Lebronnnnnnnnnnn Jamessssssss !

[Leferd]

Before this season, there would be no way I'd consider Lebron better than MJ. Then something happened. He got with Spoelstra and had a pow wow to discuss how they could be more efficient as a team. Lebron pointed to himself and told Spoelstra to park him at the post and play less hero ball. He completely remade his offensive game after all the success he's experienced. He stopped taking midrange jumpers and from behind the arc, only shoots open threes and from the corner. His already already efficient 53% FG% spiked to an absurd 56% and 3pt% spiked from 36% to 40%.

 

He is still 28 and in the middle of his prime and when you consider that he took great pains to analyze his game and essentially turned himself from a perimeter point forward to a point center in a dedicated small ball lineup, it's scary as to how his game will further evolve.

 

Jordan is still the better player at this stage of his career, but it wouldn't be inconceivable to say that Lebron could surpass him.

[ShadySands]

I think it's very possible that he does surpass Jordan I just disagree with Volo that he already has.

 

I also just like discussing what makes one player "greater" than another. Is it championships, is it personal awards, stats, dominating your contemporaries?

[alanschu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuZp0aggxqE

 

 

As a fan, I loathe the removal of the handcheck rule in 2004.  It opened the game up SO much, in a way that I don't like at all.

 

Granted, Jordan did his part in making wing players more famous and getting a ton of people interested to be like Mike, but it's pretty telling when the big man's scoring prowess disappeared almost immediately.

 

 

The thing I miss the most from those early 90s games: the full court press (usually after free throws) that the Bulls employed.  What a thing of beauty.

 

 

And yeah, I agree that Pippen is often underrated and a big part in Michael winning championships, but I still consider Michael the GOAT.  Lebron is a beastly player though (though I hate the flopping, especially when he gets defensive and denies it).  This wasn't a particularly memorable finals for him, however.  Good to see him finish strong.

Edited June 22, 2013 by alanschu

[Leferd]

I see MJ and Lebron as very similar. Both are ultra competitive and are the most dominant players of their respective era. But I'd say MJ was the more dominant player.

 

As great Larry and Magic were, MJ was just flat out better. MJ was the best offensive player of his era. He was also among the best wing defenders as well.

 

I'm not convinced that the same thing can be said about Lebron at this point. He is clearly better than Kobe. But I'd say Kevin Durant is a more dangerous offensive player. KD has more weapons in his disposal than Lebron.

 

As far as all time greats in the current era, the only thing with certainty I can say is that Stephen Curry is the best perimeter shooter who's ever played the game. Not Reggie, not Larry, not Mullin, Price, Nash, Hodges, Kerr, and certainly not Jesus Shuttlesworth.

[greylord]

"and Lebron won without Wade and Bosh?"

 

Did you not read what I wrote? No one individual can win a championship solo.

 

 

 

"I'm not sure what measure you are using to compare the two"

 

the measure of a acomplete basketball player. MJ was a selfish one dimensional player who can shoot very well. Lebron is a complete player who does everything well and makes all players awesome.  He can pass, shoot, block, rebound, and is a guy who should have won multiple defensive player awards and should have been in the middle of a 5+ MVP run.

 

MJ was awesome. But, Lebron is awesomer.

 

It's not even close.

 

And, don't talk abotu how long it took Lebron to win because both he and MJ basically won their first championship at about the same age. Lebron is still just 28. He has more awesome sauce coming.

 

Let me ask you soemthing, out of all the sweet MJ highlights that exist, how many of them are blocks like the ones Lebron did to Splitter or Duncan? or superb passes? Veyr little or not. All of MJ's highlights are him dribbling and shooting.  MJ was awesome with the ball and shooting and he was an above average defender. But, he was NOt the complete player James is.

 

If I recall correctly...

 

Jordon won best NBA defensive player...which probably indicates he was a tad better at a lot of other things than just shooting...

 

MJ I think had more skill overall.  Lebron is just big...a very skillful big...but still big.  Jordon probably could outmaneuver Lebron...because he'd have to...otherwise Lebron would run him over.

