NWN2 influences: what to take and what to leave

[Failion]

NWN2 the only good thing I remember was the story and that some of the combat animations were cool. Storm of zehir map gameplay was okay. Not many interesting locales to find. Not exactly interactive or innovative. 

[sarkthas]

I have played through it a few times, I actually thought it was decent enough. 

If there was anything I would like to include, it would be the stronghold.

 

Just never let me sit through anything like the Harvest Fair ever again...Even if you could skip it.

[Faerunner]

For NWN2, I love the dry, witty, sarcastic humor and the story and roleplay elements, like the Harvest Fair (yes) and especially the Act 2 Trial. Unfortunately, most of the game is "go kill this baddie" or "go fetch that item" or "go save that idiot," but the few instances of dialogue, role-playing, creative problem-solving and non-violent solutions were very fun. In fact, the entire Trial sequence from beginning to end was so great I actually couldn't continue with the game for several weeks because going back to just killing enemies, saving hostages and fetching items quests felt so boring and disheartening by comparison. 

 

For MotB, I love virtually everything. I love how the game has a central theme ("Mask of the Betrayer") and the entire game revolves around that theme. The characters, companions, story, quests, aesthetics, lighting, colors, ending... the entire story is tight as a drum and every bit is relevant to the central theme or idea. 

 

The only thing I don't like about NWN2 is the combat. I don't think it's great or terrible, but I wouldn't mind losing it. Same with the way classes are structured, partiulcarly nature-based classses like rangers and druids. The ranger animal comanions leave a lot to be desired and same with druid shapeshifting. Since the creators have already shared how they basically intend to structure their classes and handle combat though, I'm not worried.

[Fearabbit]

I just remembered one thing I really didn't like about NWN2: It was the fact that the main character didn't have any class-specific dialogue. At least I think that was the case, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

But I kind of remember playing a bard and being very annoyed by my conversations with Grobnar, the bard companion, and by his dialogue in general. He kept going on and on about what life as a bard is like, and about his poetry and whatever, and I couldn't even once say something like "you don't have to tell me, I'm a bard myself you know". As soon as he became a party member, he was the bard. I think I even remember instances where other NPCs would say "I see you have a bard in your party" or something like that, completely ignoring the fact that I was a bard myself.

There was no recognition of my personal abilities at all, and that made me feel a bit... ignored. ^^

 

That's not a problem unique for NWN2, however. Many RPGs don't acknowledge the main character's background. At best, they have some race-specific dialogue.

[Odd Hermit]

I just remembered one thing I really didn't like about NWN2: It was the fact that the main character didn't have any class-specific dialogue. At least I think that was the case, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

But I kind of remember playing a bard and being very annoyed by my conversations with Grobnar, the bard companion, and by his dialogue in general. He kept going on and on about what life as a bard is like, and about his poetry and whatever, and I couldn't even once say something like "you don't have to tell me, I'm a bard myself you know". As soon as he became a party member, he was the bard. I think I even remember instances where other NPCs would say "I see you have a bard in your party" or something like that, completely ignoring the fact that I was a bard myself.

There was no recognition of my personal abilities at all, and that made me feel a bit... ignored. ^^

 

That's not a problem unique for NWN2, however. Many RPGs don't acknowledge the main character's background. At best, they have some race-specific dialogue.

 

Personally I often got annoyed by class specific stuff. But I tended to be somewhat multiclassed so it wouldn't make sense much of the time.

 

It also feels a bit gamey, unless it's something more specific they comment on, like if a deity is shared or there's a political aspect to the class(harper scout and such). "Hey there, I see you're a _insert class here_." kind of lines often just feel fake. "Yeah...I just took one level of that class for a feat/class skill dump man."

Edited May 30, 2013 by Odd Hermit

[Lephys]

It also feels a bit gamey, unless it's something more specific they comment on, like if a deity is shared or there's a political aspect to the class(harper scout and such). "Hey there, I see you're a _insert class here_." kind of lines often just feel fake. "Yeah...I just took one level of that class for a feat/class skill dump man."

