Crafting

[Hormalakh]

this game is combat-oriented. keep that in mind when discussing crafting. the reason we don't have crafting as a parallel problem-solving "tool" is because combat is heavily focused in this game.

 

i would like some crafting specifc quests in this game or crafting specific solutions...

[Spiritofpower]

What if the crafting mechanic was balanced such that it gives you more utility in your items, not power? Like, it doesn't really make sense that you can craft a sword that is more powerful than the ancient sword Excalibur, crafted by the gods themselves and sent down to the mortal planes to smite evil, does it? But then crafting seems a bit useless, doesn't it, seeing as you can get Excalibur, which is just better? But then what if you can craft a sword which can shoot other swords, like this:

 

(And yes, I am aware that this would be a terrible, terrible weapon if we're being realistic, but that isn't my point here)

 

 

Or anything, really. My point is that we should perhaps be able to craft items which, while not as powerful as the weapons we can get otherwise, can do more interesting, different things, in order to keep crafting relevant through the end-game without going the route of Skyrim, where a half-decent smith and/or enchanter can make weaponry more potent than divine artifacts, rendering said artifacts little more than curiosities, not to be used by any sane adventurer.

[Lephys]

Here are my thoughts on crafting(I know I'm "new" to the forums but I've been playing RPGS for over 20 years now and have been lurking here for a while).

 

Standard MMORPG: Collect resources, click button, make item: BORING.

 

Advanced mmorpg: Collect resources, click button, maybe RNG hates you and you fail to make item: Boring as hell.

 

Unfortunately in my opinion making crafting more "involved" almost makes it more boring, let me go into detail based on the "hardcore" crafting I've done in previous MMORPGS/games.

First of all, welcome to the forums, ^_^.

 

Now, with all due respect, it seems as though you've cited 2 different examples of crafting systems, both of which use the bare minimum of involvedness in their actual crafting process (acquire mats and maybe recipes, click a button, maybe make a given item). But, then, you go on to conclude that making crafting any more involved would only hurt it. Now, I know you said that's just in your opinion, but in the interest of answering the question "How could we objectively make crafting better, in general?", your opinion matters in determining this, as you are a player of these games.

 

I'd also like to say that the fact that you point out various different other systems, pointing out how they tried to "change" things, plus the fact that they basically all still use the same rudimentary "Gather/click, click/done" process seems to support the idea that we need to improve the actual crafting process in a game to have any hope of improving crafting.

 

I realize that EQ2 attempted to make crafting more interesting, but most of the difference in its system were cosmetic and/or just-plain poorly implemented things. Just because EQ2 failed doesn't mean that sheerly striving for more engaging crafting was the cause of the failure.

 

Allow me to make an example, though, of what all these differences in the crafting systems of various games (while still using the same core process) are equivalent to:

 

Imagine combat was rock-paper-scissors, on an enemy-by-enemy basis. So, your character, Blarg, runs up to a goblin in combat, and now they rock-paper-scissors it out with their stats and stuff, and after a brief 3-second loading bar for the rock-paper-scissoring, one of them dies and one lives. That would be pretty lame, right? Yeah. You want combat to consist of more than that. Okay, well, now imagine that that was real-time combat, and you want to make it more interesting, so you make it TURN-BASED, but you keep the rock-paper-scissors approach. So, now, it's even more in-depth, with tactical movement limitations and second-by-second strategy adaptations, only there's still pretty much no strategy involved in such a simplistic combat process. So, now combat's still lame, AND it takes even longer and requires more effort to achieve the same lameness.

 

That's what games do with crafting. "Ooooh, what if we put in like 7,000 more ingredients than other games?!". Now the boring gather-and-click process of crafting is a chore, because the problem wasn't "there aren't enough ingredients in the system." "Hey, let's put in things that will gather the stuff FOR you, like SWG! 8D." No offense to SWG, but that's simply an admission that you couldn't even integrate the gathering process into the game well enough to make it not literally a chore. That's like saying "Okay, we're gonna make this terrible, and no one will want to do it, but then we'll introduce a means by which we counter-act our own terrible design, thereby making the terrible design less annoying, but not as good as if we had simply designed it better in the first place."

 

It's like lighting something on fire, then providing a fire extinguisher, and saying "Hey, at least you can put most of that fire out, 8D!"