 

Lebron is good, but I think skillswise...Jordon was better.

 

Then again, as someone already mentioned...winning is a TEAM effort...not just one guy.  Jordon may have been the best there ever was, and is...but he'd have gone nowhere without Pippen AND THE OTHER members of the Team.

 

Same with Lebron...we saw him in Cleveland...without the team...he'd not be winning as much or as well.

 

Lebron, Jordon, or any other star, in the end it doesn't matter how good you are...you can't win on your own...it needs to be a good, cohesive team...and a good, cohesive team will always win against the one man band.

[Leferd]

What's interesting about Lebron is that the conventional widom was that his versatility is his biggest strength. He is a walking Don Nelson mismatch wet dream. For years, he'd do his best Magic impersonation and initiate with the ball in his hands.

 

Of course if there was a weakness to his game, and it is a nitpick, it would be his outside shooting (which is actually pretty decent).

 

What was interesting was that in the last two seasons, and especially this year, the Heat actually stopped having Lebron initiate the offense as one of their primary ball handlers and operated their sets with Lebron getting the ball on the post and have home either attack, go back door to a weak side cutter, or draw and kick for open corner threes. Rather than taking advantage of his wide skillet and freak athleticsm, the Heat would double down on his ability to play the post in small ball sets and play him like Charles Barkley. And it is working beautifully.

[Bos_hybrid]

As a fan, I loathe the removal of the handcheck rule in 2004.  It opened the game up SO much, in a way that I don't like at all.

 

I wouldn't go as far as not liking it at all. But it was a determent to the game though.

 

As for Lebron vs Jordan, your judging two different skill sets from two different times. What would Lebron do in Jordan's time and vice versa? I don't think you can make a valid comparison.

 

In the end people will look to statistics, but they only tell part of the story.

[alanschu]

I see MJ and Lebron as very similar. Both are ultra competitive and are the most dominant players of their respective era. But I'd say MJ was the more dominant player.

 

The biggest difference between the two, IMO, is that Lebron went and buddied up with his friends.  Jordan was great friends with people like Magic and Barkley, but he wanted to beat them, not join up with them and dominate the league.

 

I think it'll always taint his legacy, though I suspect he'll put up better career numbers than Michael, barring injuries.

 

 

 

 

As for Lebron vs Jordan, your judging two different skill sets from two different times. What would Lebron do in Jordan's time and vice versa? I don't think you can make a valid comparison.

 

Agreed that they are from two different times.  Lebron would undoubtedly have been influenced by Michael's contributions to the games specifically.

 

I more showed the Bad Boys vs Jordan because Jordan definitely was not a flopper.  In fact, Detroit's aggression often played into Michael's alpha male status, as he initially wanted to show them who's boss.

 

I'd say that Jordan would put up better numbers now than he did in his day, however, despite the fact that scoring in general is down compared to the late 80s.  After watching a lot of his late 80s and early 90s games in the past year (since I didn't watch them), he'd be unguardable now, IMO.  His first step was pretty ridiculous.

Edited June 22, 2013 by alanschu

[Labadal]

I'm only happy he won because he's a co-owner in Liverpool FC. Oh, and he's the best player in years, but that's not very important.

[Hurlshort]

Steph Curry is the best perimeter shooter ever if he can keep that ankle healthy.  He torched the Spurs in the first two games, then he rolled it and became a regular player.  

[Volourn]

"I also just like discussing what makes one player "greater" than another. Is it championships, is it personal awards, stats, dominating your contemporaries?"
 

Skills. Dominance. Personal awards. Stats. Able to elevate teammates.

 

 

"Same with Lebron...we saw him in Cleveland...without the team...he'd not be winning as much or as well."

 

he dragged that team to multiple 60+ win seasons, and a Finals appearance. Jordan could never do any such thing with lesser teammates. And, when James left, the Cavs 'magically' became a joke again.

 

 

"But I'd say Kevin Durant is a more dangerous offensive player. KD has more weapons in his disposal than Lebron."