 

 

What if your level in that class actually affected the conveyance of your appropriately related skills and experience that class encompasses? Like, if you just took one level, they wouldn't say "Ahh, I see you're a such-and-such!," but rather, "Maybe you've dabbled a bit in swordsmanship, but you seem a bit green." Maybe being level 5 in that class would garner a different reaction (that might actually affect whether or not the NPC shares info with you, etc... reactivity stuff), and being level 9 or so would change it yet again.

 

So, basically, you could have a spot in the game where you're understood to be within a certain range of levels (maybe 8-10), and you've got the potential for this NPC to yield info/quests/aide/some awesome reaction, and you've basically got the reaction tiered based on your multiclassing choices. Took at least 8 levels of Ranger? You get the highest tier of reactivity out of him. Only took 4-5 levels of Ranger? You get less, but maybe he still does something spiffy. Only 1 level of Ranger? Maybe he hardly reacts differently at all. NO levels of Ranger? He just dismisses you as a candidate for ANY of that "chain" of reactivity.

 

The number of tiers and such is all arbitrary example details. It's more the general idea of how to have more in-depth reactivity.

[Micamo]

Much more important to me than having my class abilities recognized by NPCs is for my abilities to actually matter when it comes to what I can do in dialogues.

 

Like, I remember that one quest where you had to protect the old dude who had the shard. The first thing that went through my head is "Okay, in case bad **** goes down, I need to get the shard from this guy before he croaks and it gets stolen or whatever. Where is it?"

 

"It's in my pocket, and I intend to keep it there."

 

Ooookay? Can I press him further on that? Can I pickpocket it off him? Can I cast a divination to see if he's lying or not? ****, can I even just roll mother****ing sense motive? Nope. You're supposed to just let it drop, and I was really ****ing suspicious right there.

 

You fight off the demons that assault the house and then comes the big reveal: He didn't have the shard all along! (WHYYYYY!?) He gave it to Miss Dies-Before-Saying-Any-Lines, the apparent prostitute who is actually a member of the Nine. By the way, I love one of your options is to be all surprised that she was a member of the Nine in disguise. Oh, so I'm not allowed to roleplay a sensibly cautious planner, but I *am* allowed to roleplay a misogynist asshat? **** you.

 

Anyway, I guess it's okay that she took the shard so she could take it somewhere safe and fortified like Castle Never. I'm sure they can handle fighting off the warlock's forces ther- wait, wait, wait, she took it to the Moonstone Mask? A brothel? ALONE!?? Okay, I'll teleport there right away and get the shard- oh, no teleport either? Great.

 

I *walk* over to the moonstone mask on the other side of the city to find it filled with dead hookers. Wonderful. I arrive just in time to find Miss Strong-Female-Character dead and the not-villain warlock (who I later find out is Ammon mother****ing Jerro) teleporting away giving a speech about how evil he is.

 

Wait, why can he teleport and I can't!? Don't give me that "he's way more powerful than you" bull**** because I've got 7th level spells, I should be casting Greater Teleport by now. Furthermore, why does my character just ****ing stand there!? Dimensional anchor! Bigsby's Grasping Hand! Silence! Evard's Black Tentacles! Web! Grease! Ray of Frost! A ****ing crossbow bolt! ANYTHING!!?! No, you have to stand there and be totally terrified of this villain that the DM is downright cheating to make look more competent than he actually is. If this was a tabletop game and my DM tried to pull this I'd have kicked him in the nuts, went home, and never played with him again.

 

So, uhh, Lord Nasher, you have some explaining to do.

 

1. Why did the old man hang onto the shard until the last second? To deliberately lead the attacker there? Wouldn't it have been safer to just move it to a safer location as soon as it was realized that the shard made him a target?

 

2. Even assuming this whole switcheroo thing was a good plan (and it wasn't) why did you give it to Miss Name-Doesn't-Matter, and not, say, a high-level wizard who can teleport (hah!) away from innocents as fast as possible, and who is already a target thanks to having four shards already in her possession?

 

3. Why didn't you have her go to the most fortified place possible (like, say, Castle Never) to fight off any pursuers? Were you hoping her disguise as a prostitute and hanging out at the brothel would trick Ammon? Uhh, news flash, Nasher! If he has access to divinations powerful enough to locate the shard in Lord Smellypants' possession, he can also find it in the possession of some hooker. Unless you, you know, have A WIZARD (gee, I wonder where you could find one of those?) put some decent anti-divination abjurations on it.

