Meanwhile in London: Beheading in broad daylight

[Malcador]

Aw DE, you're not advocating the ethnic cleansing of all Muslims from EU and a war to wipe them out ? Man, you suck at this forum Nazi role!

[Drowsy Emperor]

Aw DE, you're not advocating the ethnic cleansing of all Muslims from EU and a war to wipe them out ? Man, you suck at this forum Nazi role!

 

You try fighting a war with the ipod generation, they can't fight their way out of the living room let alone across half the world 

[Malcador]

Easy, just tell them the enemy wants to ban their smartphones.

[Hurlshort]

Obviously no one here has read both the Koran and the New Testament because the tone, the message and the content is so completely different that no one in their right mind would lump the two religions together.

 

Anyone who thinks that there is no difference between the mindset of a believer who venerates a prophet/son of God that said "turn the other cheek", and "thou shalt not kill" and the believer of a prophet who was also at the same time a warlord, who personally participated in the execution of Jews and other tribes and explicitly permits the killing of "unbelievers" - "slay them where you find them" is both deluded and ignorant of history.

And before someone drags out the Old Testament, Christianity is not the old testament and everything that contradicts the new in it is superseded by the message of the new.

 

I've read both, I've taken theology classes on both, and I've engaged in discourse with both imams and priests about both religions.  So I'm pretty comfortable saying you are showing a clear bias towards one group over another.  That is bad history.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Hurlshot

[Walsingham]

I am amused that you are attempting to retrench to a more 'moderate' position by suggesting the solution is separation of incompatible 'races'.

 

Nearly as much by your Daily Mail bleating about how the younger generation is too fat to fight.

 

But not nearly as much as I am by your cherry picking a handful of anecdotal 'evidence' of how repressive 'Muslim' countries are.

 

I have been all over this world apart from Russia and South America and I've seen some ****ed up ****. But not once did I try to explain it by saying "Yeah that **** I saw 6 people doing is definitely the way 2.6 billion other people who have the same hair or holy book, or soup recipes would behave."

[Malcador]

The outrage here is what I find the most amusing.

[Amentep]

The new testament says "Thou shalt not kill" and I was signed up for the Army.

Pretty sure that this phrase is a reference to "bloodguilt" or unlawful killing, of which killing during legitimate battle in warfare is not counted.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Amentep

[BruceVC]

 

 

Obviously no one here has read both the Koran and the New Testament because the tone, the message and the content is so completely different that no one in their right mind would lump the two religions together.

 

Actually I have. Was working at a bookstore and had tons of book to read.

 

You are right that the tone is different.

The Koran is much more direct, commanding and strict in tone.

But the general underlaying basics are the same.

 

It's not a stretch to think the muslims and christians basicly worhip the same God, but under a different name and in different ways.

 

 

 

 

Really what people in the west ignore is that Christianity has been systematically driven out of society by various factors and is no longer the force it once was. Islam wasn't. When I was in Abu Dhabi there were 100+ channels of people reading the Koran 24/7, people prayed regularly 5 times per day, and people of other faiths had to adhere to things like the Ramadan, by going to segregated places in restaurants to eat.

In other countries european women have to go out covered in public.

 

That's all fine - its their god given right. 

 

But if someone tried to enforce similar Christian practices in Europe, theoretically, the outcry would literally blow the heavens. Okay so we're more "progressive" - we don't need that anymore.

 

But where's the parity and mutual respect? Why can't others in muslim countries enjoy the exact same freedoms as everyone else does in europe?

I had some coptic (egyptian christian) friends here in Belgrade and they often told me how difficult life was for them in Egypt on account of religious persecution.

I see it as very one sided.

 

 

We have discussed similar topics to this before and I agree with some of what you are saying. As you know I travel to the Middle East (ME) for work and have personal experience in how certain ME countries operate

 

Firstly what you are saying should be obvious to any person who has studied the political machinery of ME countries. Most ME countries are not Democracies and don't have freedoms like religion, press and womens right. And despite improvements I don't think they ever will. So you are correct that Western countries are more equatable and fair societies

 

So now the question is what does this mean to us Westerners or rather what can we do about it? Well you need to accept that in order to do business in those countries you need to abide by there rules and conservative values. Its not that hard and thats just the way it is.

 

However I firmly believe we have every right to believe that our Western values and ideological views are superior to countries and governments that don't follow Democratic principles. Now as far as immigration is concerned to Western countries people need to learn to assimilate to the country they want to immigrate to. Obviously they would keep there own religion but they should learn the local language and cannot practice archaic customs like forced marriages or discriminate against gay people. If they can't accept that then they should be deported. I don't see this as unreasonable if you want to live in a foreign country?

Edited May 28, 2013 by BruceVC

[Drowsy Emperor]

^Sure.

