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Heh, looks like I mixed Broadwell with Haswell-E, it was info about Haswell-E models they released, not Broadwell. Though I would imagine Broadwell will have 6-8 core models too.

 

Doesn't change my plans though, like you said upgrading to Haswell-E will be quite likely overpriced. Don't know will DDR4 prices drop from the orbit they are bound to jump on launch, but hopefully the worst is over by the time Broadwell comes out. And broadwell's 14 nm process appeals to my inner technology geek.

 

I just hope my current rig I build during the jurassic period holds up that long.

I think Broadwell will still be DDR3, it won't be until Skylake that Intel releases a mainstream desktop CPU with DDR4 support.  The bigger issue that I found when I did some digging around is that it doesn't look like Broadwell desktop chips will launch in 2014 (just low power variants aimed at laptops and mobile) if there will even be Broadwell desktop chips at all.  Intel might just stay with the Haswell refresh until Skylake for their mainstream desktop CPUs.  That would (sadly) make sense since they're basically competing against themselves in the mid to upper desktop segment as AMD has basically given up on trying to compete in that sector of the market.

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Well, balls.

Looks like I have misunderstood Broadwell pretty badly. Not that sure they will have 6-8 cores anymore, found a hint suggesting they are quad cores. Need to wait for more info about them before I make any decisions.

Haswell-E doesn't really appeal to me, I might even build a budget rig to carry me until Skylake gets released.

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Well, Broadwell is still far enough away that we're mostly dealing with rumor and speculation.  I won't be ready to build a new rig for several months either way, but at the same time, I can't really wait for Skylake and I certainly don't expect AMD to offer up anything competitive in the area where I'm looking to purchase (mid to upper desktop) until at the very least the Bulldozer architecture has run its course and they put out something completely new (not a Bulldozer based architecture like Steamroller), and even then, who knows whether AMD will ever even try to get back into that area of the market (they straight up can't with anything Bulldozer based, that's for sure)?  If Broadwell winds up being a no show in desktop form, I may just have to go with Haswell, or even Ivy Bridge, assuming they still sell those.  It's just the sad state of affairs that Intel can sit on their hands with the desktop chips and concentrate on dropping power consumption as they try to push into the ARM-dominated mobile market because AMD has zero presence in the mid to upper desktop segment (even the top of the line Vischera chip struggles to beat old Phenom II chips is some cases and is several generations behind Intel chips in performance and light years behind in power consumption).  We're in the near worst case scenario where Intel has no competition whatsoever from AMD in the mid to upper desktop segment and they know it.  Intel knows damn well that neither Steamroller (it doesn't look like there will even be any FX series Steamroller CPUs) nor the upcoming Excavator has anything that can even remotely challenge them in that sector so why bother putting money into R&D in that sector of the market when people have no choice but to buy their chips anyway?

 

We desperately need AMD to rebound.  They're holding on in lower end of desktops and the laptop segments because their APUs still hold an edge in the graphical horsepower department, but even that has almost completely been erased with Iris Pro.  AMD desperately needs to hit a home run with HSA.  If HSA isn't the game changer they're pimping it to be AMD will likely become increasingly more irrelevant as a CPU manufacturer or even cease to exist as a CPU manufacturer all together.  That would be the worst possible thing that could happen for everybody, Intel fanboys included.  We would all wind up paying the price, literally, if that happens.

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What do you guys think, will Haswell-E have a 600 dollar 8-core version or will it be reserved for the 1k one?

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What do you guys think, will Haswell-E have a 600 dollar 8-core version or will it be reserved for the 1k one?

Hopefully it's like with Ivy Bridge-E, with both the $1000 and $600 variants having the extra cores.

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Hopefully it's like with Ivy Bridge-E, with both the $1000 and $600 variants having the extra cores.

 

I'm coming from a Q6600 and really want to make the upgrade to the latest tech, but that 1k variant is beyond my reach.

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Hopefully it's like with Ivy Bridge-E, with both the $1000 and $600 variants having the extra cores.

 

I'm coming from a Q6600 and really want to make the upgrade to the latest tech, but that 1k variant is beyond my reach.