 

4. Even if you could justify why she would need to be the one to take the shard, and that the brothel would be the safest place to hide it (you can't), why did you send me to guard Lord Oldguy the Incontinent (who already had plenty of armed guards) instead of the larger number of innocents over at the Moonstone Mask? Were you afraid I wouldn't want to disguise myself as a hooker to keep up the cover? Why didn't you ask? Giving up my magic items for the duration would have sucked but as long as I didn't have to sleep with anybody I could dress up the role and my dignity could have taken one for the team. Did you think Miss Never-Gets-Mentioned-Again was just so much more competent than me that she could handle protecting the shard by herself? Or, is it because you think Lord Lecherousprick was somehow more valuable and worth protecting than the 20 or so hookers who were murdered by Ammon and his demons? What, just because they're sex workers they don't count as people or something? **** you.

 

 

As usual with bumbling allies in NWN2, you aren't allowed to ask any of these questions. You just get to say "Maybe the plan would have gone better if you had told me what's going on." In response, he just shuts you down and says "That was my decision to make, not yours."

 

No, Lord Nasher, but it is my decision whether I plane shift you to the demiplane of infinite torture as punishment for being such a dunce! You just got a bunch of innocent people upright murdered for literally no justifiable reason (and you can screw up protecting the old dude, so it's possible for the plan to accomplish absolutely nothing at all). This isn't the first retarded thing you've done but it's the worst I've seen you do so far (but not the dumbest thing I'll see him do before the end of the game, as unbelievable as that may sound). You're the most incompetent authority figure I've ever met, and I think it's irresponsible to let you continue to breathe after this, let alone let you keep ruling Neverwinter, let alone keep following orders from you! (Oh, but you have to keep following his orders anyway because you signed up to be a squire. **** you, Obsidian.)

[Stun]

Really? You're lamenting the fact that your character can't teleport? I suppose you'd call the story *great* if you could teleport? Sure.... You'd simply be able to teleport when the villian does... And have a magical cat-and-mouse chace with the villain, then clobber him and take the shard back. Yeah, that'd be GREAT writing

 

....and the game would end up being 3 hours long, and plotless.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Stun

[Fearabbit]

I think Micamo makes some good points. The problem for me isn't that teleporting isn't possible, but that I'm not allowed to even try it. It wouldn't be a problem if the game let me try it only to tell me "For some reason, you can't teleport to the brothel. Something fishy is going on!" Of course, if a game has certain features and keeps on disabling them in order to tell its story, then that is bad writing.

All the stuff about actually verifying if that old man has the shard is spot on, too. The game often forces me to roleplay a complete idiot who is always surprised when people betray him or lie to him. I am not allowed to be suspicious.

 

Concerning class-related dialogue: I don't mean stuff like "I see that you're a rogue...", that really is pretty annoying. But when the wizard says "A peasant like you could never understand the intricacies of magical incantations. I pity your stunted intellect." and I'm a goddamn wizard of the same level as him, then I want to have the option to vehemently tell him that. Or better yet, the character shouldn't even make that obviously wrong remark in the first place.

This is what I mean. NWN2 often acted as if my main character was a very specific type of character, namely a fighter with no knowledge in thievery (Neeshka's dialogue), poetry and songs (Grobnar's dialogue), magic (the wizard and the sorcerer whose names elude me) and so on and so forth.

[Quadrone]

 

Personally, I thought NWN2 was *great*. And to tie this to the thread topic, I think NWN2 did a few things exceptionally well and Project eternity could take a few hints.

 

 

No. Just no.

 

RE Topic:

Very little and the more the better.

[Micamo]

Really? You're lamenting the fact that your character can't teleport? I suppose you'd call the story *great* if you could teleport? Sure.... You'd simply be able to teleport when the villian does... And have a magical cat-and-mouse chace with the villain, then clobber him and take the shard back. Yeah, that'd be GREAT writing

 

....and the game would end up being 3 hours long, and plotless.

 

Number one, not being able to teleport is by far the LEAST of my problems with that quest, and with the game in general (though there are tons of situations where being able to teleport would have saved a lot of time and effort, especially after 9th level).

