

How woulded do you expect to end up in each fight?

 

How big the dungeons are is irrelevant. 

 

Going half way through a dungeon and then having to turn back, is a hassle. Firstly due to having to travel back and forth over the place you've already been to, secondly because it interrupts the "flow" of the game. It's annoying to be interrupted when you are having fun. It's not going to be like Diablo where you get town portals or something. 

 

 

Healing potions being less valubale? I'm all for it.

 

You seem to think I'm against the role/function/skill of a healer. I'm not.

I'm against how healers usualyl play.

In a game where you control 6 (I think?) character, I wouldn't have through actually having a dedicated "healbot" healer would be a problem. It's different in a game like World of Warcraft where you play a single character. 

 

Though actually, I'm against being forced to bring a healer along with me*. So I want some way to heal up my characters after a fight, a cheap or free alternative to bring a healer along. Whether that's potions, or auto-healing or bandages I don't care. 

 

*I'm actually against being forced to bring any particular character along since I only want to bring companions which I like along with me

 

it sounds like you have never played JA2 at all, they had dungeons of a sort, and you could clear them out without returning to town, in fact there was less downtime than in BG in a dungeon with all of the resting you had to do.  the secret is that the whole dungeon was balanced against the whole health bars of the team, not so much balancing a fight against the health bars, and the number of fights on the number of healing spells you should have.  you could even finish a fight with no damage done against equal level opponents, as positioning, timing, and use of resources was more important than most rpgs.  you could spray the enemy with lead to boost the chances of a hit, which decreases their chances of hitting you, but spending that much ammo means that later in the game, or maybe even in the dungeon you will have less resources and have a harder time, while you could go the marksmanship route and be efficient with your ammo, but as that means lower dps you need to worry more about defense and sticking to cover, you could also try the whole sneaking thing and get close enough for some stealth kills so as to focus on a few at a time, the thing is you had loads of tactical options so you could adapt as the situation demands if something does go quite right early on in the dungeon, in most rpgs you have to return to town and memorize different spells.

 

in JA2 you could decide not to have any healing at all, and meet with the same success as BG when not having any healer classes.  now if you gave some rudimentary first aid to someone and lacked a dedicated healer, you could do better than in BG with one of the lesser healers.  now if you went with a dedicated healer in both then you'd have roughly the same success in both.  the reason for this greater amount of options is the increased importance of stabilization and basic first aid, without removing the value of dedicated healers, thus it allows more options for your party.

 

as for just ripping JA2 healing out of JA2 and throwing it into BG, or ripping PoE healing potions out and putting it into BG, it does seem off, but on the other hand i think both are better potion wise than the current BG potion system, though i am not sure which would be better in BG.  in either case though learning from them and making a new system would be preferable.

[Lephys]

Your complete dismissal of healing and the healer "role" is so absurd it's kind of hard to argue with it. Most RPGs have healer classes. And there's obvious a good reason for it, otherwise, you know, why?

Whoa whoa whoa... the explanation I gave was absurd, but "Most RPGs have healers, and there's a obviously a good reason for it, otherwise, you know, why?" is a perfectly logical, well-reasoned explanation?

 

Enlighten me, please? Could I trouble you for some details, there?

 

Perhaps I'm getting confused as to the definition of healbot, but healing roles are far from redundant as gameplay abstractions. Who do I heal, how do I heal, do I even want to use my healing powers or would I be better using something else? Healers are almost inevitably the same characters who have access to spells like haste and fire shield - you literally balance the tactics of cure and prevention. It's also not about larger health bars in the sense you describe, it's about being able to distribute a further health bar across the party reactively.

I don't... o_O. Yeah, in isolation, healing is great, and there are all sorts of options. That's so far beside the point.

 

Look, healing only has a purpose if there's a conflict. Right? The most basic conflict you can possibly have is two entities clashing, each with finite ability to be not-dead (health), and each with the ability (presumably finite) to make the other dead. Boom. You've already got that. You can't have combat, and not have that. So, you're already working to take down your foe, while not-dying, yourself. What do games do? "Well, you only do 10 damage per second, and you have 100 health, and your opponent has 1,000 health, so... you're not going to last this fight unless something keeps you going." Boom. Everything was fine, but now they introduced a new problem: Your opponents health surpasses your ability to kill him before he kills you. So you COULD just have some buddies join in, so that, between your collective health bars, and your collective damage, you could kill the thing before it kills any one of you. But no... what do games do? "Hey, you're gonna have a buddy, but instead of actually helping you stop the thing that's damaging you, he's just going to render damage pretty moot, as often as he can."