 

It comes down to what you plan to do with the machine.  If it's mostly for gaming, then Haswell-E would be a very poor choice on a price/performance basis.  In fact, Haswell-E will be a poor choice on a price/performance basis for any application since you'll be overpaying for the CPU, the mobo, and the memory, it's just exceptionally poor a choice for gaming since, at least initially, the extra cores of the upper Haswell-E models will give you zero gain over Haswell (or Ivy Bridge, for that matter).  That may change in the future as games will supposedly become more multi-threaded so they can take advantage of more cores, but at the moment, the vast majority of games don't even utilize 4 cores to their maximum potential.  Even then, the GPU will still be much more of a determining factor.  For other, heavily multi-threaded, applications you may see substantial gains with Haswell-E, but you will still be paying a steep premium for it.

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It comes down to what you plan to do with the machine.  If it's mostly for gaming, then Haswell-E would be a very poor choice on a price/performance basis.  In fact, Haswell-E will be a poor choice on a price/performance basis for any application since you'll be overpaying for the CPU, the mobo, and the memory, it's just exceptionally poor a choice for gaming since, at least initially, the extra cores of the upper Haswell-E models will give you zero gain over Haswell (or Ivy Bridge, for that matter).  That may change in the future as games will supposedly become more multi-threaded so they can take advantage of more cores, but at the moment, the vast majority of games don't even utilize 4 cores to their maximum potential.  Even then, the GPU will still be much more of a determining factor.  For other, heavily multi-threaded, applications you may see substantial gains with Haswell-E, but you will still be paying a steep premium for it.

 

Yeah, I will be using it for gaming and rendering (3dsmax, softimage, artlantis and similar stuff). But it's mostly future proofing, I bought this rig over 5 years ago and it served me well, processor wise, to this day. What I want now is to get in on the 8-core and DDR-4 so I can leave it alone for another 5 years. It all depends if the prices are feasible for me, mainly the processor cost and the ram cost.

 

And I don't really like that the non E variants from intel are using paste instead of solder.

Edited by Sarex
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It comes down to what you plan to do with the machine.  If it's mostly for gaming, then Haswell-E would be a very poor choice on a price/performance basis.  In fact, Haswell-E will be a poor choice on a price/performance basis for any application since you'll be overpaying for the CPU, the mobo, and the memory, it's just exceptionally poor a choice for gaming since, at least initially, the extra cores of the upper Haswell-E models will give you zero gain over Haswell (or Ivy Bridge, for that matter).  That may change in the future as games will supposedly become more multi-threaded so they can take advantage of more cores, but at the moment, the vast majority of games don't even utilize 4 cores to their maximum potential.  Even then, the GPU will still be much more of a determining factor.  For other, heavily multi-threaded, applications you may see substantial gains with Haswell-E, but you will still be paying a steep premium for it.

 

Yeah, I will be using it for gaming and rendering (3dsmax, softimage, artlantis and similar stuff). But it's mostly future proofing, I bought this rig over 5 years ago and it served me well, processor wise, to this day. What I want now is to get in on the 8-core and DDR-4 so I can leave it alone for another 5 years. It all depends if the prices are feasible for me, mainly the processor cost and the ram cost.

 

 

Yeah, I have similar ideas about future proofing.  Basically, Haswell-E is our only option for DDR4 (and likely octa core) until Skylake (outside of getting an insanely expensive Xeon), which will be here late 2015 at the earliest, quite possibly not until 2016.  I can't wait until then, I'm building a new rig this year, that's set in stone.  Like you, I want to see just how steep a premium LGA 2011-3 mobos and DDR4 memory will be compared to LGA 1150 and DDR3 memory.  I'm guessing the price difference will be staggering, but only time will tell.  For me, while I plan to use the computer for a lot more than gaming, I don't expect to be doing a lot of heavy duty encoding and such, which would really benefit from the extra cores.  While I certainly wouldn't mind having the extra cores, 4 cores will almost certainly be plenty for anything I want to do with the rig, gaming included.  Even just half the money I save on getting a Haswell CPU (or Broadwell if magically desktop Broadwell does happen and happens this year) instead of Haswell-E and a LGA 1150 mobo instead of LGA 2011-3 and DDR3 RAM instead of DDR4 RAM would allow me to either get a better video card (e.g go from GTX770 to GTX780Ti) or get a second video card to SLI/Crossfire.  Either way, it will benefit my gaming performance far more and for less money to put some of the saved money into a better or second GPU, plus DD4 will likely not grant much, if any, performance increase over DDR3 (besides lowered power consumption) for likely a couple of years, until the faster clocked DDR4 RAM arrives.