 

And don't get me wrong... I know why they do it. A lot of people enjoy just the sheer logistics behind crafting (what ingredients combine into what items, etc.), so it's one of those things, especially in MMOs, that they need to put in. But, then, there's that whole "publishers are afraid of change because it's a risk" thing, so they try to both change the system AND simultaneously keep it the same.

 

But, yeah, I'm with the OP in thinking there's a way to make the crafting system, itself, more fun and interesting. I don't want it to steal the spotlight from combat in games like P:E, but that doesn't mean "Oh well, let's just leave it out completely, or keep it at the same level of mundanity."

[Stun]

Just don't do the Temple of Elemental Evil thing, where crafting is utterly mandatory, the items unsurpassable and the whole process requiring two dedicated party members as crafters.

Hmm... And here I was just about to suggest a system like TOEEs, since it's the absolute best of both worlds. All it requires is money and actual character skill/EXP. None of this "go out and find the recipe, then gather 13 troll eyes and mix them with the 11 goblin intestines you've been cluttering your inventory with for 30 hours, then find a crafting table" crap

 

Also, did we play a different Temple of Elemental evil? Crafting wasn't the least bit mandatory in that game. Not for balance, or uniqueness or survival. In fact, I think I had beaten the game, like, 5 times before I ever even tried to craft an item. Part of the reason was because TOEE's Balance was broken right out of the box. You only needed 3 things to utterly plow through every single encounter: 1) Fragarach (which, btw, was far more powerful than anything you could ever craft), 2) A wand of Fireballs, 3) A Wand of Stoneskin. And you get all 3 (and multiple copies of the last two) throughout the course of the game.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Stun

[Kjaamor]

Hmm... And here I was just about to suggest a system like TOEEs, since it's the absolute best of both worlds. All it requires is money and skill/EXP. None of this "go out and find the recipe, then gather 13 troll eyes and mix them with the 5 goblin intestines you've been cluttering your inventory with for 30 hours, then find a crafting table" crap

Also, did we play a different Temple of Elemental evil? Crafting wasn't the least bit mandatory in that game. Not for balance, or uniqueness or survival. In fact, I think I had beaten the game, like, 5 times before I ever even tried to craft an item. Part of the reason was because TOEE's Balance was broken right out of the box. You only needed 3 things to utterly plow through every single encounter: 1) Fragarach, 2) A wand of Fireballs, 3) A Wand of Stoneskin, and you get all 3 (and multiple copies of the last 2) throughout the course of the game.

 

 

Well, on my games of Temple, if you dedicated a cleric and a sorceror to bad spells but were crafting focused, the items that could be made were more useful than the characters who made them. Perhaps mandatory is an exaggeration, but they were grossly overpowered. Gauntlets of +2 strength, for example, is fair. Gauntlets of +4 strength is excessive. Temple let you make Gauntlets +6. Just about all the best items in the game were crafted by the party without any great effort, and it only served to make Temple more of a chore after that point.

 

As for 'Did we play a different ToEE?' I contend that it's possible, since my most recent playthrough was from GOG, and may have had some patches that weren't there on the boxed version. Although if it's any consolation, the combat was quite as broken in my version as it was in yours.

[Osvir]

Skimmed, failed to notice this being brought up but...

I've brought this up before, me thinks, but... Crafting usually involves having a ton of components, put them together and you create an item. What is the first component to be considered? In my opinion, it is the Crafter him- or herself. Who is crafting the item? In this case it'd be two:

The Smith/Alchemist/Enchanter etc. etc. a Merchant-type Crafting:
- Find tons of items
- Give them to Merchant-type
- Item crafted
(- Could be put on orders "I'd like you to build this for me. Takes X days")

 

The Class, the Party itself:
- A Fighter can maintain armor and weapons, good with repairs
- A Barbarian can sniff herbs and good with a hammer
- A Paladin can enchant and distribute orders
- A Druid can mend natural components, extract certain poisons and oils from plants
- A Wizard can mend magical components, extract the essence of the soul of fire and insert into another component
etc. etc.

Then, combining the Classes together, a Fighter & Wizard could create temporary or permanent Crafts together. Not having a Fighter in your party but a Ranger instead could give the Player a different type of "Craft". I find this interesting because it makes crafting party-based. "What kind of party do you have and what can your party do?". This also tickles my replayability-genes, because it'd mean that one game I might craft certain items that will aid my playthrough, and another game where I'll craft entirely different items.

Footnote: Could a "Class" in itself be a component?