 

Number two, the villains are able to teleport, and this just rubs me the wrong way. Taking powers away from the PCs to give them to overpowered Villain Sues is a pretty huge red flag that your DM is a total hack, if not one of the biggest.

 

Number three, if a DM doesn't want teleporting in her game she can make her own setting (or modify an existing one) and just say "Hey guys, Teleport doesn't exist in this world." I'd accept that. The problem is we're playing in Forgotten Realms, where teleportation, divinations, resurrection, illusions, etc. all exist, the player just isn't allowed to take advantage of them for no well-justified reason (yes, SOME of them would be hard to implement in an open-ended way because this is a CRPG, but the player should at least be allowed to take advantage of these powers in scripted events). Then the game calls attention to the mysterious absence of these abilities by making certain aspects of the plot rely upon the player not having decent magic. It's just terrible writing all around.

 

Number four, I've played in tabletop campaigns where I can teleport, and they somehow didn't have this problem. What's Obsidian's excuse?

 

Concerning class-related dialogue: I don't mean stuff like "I see that you're a rogue...", that really is pretty annoying. But when the wizard says "A peasant like you could never understand the intricacies of magical incantations. I pity your stunted intellect." and I'm a goddamn wizard of the same level as him, then I want to have the option to vehemently tell him that. Or better yet, the character shouldn't even make that obviously wrong remark in the first place.

 

Yeah, and unlike you, I didn't ban conjuration, you dumb ****!* I bet that extra transmutation slot per day didn't come much in handy given open-ended polymorph and shapechange are out, huh?

 

*"When I selected my banned schools, teleport was still a transmutation spell! It's not my fault the laws of reality have been updated since then!"

[Stun]

So... Your issue is with the unfairness. ie., The villian can do X but you can't.... and worse, the DM allows the villian to do X, but you can't, in order to advance the plot. Alright, fine. That's a fair gripe.

 

....Except when it comes to NWN2, which is so apologetic on this point that they give the PC and his party *sole* access to the single most elite power in the entire realms: Immortality. In NWN2, when an enemy falls in battle, they're DEAD. Period. Even if they're part of an enemy party that contains a high level Cleric that can cast ressurect/raise dead. Not so for the PC and his gang. They cannot die. They can only be knocked unconscious, temporarily, They bounce right back up at the end of battle, or during battle as soon as a mid-level cleric raises them (or even a low level fighter with a raise dead scroll raises them).

 

But I digress. This discussion is pointless, and retarded. It's as if NWN2 is the only RPG you've ever played. Well? Is it? Show me a Crpg that doesn't use enemy 'cheating" to advance its plots. In fact all of them do. All the classics do, at least. BG2? Yep. Irenicus And Bodhi teleport away from you...multiple times....in order to advance the plot. (And Bodhi's not even a spell caster) IWD1 and IWD2? Yep, the main villians in those 2 games teleport away from you. In fact, they teleport away from you after teleporting TO you in the first place for no reason but to taunt you.

 

Even planescape Torment has cheating villians. TTO has the power to send shadows after you wherever you may be. Trias has spells you will never be able to cast. etc.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Stun

[Micamo]

No, the salient issue here is the dissonance between what I expect my character to be capable of doing, and what my character is actually able to do. The game even does this with spells that are actually implemented: A silence on Ammon at the moonstone mask would have solved so many damned problems (like Shandra would have survived), but I can't.

 

What I hope to see in Project Eternity is that, when a problem appears that can probably be solved (at least partially) with the application of my spells, I can actually cast the spell right there and solve the problem. This goes for everything my character can do.

 

Also, not being forced to work for complete ****ing morons would help too.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Micamo

[Stun]

No, the salient issue here is the dissonance between what I expect my character to be capable of doing, and what my character is actually able to do. The game even does this with spells that are actually implemented: A silence on Ammon at the moonstone mask would have solved so many damned problems (like Shandra would have survived), but I can't.

Ok, you're forcing me to Over-defend NWN2, which was never my intention, as it's been my stance since my first post on this thread that its main story is a bit convoluted and contrived.

