Food and resting.

[Melhelix]

Personally, I like food and drink in games, I think both Eschalon Book II and Oregon Trail II did a nice job of it. Eschalon as a rather standard "you must manually eat and drink as an individual" and Oregon Trail for an interesting "you must supply food for a group and here's an optional fun way of procuring it (hunting, random events, fishing, etc) but the consumption is automatic."

 

I could definitely see needing to consume food and drink implemented in a similar fashion to the different sub-categories of the Modes, something a player can toggle on or off depending on personal preference.

 

 

The first question you may have is, "Can I enable multiple challenge modes at once?" Yep, you sure can. <...> If you're not quite sure you want all of the elements that come along with a given mode, this funding level will also cover implementing the ability to enable and disable the individual sub-features.

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/316398

Edited May 22, 2013 by Melhelix

[JFSOCC]

Proposal.

 

Rations, can be gathered from many sources: Bought at markets, at inns, or stores. Given by goodwives, hunted down, gathered from the flora etcetera. If present in inventory will be consumed automatically at midday or whenever camp is set up (if implemented.) Rangers and Druids gain an automatic ration at mealtimes, except in the most lifeless or blighted lands.

 

Variance of quality, offering different benefits: Examples.

Ships biscuit and a tot of brackish water. You can live on it, but you recieve a slight penalty to stamina for the next 24 hour period. Keeps virtually forever.

Salted meat, dried fruit and small beer. Hearty tasteless vittles, they keep you strong and in fighting trim. If Stored properly will stay fresh for the duration of your journey.

Meat and potato pasty, followed by a slice of warm blackberry pie and washed down with a flask of cider. Tasty, stodgy grub that will keep you working hard, for the next 24 hours you recieve a slight bonus to stamina. Keeps for maybe a day.

Spoiled Food. It keeps you alive, but you sicken and recieve a mediocre penalty to stamina, possibility of a disease ravaging the character.

Poisoned Food. Some scoundrel has poisoned your rations, set up camp as soon as possible to try and treat the affliction through purging, healing and rest, or stagger onwards in the hope of finding aid.

Orlan Oatcake. To an Orlan this is a hearty filling meal, to every other race it is a mild stimulant that can grow addictive with repeated consumption. Tastes absolutely foul to all other races, but grants a mediocre bonus to stamina. Keeps for about a week if wrapped up and stored well.

What if different foods all gave different and very slight passive bonuses which last for a day.

Trail rations give no bonuses

varying food give either random or specific passive bonuses protein shake +1% critical chance, spicy food could give +1% cold protection, +3%experience gain etc etc. slight enough not to really matter, but big enough to not be completely worthless.

 

this would tie in nicely with resting mechanics, resting resets the passive bonuses to zero, so it might be worthwhile to continue onwards to not lose a +4%cold resistance in a wintery dungeon. But that would only work if food is suitably expensive and rare.

 

I mean, I don't care about food much (in games, at least) but if it were to be implemented this would be the way I'd think about it.

Edited May 22, 2013 by JFSOCC

[Aldereth]

Lephys, not trying to shut down any discussion of food system here. Just trying to point out direction that has been taken before and their general reception. They fall within two catagory: Resource management (old school rpg, AD&D , ultima) or food providing minor buffs, basically a low level alchemy like Skyrimm. Resource management is preceived widely as busy work and most CRPG dropped it in the 1990s up till today. The weaker version of alchemy make alchemy more preferable. It make the system feel a little bit tagged on

 

I actually like Prime Junta 's idea the most in that using spells or feat generate hunger. The system reasonably similate the real world necessity of eating. It would be appropriate for a wasteland/fallout style game or a vampire game but may become intrusive in a FRPG. One way to address this is to have recruitable NPC to have the skills to bypass/simplify this system for those gamers who does not want to be bother with it but if the player get involve with the system could get further benefit in the form of buffs or open up conversation with certain NPCs who has a taste for finer things in life. Still this is hard to balance in terms of budget resource, possible distraction from plot, and perceived benefit in immersion. At the end , only the dev knows what kind of resource is on hand and what kind of story they wish to tell and make the decision if it is worth it.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Aldereth

[Lephys]

I didn't mean to say your intentions were to shut down discussion. I was just trying to point out that voicing a bunch of purely speculative doubt, though we all are human and feel the need to do it sometimes, doesn't really contribute to the discussion at all. That was more directed at anyone who feels the need to jump in to tell everyone how much they think a food system will suck without even addressing a specific implementation of food system.