 

Except instead of holding to those standards you describe the public opinion has been engineered into a machinery for browbeating and marginalizing anyone who disagrees with it regarding this question. 

An example of this is the recent Switzerland minaret scandal, when they wanted to ban further building of minarets on mosques (but not mosques themselves) the outrage was such you could be forgiven for thinking they had actually instated concentration camps.

Why did EU countries attempt to browbeat Switzerland and meddle into its internal issues?

 

@Walsingham: the allusion to apartheid is pure nonsense. This is not the question of a minority establishing control over a majority in their own country.  

No one is being discriminated as those that still haven't been granted EU citizenship and potential immigrants (legal or illegal) are not entitled to any rights in the EU countries until such rights are granted to them (apart from the usual rights granted to persons from a third country). Deportations are regulated by law as well, under conditions that have been approved by governmental bodies.

Other measures such as physical separation and police oppression have neither been suggested nor are necessary/make sense in the context. No one is trying to rule over anyone, on the contrary.

 

Bleating fascist!, fascist! will get you nowhere, but it is a perfect picture of how the political correctness machinery operates.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Obviously no one here has read both the Koran and the New Testament because the tone, the message and the content is so completely different that no one in their right mind would lump the two religions together.

 

Anyone who thinks that there is no difference between the mindset of a believer who venerates a prophet/son of God that said "turn the other cheek", and "thou shalt not kill" and the believer of a prophet who was also at the same time a warlord, who personally participated in the execution of Jews and other tribes and explicitly permits the killing of "unbelievers" - "slay them where you find them" is both deluded and ignorant of history.

And before someone drags out the Old Testament, Christianity is not the old testament and everything that contradicts the new in it is superseded by the message of the new.

 

I've read both, I've taken theology classes on both, and I've engaged in discourse with both imams and priests about both religions.  So I'm pretty comfortable saying you are showing a clear bias towards one group over another.  That is bad history.

 

 

The only history I mention is events from  Mohammad's life and they're generally considered to be a documented historical fact. Everything else is quoted directly from the book itself, which is sitting on a shelf near me.

 

You could argue that I'm drawing bad conclusions from the facts, but not the fact themselves.

[Meshugger]

 

There is a radical militant white supremacist Christian group called The Chalice, they have no central command structure and are global, but mostly spread throughout Europe. Their main focus is the defense of the white race and an end to immigration and multiculturalism. Big Breivik fans. They have committed acts of terror over the last decade all over Europe, including bombings in London. Their terror acts are usually followed by demands to end what they call the "white genocide" going on in Europe.

 

Their network has mostly been driven underground and smashed by authorities, but sometimes local members of white supremacist groups, skinheads or borderline groups like the BNP are inspired by their rhetoric to commit violent acts of terror in the name of the group. Yesterday, two London skinheads who have just watched a particularly moving speech on Youtube by Chalice member John MacAwlaki decide to take action. They wait outside a local London mosque until they see the Imam walking home from prayers. They drive their car up onto the sidewalk and ram into him. The Imam is knocked down and seriously injured and helpless, but still alive. The two skinheads leave the car and stand over him, bystanders assume they are helping him, but what they actually do is stab and hack at the helpless man with butcher knives and a cleaver until they murder him. "The Chalice!" they shout as they stab him, "The Chalice!" Then they hack at his neck a few times and manage to partially decapitate him, after that they drag his body into the center of the street and stand in front of it, proudly asking bystanders to take their pictures. One of them even runs up to a stopped bus and asks everyone inside to please take his picture with the body of the Imam. 

 

The other skinhead sees a local news crew approaching and runs over to give an impromptu interview. He proceeds to tell them that non-whites in the UK are all targets "You people will never be safe." He says. "We swear we will never stop fighting you as long as you attempt to occupy white lands. I apologise that women have had to witness this today, but it was a necessary act to fight back against the genocide going on against whites all over Europe." Then they stand around and wait for 20 minutes until police with actual guns show up, and the police shoot them. 

 

Are you telling me that if this had happened yesterday you would be on here saying "It was just a ****ing stabbing in East London! They happen all the time!"

 

Because I don't think that's how you would react.

 

 

Snatched from another forum. I thought that the perspective was interesting.

[NOK222]

 

Obviously no one here has read both the Koran and the New Testament because the tone, the message and the content is so completely different that no one in their right mind would lump the two religions together.

 

Anyone who thinks that there is no difference between the mindset of a believer who venerates a prophet/son of God that said "turn the other cheek", and "thou shalt not kill" and the believer of a prophet who was also at the same time a warlord, who personally participated in the execution of Jews and other tribes and explicitly permits the killing of "unbelievers" - "slay them where you find them" is both deluded and ignorant of history.

And before someone drags out the Old Testament, Christianity is not the old testament and everything that contradicts the new in it is superseded by the message of the new.