 

I don't know, it's still a game of speculation until Haswell-E nears and prices for all these components are revealed.

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Well I'm only changing mobo/CPU and ram. My budget for that is around 1000 euros. I have a 560 Ti which is still doing work, though I would replace it next year.

 

Pretty much, I guess we will have to wait and see. If they go with some insane prices I will go with the Haswell refresh or Broadwell if it comes out and probably get a new graphics card too.

Edited by Sarex

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Yep, I'm in a similar boat.  I have a separate bank account I try to put some money in every month, that's my new rig fund.  Currently I have $1000 in there.  By the time I plan to build a new rig (roughly half a year from now) I hope to have $2000 in there.  First thing I'm getting is a 1440p monitor, likely 27".  Prices on 1440p monitors have been dropping and hopefully by the time I am ready to do this I can get one for under $300 if I shop around, but let's just say $300 for sake of argument.  That leaves me with $1700.  So if I spend $600 on a Haswell-E chip, then (purely speculative figures based on nothing but halfassed guesses) $350 on a LGA 2011-3 mobo, then another $350 on DDR4 RAM, that leaves me with $600 to buy the case, PSU, SSD/HDD, and GPU.  Even if I go cheapskate and get a HDD rather than SSD and get a reasonably priced case/PSU combo, that still only leaves me at best $400 to spend on a GPU.  If I instead spend $350 on a Haswell chip (and that would be the top of the line model), $150 on a LGA 1150 mobo, and $150 on DDR3 (2400) RAM, that now leaves me with $1050 for the case, PSU, SSD/HDD, and GPU, which would allow me to get a SSD and still get a better GPU.

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I bought a Seasonic x660 in anticipation of a new build, I have a Vertex 4 ssd which is currently on a sata2 mb (it should preform a lot better on sata3) and an old Antec Sonata III case, which I can't afford to replace in my current budget (I don't want to go cheap on a case). I should have a little over 1000 euros by the end of the year. So 500-550 euros on a CPU, 250-300 on a MB(Though I would like to go all out and get the Asus Rampage V), around 100 for RAM (I don't plan to go all out for RAM, because as you said it will not offer much early on) and the rest on a decent cooling solution (the new noctua nh-d14 successor is looking nice).

 

edit: Now that I think about it, I would need a new case, the lga 2011 boards are mostly EATX, which would not fit in my case. Hmmmm a **** in my plan. Maybe it's time to go supper Jew. XD

Edited by Sarex

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Futureproofing is almost always a false economy, maybe 20% more usable life for 200% of the cost. Just get a non-OEM copy of Windows 7 so the key doesn't get tied to your motherboard and upgrade that year early.

 

 

Just made a tech purchase of my own, an X-rite i1Display Pro colorimeter. Since it's on the way from Amazon I figured I'd throw in a few more things to make the most of shipping costs, so I bought a couple CPU heatsinks, a Scythe Mugen 4 and a Scythe Big Shuriken 2 because they have no Australian distributor. Also a 7" serrated ceramic knife and a set of three scissors because why not.


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Intel just had a conference call detailing their plans for the rest of the year - some new stuff amongst the old.

 

- Socketed Broadwell with Iris Pro IGP - fairly niche use in my view and will likely be priced out of sensible range

- Octacore Haswell-E with DDR4 support as expected

- Haswell K series refresh featuring improved thermal interface to help with Haswell's notorious temperature issues, also new 9 series platform

- Fully unlocked 20th Anniversary Pentium - uhhhh, okay.


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Intel just had a conference call detailing their plans for the rest of the year - some new stuff amongst the old.

 

- Socketed Broadwell with Iris Pro IGP - fairly niche use in my view and will likely be priced out of sensible range

- Octacore Haswell-E with DDR4 support as expected

- Haswell K series refresh featuring improved thermal interface to help with Haswell's notorious temperature issues, also new 9 series platform

- Fully unlocked 20th Anniversary Pentium - uhhhh, okay.