 

No, he doesn't. All Durant has is a great shot. That's it. We saw what happens when Durant is by himself... he gets his points but cannot elevate teammates, and is no longer a threat to do anything substantial. I'd argue that Durant isn't even the best player on his own team. That belongs to Westbrook.

 

While Jordan won a DPOTY, Lebron should have at least 3 of them including on this season. Lebron should also be in the midst of 5+ MVP awards but the voters feel the need to punish him hence why he didn't win a deserved MVP his first season in MIA. Just like he likely won't win MVP next season b/c voters will be 'bored' voting for the same guy.

 

Lebron > Jordan

 

 

P.S. Glad there are NBA discussers here now.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Volourn

[Meshugger]

I had to check the videos to understand what flopping is. 

 

My god, why does that exist? You are making the sport as lame as the Italian dives are to football

Edited June 22, 2013 by Meshugger

[alanschu]

The NBA fines particularly bad ones.  There was some in the Indiana-Miami series.  I think that that is new this season.

 

Ever since 1999 though (when I last stopped following NBA Basketball closely), the players have shown themselves to say some awfully silly things.  One of the guys fined, David West, has had contracts in and around $10 million a year for the last 6 seasons.  His words: "I don't care who you are, $5000 is a lot of money." 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBxclfP56sg

 

 

Lebron James is a physical beast.  No way he should get ragdolled like that.  The funny part was pregame he said he doesn't flop haha.

Edited June 22, 2013 by alanschu

[ShadySands]

Yeah, at 6'8" 250 nobody should send him flying like that unless Shaq comes out of retirement... 10 years younger. 

 

I haven't been following basketball all that closely in the past few years in part because of things like flopping. 

 

I've heard it argued that some players will flop and take the fine if it means they might win a close game but I'm really not sure what else the league can do to stop it. I would say to call a technical foul on the player that does it but the players have gotten so good at it that it's not usually caught when it happens but later when the play is reviewed (the point of it is to trick the refs after all)

 

 

 

 

[ShadySands]

 

[alanschu]

Yeah, at 6'8" 250 nobody should send him flying like that unless Shaq comes out of retirement... 10 years younger. 

 

I haven't been following basketball all that closely in the past few years in part because of things like flopping. 

 

I've heard it argued that some players will flop and take the fine if it means they might win a close game but I'm really not sure what else the league can do to stop it. I would say to call a technical foul on the player that does it but the players have gotten so good at it that it's not usually caught when it happens but later when the play is reviewed (the point of it is to trick the refs after all)

 

I think the only way to really change it is to call the game looser.  You still had floppers in the 80s and 90s, but it was done more rarely because otherwise you just look the fool and get scored on (a bit like in the GIF you posted).

 

It's funny because I can agree with the notion that some of the Detroit Pistons stuff went a bit too far, but you tighten up the calling and people will look to take advantage.  It's why I'm not a fan of the handcheck rule, because it meant "ticky tack" fouls became more common, and there's a lot more onus on the officials to try to call *everything* which results in people trying to take advantage.

 

Flopping became so common in attempts to draw charges because refs had a legacy of just not calling anything if players don't fall ("must not have been that much of a charge).  I actually remember being coached that, when taking a charge, don't try to stay on my feet (although he didn't advocate flopping in other aspects).  Though I think competitiveness drives an issue.  I remember doing an *awful* double dribble, and basically called myself on it (I stopped playing before the ref had actually blown the whistle) and my coach was frustrated with me for doing so.  On the one hand, I can understand that perspective as a competitor, but at the same time it kinda sends a pretty ****ty message to a high school kid XD

Edited June 23, 2013 by alanschu

[Volourn]

Flopping has always been common. It has always happened.  People just cry about it more now. I'll worry about flopping when the league actually comes down hard on players who are trying to hurt opponents. That's why a guy like Lebron even thinks about flopping - his opponents literlaly mug him and don't get called for fouls because he'ss trong and he can go through contact.

 

CALL ACTUAL FOULS REF AND PLAYERS WON'T HAVE TO  EXAGGERATE CONTACT SO YOU CAN NOTICE THERE BE CONTACT!