 

I acknowledge that you're actually providing constructive feedback as to what to maybe not do (and even what maybe TO do), so I'm definitely not trying to say that you, personally, are failing to be constructive here.

 

I think the important thing, though, to take from the "Look at how it's been so troublesome in the past" is a set of clues on how to not make it troublesome. I agree that something as simple as in-depth hunger-o-meters do not need to be constantly micromanaged throughout the game. Manual eating is one of those silly things, since nomming some trail rations can be done whilst traveling, so it would be preposterous for the character to say "I'm super starving, and time's moving at about 1-hour per second for the player during this world-map fast travel, but I'd better just wait 'til he issues a manual 'eat some food' command, at the cost of my own starvation and death."

 

But, I think we can have our cake and not have to decide precisely when to eat it, too.

[cleric Nemir]

Anything beyond simple implementation of a food bag that restocks at inn and depletes at resting outdoor means much work. Risking to sound like Bethesda lover (which I am not),they can revert to mods later..

As of start,a bag occupying one slot,with just a "foods and drink for the journey" description that is completely handled automatically. You talk to the innkeeper and get a dialog "I would like to buy food and drink for the journey",pay the price and set sail.

You rest at a forest camp in the middle of nowhere - bag depletes in scale with the number of party members and you are healed & restored in a more convincing manner.  

Limit the bag with ,say,6 uses per full party rest and that's that. At 7th rest HP restored is small,at 8th none. At 9th,you risk a disease or such,and so on. Ranger and druid like classes can use survival skill on the bag to refill it,here's chance to

make further use,even a need of such class in the party. 

 

Anyhow,I will just add that being english is not my native,I tend to simplify my words rather than embarrassing myself with poor attempts of eloquence,and luckily I found a simple,direct words are more rewarding when things are discussed. Keeps the thread from looking like an eastern scroll of "mine is bigger than yours".

 

Think of it as using my WIS modifier rather than INT in real life. Do I have or lack any is arguable enough,but fun to see,I imagine.

[TrashMan]

I'd like provisions to matter. More than just food.

 

Food is for eating. Medical supplies are for injuries. Basic campsite items are for resting.

 

Everything gets consumed based on circumstances. The worse your injuries, the more medical supplies you consume. If you are injured and bled a lot, you need to replenish your strength so you would eat more.

Basic campsite items last almsot indefinately.

 

 

I kinda like that in old PnP you really could carry tons of items. Chalk. Coal. Oil. Pots and pans. Flint. Sleeping bags. Bags in general (ALWAYS carry bags). Rope. Those stuff had it's use.

 

When players make ap arty and use up all the starting gold on weapon and armor, go out in the wilderness exploring and start setting a camp, only to realize they didn't bring almost none of the necessities.

[cleric Nemir]

I'd like provisions to matter. More than just food.

 

Food is for eating. Medical supplies are for injuries. Basic campsite items are for resting.

 

Everything gets consumed based on circumstances. The worse your injuries, the more medical supplies you consume. If you are injured and bled a lot, you need to replenish your strength so you would eat more.

Basic campsite items last almsot indefinately.

 

 

I kinda like that in old PnP you really could carry tons of items. Chalk. Coal. Oil. Pots and pans. Flint. Sleeping bags. Bags in general (ALWAYS carry bags). Rope. Those stuff had it's use.

 

When players make ap arty and use up all the starting gold on weapon and armor, go out in the wilderness exploring and start setting a camp, only to realize they didn't bring almost none of the necessities.

No doubt it would prove amazing to make it so detailed,I would first welcome this,but the fear of overburdening the developers with all that still stands.

[Sheikh]

The way i would like to see it is you must pay attention to food and resting in general and always account for them or face pretty dire consequences, however there should be very little micromanagement involved in it. There should be maybe 1 food item in the game called rations that you take with you and it should weigh little and take only moderate space.