 

I've read both, I've taken theology classes on both, and I've engaged in discourse with both imams and priests about both religions.  So I'm pretty comfortable saying you are showing a clear bias towards one group over another.  That is bad history.

 

I'm an Atheist and I think DE makes a good point. That being said, Muslims need their own reformation. 

[BruceVC]

 

 

There is a radical militant white supremacist Christian group called The Chalice, they have no central command structure and are global, but mostly spread throughout Europe. Their main focus is the defense of the white race and an end to immigration and multiculturalism. Big Breivik fans. They have committed acts of terror over the last decade all over Europe, including bombings in London. Their terror acts are usually followed by demands to end what they call the "white genocide" going on in Europe.

 

Their network has mostly been driven underground and smashed by authorities, but sometimes local members of white supremacist groups, skinheads or borderline groups like the BNP are inspired by their rhetoric to commit violent acts of terror in the name of the group. Yesterday, two London skinheads who have just watched a particularly moving speech on Youtube by Chalice member John MacAwlaki decide to take action. They wait outside a local London mosque until they see the Imam walking home from prayers. They drive their car up onto the sidewalk and ram into him. The Imam is knocked down and seriously injured and helpless, but still alive. The two skinheads leave the car and stand over him, bystanders assume they are helping him, but what they actually do is stab and hack at the helpless man with butcher knives and a cleaver until they murder him. "The Chalice!" they shout as they stab him, "The Chalice!" Then they hack at his neck a few times and manage to partially decapitate him, after that they drag his body into the center of the street and stand in front of it, proudly asking bystanders to take their pictures. One of them even runs up to a stopped bus and asks everyone inside to please take his picture with the body of the Imam. 

 

The other skinhead sees a local news crew approaching and runs over to give an impromptu interview. He proceeds to tell them that non-whites in the UK are all targets "You people will never be safe." He says. "We swear we will never stop fighting you as long as you attempt to occupy white lands. I apologise that women have had to witness this today, but it was a necessary act to fight back against the genocide going on against whites all over Europe." Then they stand around and wait for 20 minutes until police with actual guns show up, and the police shoot them. 

 

Are you telling me that if this had happened yesterday you would be on here saying "It was just a ****ing stabbing in East London! They happen all the time!"

 

Because I don't think that's how you would react.

 

 

Snatched from another forum. I thought that the perspective was interesting.

 

 

 

This can't be a real movement,  I have never heard of them before?

[Meshugger]

It's an analogy to if the tables were turned (Political Islam being peaceful compared to Political Christianity).

[BruceVC]

It's an analogy to if the tables were turned (Political Islam being peaceful compared to Political Christianity).

 

Okay. I see now, it makes a good point

[Walsingham]

I think Drowsy Emperor's attitude to historical rewrites can be highlighted perfectly by him calling me politically correct.

 

Although his complet misunderstanding of the way apartheid was sold to people as a solution to racial strife is a close second.

[alanschu]

 

 

I've read both, I've taken theology classes on both, and I've engaged in discourse with both imams and priests about both religions.  So I'm pretty comfortable saying you are showing a clear bias towards one group over another.  That is bad history.

 

I enjoy the "don't count the really bad parts of this one, because we made another piece of literature.  Pay attention to that one!  Nothing to see here, nothing to see here..."

[Malcador]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10083009/War-memorial-vandalised-in-wake-of-terror-murder.html

 

Clever

[Drowsy Emperor]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10083009/War-memorial-vandalised-in-wake-of-terror-murder.html

 

Clever

 

The media are partly to blame, they've been covering the story too aggressively. If you don't want to provoke a reaction don't post it all over the news all day long.

 

No comment on the RAF thing. Its so stupid I don't know what to make of it.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Drowsy Emperor

[Malcador]

You'd think the EDL types would have at least done it a bit more convincingly too.

[Labadal]

Speaking as the only British person so far... shut the **** up. Everyone.

 

I find it nearly as disasteful that you swivel eyed bastards are pushing your anti-muslim agenda as that someone I may have known has had their ****ing head cut off. I know Woolwich quite well through the TA. From what I understand that might easily have been me with my head cut off. And I wouldn't have blamed muslims I'd have blamed swivel eyed bastards with an anti-christian agenda.

 

Seriously. I've just gone off a lot of you completely. This isn't a points scoring exercise.

 

I haven't read the thread, but I felt that I had to respond to this. I have nothing against Muslims in general. I have Muslim friends, I work with Muslim kids and I like them. But, I will always have a problem with Muslims like these. I come from a village that was almost wiped out by Muslims on several occasions. I guess you have read about what the Turks did with the Armenians and Assyrians?