 

So, now we've got Group A trying to kill Group B, while simultaneously anti-killing itself, and Group B trying to kill Group A, while simultaneously anti-killing IT-self.

 

The only way you could possibly make that more fundamentally redundant is to introduce a THIRD role into the mix -- The Anti-Healer -- who undoes enemy healing effects. They wouldn't simply do damage, though. They can only do damage as a direct result of reversing healing effects. Then, you could even introduce another class, who must tactically turn the fate of the battle by RE-healing the damage that was caused by the healing that had been flipped after it negated the initial damage that was dealt in the first place.

 

Even in the standard ott example of 'An entire role based on constantly undoing damage faster than enemies can DO the damage', you forget that even if healers are removed 'An entire role based on constantly doing damage faster than enemies can DO the damage' is true for characters and party alike. This is what dice-roll rpgs are all about.

Annnnnd you were already doing that. See above. If you're trying to do damage against something that can't harm you, that's not combat. It's a training dummy. If damage isn't done, you're in good health. If it is, you're in worse health. Why does there need to be an ENTIRE role centered around constantly moving health bars back toward full, when you could simply put literally the exact same time and energy into TWO other things already: Pushing enemies' health bars down to zero, or keeping your own health bars from decreasing?

 

You tell me how the equation YEARNS for a damage-undoing dynamic, and I'll gladly listen.

 

For what it's worth, I don't hate the idea of healing. I just hate the idea of pretending it's a constant necessity, and that battles in games should be designed around the idea that you can't get through a battle successfully without someone pumping anti-damage into you. It's like in Diablo, when you're expected to drink 73 potions in 5 seconds to take on a tough boss. It's not as if the devs were designing the game, and came upon a naturally-occurring boss with certain damage numbers and HP numbers, and went "Oh no! This is terrible! Our characters will NEVER be able to take this creature on and live! Oooh! Let's give them the almost-constant ability to laugh in the face of damage! 8D!"

 

If you ask me, Healing roles would be so much more fun if they focused on offensively doing things to prevent damage. Knocking arrows out of the air with spells. Closing up wounds to stop the bleeding (you took the damage from the initial blow, but losing blood is what's going to kill you, not the tissue damage to your leg), etc. Everything's SO passively focused, to make room for all the active damage-undoing. "Okay, I'll just hit you with a holy shield of increased armor value, which'll last about 30 seconds, so that I can get back to firing health beams at your face!"

 

When Warhammer Online came out, and they had the Archmage class, I was SO excited! Not that it wasn't heavily healing-based, but, it was a lot better than just that. It was meant to be a half-and-half idea. You had pretty powerful magic, but every time you healed or used protective magic, you built up a sort of backlash reservoir of offensive magic. Then, when you unleashed an offensive spell, it gained a bonus depending on how much extra backlash you had built up (up to a maximum). And vice versa. The more effectively you smote foes, the more effective your strategically-placed heals were. From a gameplay standpoint, that was such an awesome idea to me.

 

Healers and Support roles are just fine, but there's absolutely no need for them to be healing batteries that dam the tide of damage flowing at your party for the duration of combat. Wayyyy too much focus on undoing damage. All the undone damage in the universe doesn't actually advance progress toward victory on either side of the conflict. It simply prolongs defeat. It draws out combat so that there can be healing, and you're healing so that combat can be drawn out. That's my problem with that.

[Kjaamor]

There is a distinction between one on one combat with potion spam (Diablo), and healing within a group. If you have a party of one using healing potions then you truly are just expanding your health bar arbitrarily. However such games fall into the action rpg category because the necessitate all the tactics of a 'Join up the dots' puzzle (and frankly it astonishes me how they ever manage to sell a single copy).

 

In the party-based system, things are different because that extra health needs a destination, and getting it wrong matters. Even if we discount status bonuses and non-healing healer powers, you still have to choose whether to heal the fighter at half health or the archer at quarter health. It's a tactical choice.

 

(I'm gonna have to continue this later, or I'll be late for work)