[Aldereth]

... I agree that something as simple as in-depth hunger-o-meters do not need to be constantly micromanaged throughout the game. Manual eating is one of those silly things, since nomming some trail rations can be done whilst traveling, ...

 

You know, it may probably be less intrusive if the "huger-o-meter" is streamline into the Stamina drain or a its recovery rate.     By that I mean starving could cause stamina loss or just slow down its recovery rate.  As I understand it,  P:E use a kind of system with health and stamina where health regenerate much slower and stamina is regenerates quicker.    Health would probably be closer to the reality of food but it could get annoyingly intrusive.   

 

Anything beyond simple implementation of a food bag that restocks at inn and depletes at resting outdoor means much work....

I think this is an even better idea than having an NPC to handle the cooking stuff.  Have this as a default but for those who want to dive into food, cooking, etc...   Have a crafting system that would make items that would increase stamina regeneration, or open up opportunity to get to know other NPCs (that like having good food) during camp, heck or even offer alternate non-violent choice to solve problem (by hosting a conference between warring party... wait... peace through throwing a party....eew... probably bad idea)

[Lephys]

Maybe you can only rest down in a cave somewhere if you've got sufficient provisions. That's your limit. They'd be easy to get when you're in-town (there could be a little default provisions "grocery" list that you can tweak if you so choose, as you go through the game and come upon different types of food and medical supplies, etc). Basically, I don't think the focus of the system should be micromanagement, as many have said. But, you'd be limited by how much you can carry and how long it lasts before spoiling (even if this is abstracted a little, since I realize food won't just be fine for 5 days, then instantly spoil). And, of course, there could be various extra benefits and perks to picking and choosing specific provisions and supplies over others, weighed against cost and capacity, etc. But they wouldn't be anything that would just hinder your ability to get through the game if you chose to pay only basic attention to your supply stock every time you went to town.

 

So, you run out of provisions... well, maybe now you can't "rest," because, without food/water, you're not going to decide to lie around for 8 hours while your wounds heal up and you slowly starve. You're going to keep moving to get to a water and/or food supply, THEN you might rest. So, if you're way down in the middle of some cave or dungeon, you can't just rest unless you find some more provisions for your party. BUT, this doesn't mean you couldn't ever rest without proper provisions in-stock. Survival-y characters (like Rangers, or anyone with enough Wilderness-type skill, really) could hunt/gather and allow you to rest, but maybe it's not as effective. Maybe you only regain 50% of everything you normally would, since you don't have proper meals and hydration and/or medical supplies (Wilderness skill stuff could find herbs and such for poultices, but they wouldn't be as effective as they wouldn't have time to be processed into proper medical provisions).

 

AND/OR, it takes longer to recover. So, you could still rest with just berries and water and a few herbs on your wounds, but you might have to rest for 14 hours instead of 6 or 8 to recover fully. OR even only to recover partially. Maybe medical supplies determine how long it takes to recover (to whatever extent), and food/drink provisions determine the extent to which you can recover? If you've got awesome bandages and salves, but piddly amounts of foraged food, your body's probably not going to repair itself as effectively whilst you rest.

 

*shrug*. Just some thoughts. I don't think we need to force the player to manually eat the food, and/or apply salves, etc, though. Just choose what to buy or not (in town), and maybe what to use when and what not to use when (if you want to preserve your provisions for a longer trip, etc.).

[TrashMan]

 

I'd like provisions to matter. More than just food.

 

Food is for eating. Medical supplies are for injuries. Basic campsite items are for resting.

 

Everything gets consumed based on circumstances. The worse your injuries, the more medical supplies you consume. If you are injured and bled a lot, you need to replenish your strength so you would eat more.

Basic campsite items last almsot indefinately.

 

 

I kinda like that in old PnP you really could carry tons of items. Chalk. Coal. Oil. Pots and pans. Flint. Sleeping bags. Bags in general (ALWAYS carry bags). Rope. Those stuff had it's use.

 

When players make ap arty and use up all the starting gold on weapon and armor, go out in the wilderness exploring and start setting a camp, only to realize they didn't bring almost none of the necessities.

No doubt it would prove amazing to make it so detailed,I would first welcome this,but the fear of overburdening the developers with all that still stands.