 

But you know full well the devs covered their asses with Ammon Jerro. He's NOT using his own power to do the things you're citing. He's using the collective power of his enslaved demons and devils. The story points this out to the player about 50 times. Everyone from the Golem outside his Haven, to the various named fiends inside Warn you point-blank that as long as they're under his command, his power is practically absolute. Which means, No, your silence spell probably wouldn't have worked on him (not that it matters. AFAIK, He's already got the subvocal casting perk when you recuit him lol)

 

As for wanting your magic to solve the plot-problems that arise... yeah, that sounds like a great idea on paper. After all, there's no magically sealed door that a Disentigrate spell can't destroy. And there's no teleporting character than a Dimension anchor can't hold in place. But you'll notice one thing: No *good* High fantasy story can be made with those types of rules. Only a low fantasy story can (Ie. a politics of man-type of plott.... like the ones the Witcher series has.) Of course the trade off is that in those types of stories, the player will not be able to cast silence, or disentigrate, or whatever type of "problem-solving" spell that the high fantasy games give you.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Stun

[Micamo]

I thought that only applied to while he's in his manse? I still cry foul (what, did he get the demons to give him Teleport as an SU somehow?) but that's at least marginally better than just being invincible because the writers won't allow you to even try to harm him.

 

And, uhh, once again, I've played in tabletop campaigns that were great fun where I had all those powers and more. Why can't you do it in a CRPG? I like using magic to be creative, it's what attracts me to playing casters in the first place. Remember, when you write for a game you care about what the player experiences, not about what it'd look like from a third party reading the story of the player as a book or whatever.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Micamo

[centurionofprix]

Even planescape Torment has cheating villians. TTO has the power to send shadows after you wherever you may be. Trias has spells you will never be able to cast. etc.

That isn't cheating. TTO and Trias are different kinds of being from the Nameless One. The argument as it relates to NWN2 is about teleportation spells, which aren't abilities exclusively possessed by Jerro, and the way teleportation is used to decide crucial events in the plot while the player for some reason cannot use it (or use the other spells named above to prevent it). Or even attempt to use it. The writing in these scenes doesn't make sense at all, while TTO's shadows certainly do.

Edited May 31, 2013 by centurionofprix

[Stun]

And, uhh, once again, I've played in tabletop campaigns that were great fun where I had all those powers and more. Why can't you do it in a CRPG?

Because in Tabletop, a decent DM can think on the fly and even *adjust* the plot when the players come up with an ingenius magical solution that he/she didn't anticipate. In a CRPG, though, if the player manages to, say, destroy the main villian via a lucky roll with his Chromatic Orb Spell in chapter 1, then that means he just broke the game. And Ironically enough, history shows that games who's plots can be broken by smart players tend to be bashed as BAD GAMES

 

 

 

Even planescape Torment has cheating villians. TTO has the power to send shadows after you wherever you may be. Trias has spells you will never be able to cast. etc.

That isn't cheating. TTO and Trias are different kinds of being from the Nameless One. The argument as it relates to NWN2 is about teleportation spells, which aren't abilities exclusively possessed by Jerro, and the way teleportation is used to decide crucial events in the plot while the player for some reason cannot use it (or use the other spells named above to prevent it). Or even attempt to use it. The writing in these scenes doesn't make sense at all, while TTO's shadows certainly do.

 

To be fair, The teleportation that Jerro uses is, again, Blood Fueled. This is demonstrated when Shandra enters his haven.... she suddenly gets the ability to Teleport as well. Edited May 31, 2013 by Stun

[Micamo]

Then you don't put the villain there in Chapter 1 for the player to kill. You especially don't put him there, then make him arbitrarily invincible. At best you put an illusory projection there for the player to interact with.

[Stun]

Then you don't put the villain there in Chapter 1 for the player to kill.

Correct. But In computer game terms, if you don't want to take the "immortal villian" route, you only have 2 other options here.

 

1) You craft a story where the villian remains hidden and completely out of reach until the very end of the entire game.

 

Or:

 

2) you present the villian in chapter 1.... but he/she can only interact with the player via a cutscene (ie. the player is powerless to fight/affect the villian)

 

Do you like either of these two?

 

 

At best you put an illusory projection there for the player to interact with.