I don't much care about Iris Pro IGP as I'll be getting a dedicated GPU anyway, but does this confirm higher end Broadwell desktop chips?  I hope so.  Seems a bit weird to put an IGP into higher end desktop chips, though.  Won't the people in that segment of the market be getting a dedicated GPU anyway?  It's down to Haswell refresh or Broadwell for me, I've mostly talked myself out of Haswell-E.  I don't know if I trust Intel about the "Improved TIM".  Does that mean they'll use better paste or just more of the garbage they've been using?  I'll likely just drop 10 bucks on a small tube of Arctic Silver, it's a small price to pay for the peace of mind of knowing the chip will run nice and cool. 

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I don't know if I trust Intel about the "Improved TIM".  Does that mean they'll use better paste or just more of the garbage they've been using? I'll likely just drop 10 bucks on a small tube of Arctic Silver, it's a small price to pay for the peace of mind of knowing the chip will run nice and cool.

Who knows, but any improvement with the chip/TIM contact would be very welcome. People have been able to get their CPU's over 10 degrees celsius cooler by applying their own paste in there.

 

But still, I'm starting to lean over i5-4670K. I bet I'll be able to get one from a good sale when stores are replacing the older models with newer ones and I'm sure it's more than enough to carry me until Skylake arrives. Also leaves room for a SSD drive in my budget.

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I don't know if I trust Intel about the "Improved TIM".  Does that mean they'll use better paste or just more of the garbage they've been using? I'll likely just drop 10 bucks on a small tube of Arctic Silver, it's a small price to pay for the peace of mind of knowing the chip will run nice and cool.

Who knows, but any improvement with the chip/TIM contact would be very welcome. People have been able to get their CPU's over 10 degrees celsius cooler by applying their own paste in there.

 

But still, I'm starting to lean over i5-4670K. I bet I'll be able to get one from a good sale when stores are replacing the older models with newer ones and I'm sure it's more than enough to carry me until Skylake arrives. Also leaves room for a SSD drive in my budget.

 

Yeah, further reading makes it seem more and more implausible that Broadwell will actually appear this year.  While Intel hasn't given any sort of date, the sentiment I'm gathering is that most people think it will be no earlier than CES next year (which is in January), which would make it far too late for me as my build will likely happen in August or September.  It makes sense since, if you're Intel, and you release the Haswell refresh in June or July, why would you release another chip 3 months or so later that would cut into your Haswell sales?  I'm not sure if I'll wind up getting an i5 or an i7.  The hyperthreading wouldn't do much (if anything) for me gaming wise, but it would be nice to have for other applications.  I guess how much I'd managed to get saved up at that point will be the determining factor.

 

As an aside, "Devil's Canyon" is a pretty bitchin' name for a chip.

Edited by Keyrock

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Intel just had a conference call detailing their plans for the rest of the year - some new stuff amongst the old.

 

- Socketed Broadwell with Iris Pro IGP - fairly niche use in my view and will likely be priced out of sensible range

- Octacore Haswell-E with DDR4 support as expected

- Haswell K series refresh featuring improved thermal interface to help with Haswell's notorious temperature issues, also new 9 series platform

- Fully unlocked 20th Anniversary Pentium - uhhhh, okay.

I don't much care about Iris Pro IGP as I'll be getting a dedicated GPU anyway, but does this confirm higher end Broadwell desktop chips?  I hope so.  Seems a bit weird to put an IGP into higher end desktop chips, though.  Won't the people in that segment of the market be getting a dedicated GPU anyway?  It's down to Haswell refresh or Broadwell for me, I've mostly talked myself out of Haswell-E.  I don't know if I trust Intel about the "Improved TIM".  Does that mean they'll use better paste or just more of the garbage they've been using?  I'll likely just drop 10 bucks on a small tube of Arctic Silver, it's a small price to pay for the peace of mind of knowing the chip will run nice and cool.

 

The properly hardcore people will just run bare-die! :p

 

 

But I'll take any improvement, really, I'm not even going to consider going at a $200-300 CPU with a knife or pliers just to get the heatspreader off (and of course, voiding the warranty).