 

 

That danger is always there. But there are far older games that did it.

 

 

I do love those extras tough.

It does lead to some "fun" PnP situations.

 

Player: "Ok, we make camp and eat."

DM: "You have rations?"

Player: "yeah, we have some potatoes with us, so we'll just cook them."

DM: "You did bring some pots and pans, right?"

Player: "Ummm... no. Can we cook it in a steel helm?"

DM: "Only if you take out the padding and ruin the helm in the process. You got flint?"

Player: "Frak. We eat them raw then."

DM: "You eat the potatos and feel satiated. However, your stomach hurts...because raw potatos."

Player: "We sleep it off."

DM: "Sleeping bags?"

Player: "Dammit, doesn't anyone have a sleeping bag? Tom? Tom has one."

DM: "Tom gets a semi-restfull night of sleep. The rest of you can barely sleep at all betwen being uncomfortable, being bitten by bugs and stomach ache."

Player: ".... at least it cna't get any worse."

DM: "You didn't post guards...it can. I roll the encounter table.... ouch. Ogres attack you. You are caught flat-footed and you get an aditional penalty because you are unrested and basicly poisoned."

Player:

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

[Jwrac]

Perhaps the food mechanic could be a preference before starting a new game, specific to different game modes.
On that note, I remember the food mechanic from Might and Magic 6: Mandate of Heaven; the food was simply a number for "per person, per day" and was only consumed when "resting and healing", you could restock all your food at a tavern/inn/etc just by paying some gold.

The only time that ever felt like a chore was when you wanted to keep exploring a dungeon but your party was too beaten up to try.
Perhaps this could be prevented or remedied by adding the ability to procure food/rations with appropriate abilities for characters.

Maybe even an option to consume /more/ amounts of food before entering a dungeon, for some slight STR/CON bonuses that last longer than potions or effects, but are no where near as potent.

[Kubilayhan]

Drinking a bowl of hot chicken soup would be great during a quest in a snowy and cold forest. Fighting against the hypothermia is tough.

[DCParry]

 

 

I'd like provisions to matter. More than just food.

 

Food is for eating. Medical supplies are for injuries. Basic campsite items are for resting.

 

Everything gets consumed based on circumstances. The worse your injuries, the more medical supplies you consume. If you are injured and bled a lot, you need to replenish your strength so you would eat more.

Basic campsite items last almsot indefinately.

 

 

I kinda like that in old PnP you really could carry tons of items. Chalk. Coal. Oil. Pots and pans. Flint. Sleeping bags. Bags in general (ALWAYS carry bags). Rope. Those stuff had it's use.

 

When players make ap arty and use up all the starting gold on weapon and armor, go out in the wilderness exploring and start setting a camp, only to realize they didn't bring almost none of the necessities.

No doubt it would prove amazing to make it so detailed,I would first welcome this,but the fear of overburdening the developers with all that still stands.

 

 

That danger is always there. But there are far older games that did it.

 

 

I do love those extras tough.

It does lead to some "fun" PnP situations.

 

Player: "Ok, we make camp and eat."

DM: "You have rations?"

Player: "yeah, we have some potatoes with us, so we'll just cook them."

DM: "You did bring some pots and pans, right?"

Player: "Ummm... no. Can we cook it in a steel helm?"

DM: "Only if you take out the padding and ruin the helm in the process. You got flint?"

Player: "Frak. We eat them raw then."

DM: "You eat the potatos and feel satiated. However, your stomach hurts...because raw potatos."

Player: "We sleep it off."

DM: "Sleeping bags?"

Player: "Dammit, doesn't anyone have a sleeping bag? Tom? Tom has one."

DM: "Tom gets a semi-restfull night of sleep. The rest of you can barely sleep at all betwen being uncomfortable, being bitten by bugs and stomach ache."

Player: ".... at least it cna't get any worse."

DM: "You didn't post guards...it can. I roll the encounter table.... ouch. Ogres attack you. You are caught flat-footed and you get an aditional penalty because you are unrested and basicly poisoned."

Player:

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

 

And then no one shows up next week.

 

 

 

Fun stuff.

[TrashMan]

Pansies got punished for their stupidity.

The dice have spoken.