And what happens, then, when we get players wishing that they too could perform such awesome high level illusory projections that can talk, threaten and taunt from a mile away? Just saying.... Edited May 31, 2013 by Stun

[Micamo]

Correct. In computer game terms, if you don't want to take the "immortal villian" route, you only have 2 other options.

 

1) You craft a story where the villian remains hidden and completely out of reach until the very end of the story

 

Or

 

2) you present the villian in chapter 1.... but he/she can only interact with the player via a cutscene (ie. the player is powerless to respond on his own)

 

Do you like either of these two?

There's a third option: If the player is clever enough, they can kill the villain early and win. If doing it early requires more intelligence and understanding of the game than doing it the long way, I say let the player have their victory. I think going out of your way to stall or negate the player's legitimate victory so you can extend the conflict hurts more than it helps most of the time. Like, take the Trial By Combat in NWN2 for example. What should have happened is if you win the trial and get declared Not Guilty, Nasher runs Torio out of the city without you having to fight Lorne. If they did that I would have been mostly happy with that sequence instead of fuming with rage over it (still would have been bitter about the whole squire thing, but that problem can't be so easily patched).

 

Also, I kill Ammon at the moonstone mask. Shandra survives, I do the ritual of purification by myself, and maybe West Harbor has time to evacuate. I fail to see the problem with this scenario.

 

And what happens when we get players wishing that they too could perform such awesome high level illusory projections that can talk, threaten and taunt? Just saying....

You let them.

[Stun]

Right. When an RPG boasts 60 hours content, and players report that they managed to beat the game in its first chapter after playing for 3 hours, then that game will be seen as a huge dud. Broken.

 

Seriously, imagine if you and Gorion were able to kill Serevok in BG1's prologue via a couple of lucky rolls of the dice. What kind of Gaming experience would that have been? I'll tell you. None at all. And the devs would have been held accountable for releasing a (literally) BROKEN game.

 

But that's what you're asking for here: a Game you can break early, for your own ego's sake. Story be damned.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Stun

[cleric Nemir]

...

 

that Shandra is really a masterpiece of a character,since it can make someone attack everything and everyone over the loss he/she felt deep. I can understand a temporal butthurt over her,sure,but I certainly didn't like her more than it is considered natural for a living human-fictional character relations. Yes, I had a useless raise dead that did sh*t on her corpse but did wonders to my hatred.. yet not that deep that it made me shout "FU" all over the place(s).

[Micamo]

Right. When an RPG boasts 60 hours content, and players report that they managed to beat the game in its first chapter after playing for 3 hours, then that game will be seen as a huge dud. Broken.

I think hour count is something that we, as a culture, need to seriously get over already.

 

Seriously, imagine if you and Gorion were able to kill Serevok in BG1's prologue via a couple of lucky rolls of the dice. What kind of Gaming experience would that have been?

I've never finished BG1, but from what I played of it that probably would have been better than what we got.

[Stun]

Ok, I'm gonna bow out here after this post because I'm starting to get bored and I've just realized I've wasted half my friday afternoon engaging in a rather mundane debate topic about... virtually nothing.

 

 

Seriously, imagine if you and Gorion were able to kill Serevok in BG1's prologue via a couple of lucky rolls of the dice. What kind of Gaming experience would that have been?

I've never finished BG1, but from what I played of it that probably would have been better than what we got.

 

Nope. Not even Objectively. Since in that encounter, you do not even know who Serevok is. He's simply labeled as "armored figure".

 

So lets recap the (completed) story at that point.

 

1) Welcome to candlekeep, your home. Your dad wants you to go on a trip with him. Hurry up and equip yourself.

2) Meet Imoen, your childhood friend.

3) Fetch a scroll for a mage

4) Kill two guys

5) Meet up with dad, and go for a walk outside

6)Kill an armored figure.

 

The End.

 

(Thank you for playing Baldurs Gate 1!! $50 dollars well spent!)

Edited May 31, 2013 by Stun

[centurionofprix]

There's also a difference between the villain slaying the player, or simply being too powerful to confront, and the villain doing something the player should be able to prevent by playing within the rules of the setting/story.

Edited May 31, 2013 by centurionofprix