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Intel just had a conference call detailing their plans for the rest of the year - some new stuff amongst the old.

 

- Socketed Broadwell with Iris Pro IGP - fairly niche use in my view and will likely be priced out of sensible range

- Octacore Haswell-E with DDR4 support as expected

- Haswell K series refresh featuring improved thermal interface to help with Haswell's notorious temperature issues, also new 9 series platform

- Fully unlocked 20th Anniversary Pentium - uhhhh, okay.

I don't much care about Iris Pro IGP as I'll be getting a dedicated GPU anyway, but does this confirm higher end Broadwell desktop chips?  I hope so.  Seems a bit weird to put an IGP into higher end desktop chips, though.  Won't the people in that segment of the market be getting a dedicated GPU anyway?  It's down to Haswell refresh or Broadwell for me, I've mostly talked myself out of Haswell-E.  I don't know if I trust Intel about the "Improved TIM".  Does that mean they'll use better paste or just more of the garbage they've been using?  I'll likely just drop 10 bucks on a small tube of Arctic Silver, it's a small price to pay for the peace of mind of knowing the chip will run nice and cool.

 

The properly hardcore people will just run bare-die! :p

 

 

But I'll take any improvement, really, I'm not even going to consider going at a $200-300 CPU with a knife or pliers just to get the heatspreader off (and of course, voiding the warranty).

 

A knife!?  Pliers!?  Jesus Christ almighty, I'm not letting this guy within 1000 yards of my CPU.  You use a Q-tip and a little bit of rubbing alcohol or acetone.  When you buy a CPU, generally the CPU and heatsink come separate, they're not pre-attached.

Edited by Keyrock

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I think you misunderstand the Haswell issue then. It's absolutely nothing to do with the TIM between the heatsink and the CPU - or more accurately, the heatsink and the heatspreader. It's to do with the TIM between the heatspreader and the die underneath. Prior to Ivy Bridge, the heatspreader was soldered on to the actual CPU die, so there was minimal loss in conductivity. As a cost-cutting measure in Ivy Bridge, they opted to machine the heatspreaders with a lot more tolerance, resulting in a larger gap between surfaces, and used pretty ordinary thermal goop in between it and the die to fill out that gap. You cannot fix that without physically prying/levering off the heatspreader, which is obviously a pretty risky thing to do.

 

 

A picture tells a thousand words, so here's one of a de-lidded Haswell CPU. It's the thick layer of grey goop here that's the issue.

 

fe5mny.jpg

Edited by Humanoid
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Oh, yeah I did misunderstand, and I'm not sure I'm willing to pry apart the heatspreader and chip.  I'll likely still put my own thermal paste between the heatsink and heatspreader.

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The safest way I've seen delidding done, was with a vise, a block of wood and a hammer.

 

 

 

 

Bare in mind that you should use a proper vise.

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^ Yikes.  I do have a proper vise and all the necessary equipment at work, but the idea of going at a $350 chip with a hammer doesn't sit well with me.  I'd probably feel less queasy with the scoring it with a razor knife method then using a hammer and a block of wood.  I really hope Intel follows through with their claims and puts some proper quality thermal paste between the chip and heatspreader.  Soldered on would be the best, but that ain't gonna happen.  Spend a few bucks for some Arctic Silver, you cheap ass bastards!

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So, I'm finalizing the last details on my upcoming new build and am leaning on getting Intel Xeon E3-1230v3 over i5 4670k and i7 4770k.

The way I'm seeing it, Xeon loses very little with it's bit lower clock speed compared to i5 and i7 and rolls over i5 4670k if the game can use hyperthreading, which is rare now but hopefully gets more common in the future. i5 4670k does perform better if the game doesn't support HT, especially if it is heavily overclocked, but the speed gain should be miniscule even when OC'd unless the game is heavily CPU bound such as RTS games which I haven't really played since Red Alert 2. And while i7 4770k would have the best of both worlds, it is a bit overpriced in my opinion and I'm fairly sure I wouldn't really need that extra horsepower in the end, hell, I'm still rocking with my over 5 years old Q9550.

So, the Xeon E3-1230v3, or the coming refresh version of it, isn't looking bad at all to me. Does this make any sense or can anyone come up with a reason to go i5/i7 instead?

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