 

It's patehtic to steal players' money for 'flopping' but the league won't enccessarily steal a players' money for injuring an opponent. LMAO

 

 

Oh, and that indiana guy can cry like a little baby all he wants... HE GOT ELIMINATED TWO SEASONS IN A ROW BY THE BEST PLAYER EVER DESPITE BEING THE SO CALLED 'FAVORITES'.

 

 

Long live Lebronnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn Jamessssssssssssssssss      !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[alanschu]

Flopping has always been common. It has always happened.  People just cry about it more now.

 

It has always happened, but I disagree with how frequently it happens now. 

 

 

 

 

I'll worry about flopping when the league actually comes down hard on players who are trying to hurt opponents.

 

I agree that this is a concern.  And not just in basketball.  Further, both the league and refs need to be willing to own up when they realize that a player played them.  For instance, Lebron was able to successfully draw a flagrant foul on an illegal screen

.  It's the second flop, and it's an atrocious call by the referee.  On some level Lebron's teammates need to say "Pick" (something I was taught in Grade 7) to make sure that teammates don't get their bell rung on a screen like that.  I was rubbed out on one like that in high school, although it was a legal pick (and sent me flying as I ran full tilt into a guy that out weighed me by 80 lbs).

 

 

 

 

It's patehtic to steal players' money for 'flopping' but the league won't enccessarily steal a players' money for injuring an opponent. LMAO

 

Players do get fined when the league determines intent to injure.  Flagrant fouls can come with a fine of up to $35,000 (7x what Lebron and West paid for their unsportsmanlike conduct), and can also include suspensions (which cost the players much, much more money).  The problem, of course, becomes determining "intent to injure."

 

Further, it's not stealing as the penalties are a part of the collective bargaining agreement that the NBA Players Association agrees to.  If the player feels the fine is unwarranted and unfair, there's a throng of highly paid lawyers to act on his behalf through the player's union.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and that indiana guy can cry like a little baby all he wants... HE GOT ELIMINATED TWO SEASONS IN A ROW BY THE BEST PLAYER EVER DESPITE BEING THE SO CALLED 'FAVORITES'.

 

Only in Volo's trollo land is the team with the best record in the league, and the one with home court advantage, not be considered the favourite.

 

 

C'mon Volourn, I don't even really watch the NBA anymore and I still know this stuff (and where to find it).  Though you seem to be of the assumption that the sport is a non-contact sport (which any fan of the sport will tell you has never been the case).

 

 

On the lighter side: here's a fun top 10 of MJ, a player that was too busy trying to convert every field goal to be bothered with flopping in order to draw a foul (in fact some of these he does a fantastic job of outright avoiding content despite tons of players coming at him, because he's looking to score the bucket.  #1 remains one of the most impressive hoops I have ever seen.  No need to initiate contact and flop, since that'll just put him to the FT line, when he can slice in between them all for the surefire 2 points.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uxUWADvIYM

Edited June 23, 2013 by alanschu

[Krookie]

Basketball players pretend they're hurt. Hockey players pretend they're not. 

 

 

Good series, but I don't understand how anyone could watch the NBA finals over the NHL finals. 

[alanschu]

Hockey has become pretty infested with diving as well.  Remember Mike Ribeiro?

 

 

In any case, while everyone is comparing Jordan with one of his heir apparents, I was checking out this killer montage of a man who would have had his own influences on MJ's game: The NBA Logo.

 

Enjoy

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEzwR1a8KuA

[Volourn]

"Further, it's not stealing"

 

Yes, it is.

 

 

"Basketball players pretend they're hurt. Hockey players pretend they're not."

 

HAHAHAHA! hahahaha! HAHAHAHA!

 

 

"Only in Volo's trollo land is the team with the best record in the league, and the one with home court advantage, not be considered the favourite."

 

"I don't even really watch the NBA anymore and I still know this stuff"

 

It is obvious you don't watch.