 

We migrated to Sweden because we simply couldn't live in our country simply for not being Muslims. Both countries we lived in had the same problem. When I see stuff like this, it reminds me of my family's past. We came to Sweden with barely nothing. My parents had to work their asses of to make it over here. I can tell you from personal experience that what you saw there is a regular thing in the Middle East. My friends' cousin was beheaded because he's not a Muslim. His head was delivered to his parents house. Tell me that isn't ****ed up. We got away from that **** and now it is following us to Europe. I don't mind living with Muslims, what scares me are the fundamentalists that want US to change. When I condemn these people and the way I do it, I think I have some God damn valid ground to do so.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Speaking as the only British person so far... shut the **** up. Everyone.

 

I find it nearly as disasteful that you swivel eyed bastards are pushing your anti-muslim agenda as that someone I may have known has had their ****ing head cut off. I know Woolwich quite well through the TA. From what I understand that might easily have been me with my head cut off. And I wouldn't have blamed muslims I'd have blamed swivel eyed bastards with an anti-christian agenda.

 

Seriously. I've just gone off a lot of you completely. This isn't a points scoring exercise.

 

I haven't read the thread, but I felt that I had to respond to this. I have nothing against Muslims in general. I have Muslim friends, I work with Muslim kids and I like them. But, I will always have a problem with Muslims like these. I come from a village that was almost wiped out by Muslims on several occasions. I guess you have read about what the Turks did with the Armenians and Assyrians?

 

We migrated to Sweden because we simply couldn't live in our country simply for not being Muslims. Both countries we lived in had the same problem. When I see stuff like this, it reminds me of my family's past. We came to Sweden with barely nothing. My parents had to work their asses of to make it over here. I can tell you from personal experience that what you saw there is a regular thing in the Middle East. My friends' cousin was beheaded because he's not a Muslim. His head was delivered to his parents house. Tell me that isn't ****ed up. We got away from that **** and now it is following us to Europe. I don't mind living with Muslims, what scares me are the fundamentalists that want US to change. When I condemn these people and the way I do it, I think I have some God damn valid ground to do so.

 

 

Yeah I always say that Serbia got the short end of the stick but what the Turks did to the Armenians at the beginning of the twentieth century and during WW1 is unspeakable holocaust level mass extermination: mass burnings, drownings, poisonings, deliberate typhoid infection, deportations, death marches, extermination camps - there was no crime that wasn't committed. 

 

And its rarely spoken of because Turkey is an important NATO member and has strong lobbying groups systematically quashing the issue at every turn.

[BruceVC]

 

Speaking as the only British person so far... shut the **** up. Everyone.

 

I find it nearly as disasteful that you swivel eyed bastards are pushing your anti-muslim agenda as that someone I may have known has had their ****ing head cut off. I know Woolwich quite well through the TA. From what I understand that might easily have been me with my head cut off. And I wouldn't have blamed muslims I'd have blamed swivel eyed bastards with an anti-christian agenda.

 

Seriously. I've just gone off a lot of you completely. This isn't a points scoring exercise.

 

I haven't read the thread, but I felt that I had to respond to this. I have nothing against Muslims in general. I have Muslim friends, I work with Muslim kids and I like them. But, I will always have a problem with Muslims like these. I come from a village that was almost wiped out by Muslims on several occasions. I guess you have read about what the Turks did with the Armenians and Assyrians?

 

We migrated to Sweden because we simply couldn't live in our country simply for not being Muslims. Both countries we lived in had the same problem. When I see stuff like this, it reminds me of my family's past. We came to Sweden with barely nothing. My parents had to work their asses of to make it over here. I can tell you from personal experience that what you saw there is a regular thing in the Middle East. My friends' cousin was beheaded because he's not a Muslim. His head was delivered to his parents house. Tell me that isn't ****ed up. We got away from that **** and now it is following us to Europe. I don't mind living with Muslims, what scares me are the fundamentalists that want US to change. When I condemn these people and the way I do it, I think I have some God damn valid ground to do so.

 

 

I have 2 Turkish friends and we often discuss politics, its bizarre but dispute the  fact they are very well informed they both refuse to accept what the Turks did to the Armenians during WW1. They almost deny it happened or claim the massacre was exaggerated. What I do get them to accept is that if Turkey admits compliance in the genocide then Turkey would be expected to pay reparations. So maybe thats why Turks generally deny the Armenian genocide?

[Drowsy Emperor]

The stigma associated with genocide goes far beyond reparations. Fifty years after WWII and Germany still can't wash out the blame for Nazism. The Turks will fight tooth and nail not to accept responsibility for it, its practically been the state policy of every government Turkey's had.

Turkey, like Croatia in WWII, got off easily because the focus was elsewhere in both post-war situations.

[Labadal]

It would also be a problem for them with their EU membership.

 

I'd just like to say that I have nothing against Turks in general. I thought it might be best to say that so no one gets the wrong impressions.