 

All that was said throughout that Indiana series was that theyw ere too big, too deep, too strong, too defensive for Miami to beat. People keep baning on the drums that 'Miamia has no heart, no drive, no will to win'. It was 10x worse versus the Spurs. At best, Miami wass the 'technical default favorite' but most of  the so called experts, media, and 'know it all fans'; all believe Miami would lose.

 

Jordan was a flopper. And, flopping was/is not new just like diving is not a new phenomenon in hockey.

 

 

LONG LIVE LEBRONNNNNNNNNNNN JAMESSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!

Edited June 23, 2013 by Volourn

[Leferd]

For those who appreciate Advanced Statistics.

 

2012-2013 Season:

 

PER (player efficiency rating):

1) LBJ 31.6

2) KD 28.3

 

Win Shares:

1) LBJ 19.3

2) KD 18.9

3) Chris Paul 13.9

 

WS/48min:

1) LBJ .322

2) KD .291

3) CP .287

 

Career/All Time

 

PER

1) Michael Jordan 27.9 per season

2) LBJ 27.65

3) Shaq 26.45

 

WS/48 min

1) MJ .2505

4) CP .2439

6) LBJ .2412

 

......

 

Lebron is getting there, but MJ is still the one to catch.

 

Source: basketball-reference.com

Edited June 23, 2013 by Leferd

[ShadySands]

How important do you think the number of championships he wins will be to his legacy?

 

Does he need to match or beat Jordan's 6? Kobe's 5? Russell's 11?

 

I was discussing it with some friends and it was pretty evenly divided with those who are James fans saying it doesn't matter and those who are James critics saying that it does. Personally, I think it's a factor but not that big of one since there are so many all time greats who never got a single ring 

[Leferd]

Championships help, and generally speaking the better player you are, the the better your team will be. Among the major north american team sports; individual players have more of an impact on a team's performance in basketball than in any other sport.

 

That's what separates true superstars from lesser star players. Other All time greats such as Barkley, Stockton/Malone never won championships unfortunately had to go through Bird, Magic, and Jordan in their eras. But that doesn't take away from their credentials as hHall of Famers.

 

That being said, Bill Russel as great as he was, he's overrated precisely because of his 11 Championships. I'd take Abdul-Jabbar or Chamberlain over him any day of the week. And Robinson, and Olajuwon, and Ewing, and Shaq.

[alanschu]

 

 

"Further, it's not stealing"

 

Yes, it is.

 

Incorrect, but this is the Volo strategy.  Remember when you used to accuse people of lying all the time?  It's funny that you've never held yourself up to your own standards, but then, that's kind of the MO of a troll.

 

 

 

 

"Only in Volo's trollo land is the team with the best record in the league, and the one with home court advantage, not be considered the favourite."

 

"I don't even really watch the NBA anymore and I still know this stuff"

 

It is obvious you don't watch.

 

All that was said throughout that Indiana series was that theyw ere too big, too deep, too strong, too defensive for Miami to beat. People keep baning on the drums that 'Miamia has no heart, no drive, no will to win'. It was 10x worse versus the Spurs. At best, Miami wass the 'technical default favorite' but most of  the so called experts, media, and 'know it all fans'; all believe Miami would lose.

 

Nah, I heard all that.  What you're seeing is the polarization that Miami creates.  That people *want* Miami to not be favourites, doesn't mean that they're not.  Lebron had his best season this year, and his team had a dominating 66 wins this season, tied for the 10th best record ever.  Anyone that didn't consider Miami to be the favourites is misplacing what they *want* to be the case, with actual reality.  The Spurs and the Pacers were tough matchups, but Miami has the best player in the game which is a huge X-Factor in any series.

 

 

 

 

Jordan was a flopper

 

Well, at least we can conclude that neither of us actually watch any basketball! :D

 

 

 

 

LONG LIVE LEBRONNNNNNNNNNNN JAMESSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!

 

It should actually be LEBROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMES.  If you think about it, when you say his name, you always elongate the vowels, not the consonants.  If you're gonna troll, at least do it with good grammar!