[Boa]

But, yeah, I'm with the OP in thinking there's a way to make the crafting system, itself, more fun and interesting. I don't want it to steal the spotlight from combat in games like P:E, but that doesn't mean "Oh well, let's just leave it out completely, or keep it at the same level of mundanity."

 

 

Here's the thing though, I mentioned each of those games because each time the developers "tried" to make crafting more fun and interesting, and in my opinion each time they failed miserably.

 

At the end of the day crafting is pretty basic, you make an item, you use or sell said item. Adding layers or "challenges" quickly goes from being novel to increasing the amount of tedium involved.

 

I guess my issue with crafting (and I say this as someone that's always loved the idea of crafting) is that the amount of time and money it takes to make crafting even remotely relevant takes away from time/money that can be devoted to fleshing out the rest of the game.

 

To make crafting interesting you have to have a system that isn't repetitive, that doesn't use RNG to club seals to spite you(I really really hate RNG based crafting), and it has to produce items you can't get easily.

 

The problem is many "innovative" or "fun" layers added to crafting aren't innovative or fun, they just add to the tedius nature of crafting.

Again,I already have a full time job and I doubt many others would disagree in that we play games to get away from work, not to add more work just for the sake of working.

 

If the developers could add crafting that wasn't tedius and boring I would buy them a unicorn, because out of every mmorpg or RPG I've played(and I've played almost all of them, I only abbreviated the ones that stuck out in my memory) every single one no matter how novel turns into a grindfest when it comes to crafting.

[Tuckey]

The only time I've enjoyed crafting has been in bg2 period. I don't play these games to be a blacksmith; let the blacksmith do the smithing and I'll do the smiting.

[Iyanga]

I guess my issue with crafting (and I say this as someone that's always loved the idea of crafting) is that the amount of time and money it takes to make crafting even remotely relevant takes away from time/money that can be devoted to fleshing out the rest of the game.

 

 

 

There was a 100k crafting goal. You are basically saying:"Hey, take the money dedicated to crafting and put it somewhere else."

That's not really fair.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Iyanga

[Iyanga]

Then, combining the Classes together, a Fighter & Wizard could create temporary or permanent Crafts together. Not having a Fighter in your party but a Ranger instead could give the Player a different type of "Craft". I find this interesting because it makes crafting party-based. "What kind of party do you have and what can your party do?". This also tickles my replayability-genes, because it'd mean that one game I might craft certain items that will aid my playthrough, and another game where I'll craft entirely different items.

 

 

 

I like this. Especially as it gets rid of the "Meh, I'm a warrior, not a blacksmith"-argument.

[Iyanga]

Unfortunately OP as a crafter I have to completely disagree that the crafting should be more like a job requiring more clicking, more tedium, more "decision" making. Because at the end of the day no matter what "challenges" are added to crafting it just equates to more clicking to get the finished product.

 

 

 

 

You sound like there was never ever a game or a part of a game where combat turned into boring and tedious clicking. Seriously, you are not telling me you enjoyed every single random encounter (Final Fantasy? Wizardry? Pick your game with random encounters) in every RPG out there and never ever thought:"Goddamn, let me get to my next point without another encounter, I'm tired of these enemies."? And there was never ever a moment in all your MMOs, where you got tired of slaying enemies in an area?

 

Sorry, but I think you praise combat way too much. Take pen & paper RPG combat. You roll a dice or two against the GM. How would you like a "Roll dice" button for combat in this game? And just a "roll dice" button, nothing more? Do you think combat would still be fun and interesting and not a tedious clicking of a button?

 

But if you add a challenge to the button click, you can turn it into something entertaining. Hell, a whole sub-industry formed out of "pressing a button at the right time". Yes, all those Rock Guitar and whatever games. Or..for story-driven button pressing: Indigo Prophecy. Metacritic 85%, user score 8.3 and what is the mechanic? The right button at the right time. Do you think those games would have worked with "Collect 100 pieces of junk and when you are done, press a single button"? No, because that's not a challenge.

[Lephys]

^ That's what I don't get. It's almost as if people are saying "This is why I don't craft things in REAL LIFE! I don't wanna click all those buttons over and over again!"

 

As if there's nothing to a crafting process that could ever be represented with anything more interesting than a recipe and a 3-second progress bar (that isn't even necessarily a progress bar if the game allows you to fail a crafting attempt).

 

Honestly, I don't think an abstracted "fight through the crafting process" would be entirely silly, even. You know, you're forging a blade, and the metal gets too hot in one particular point, and you have to hammer different ways to "defeat" the irregularity in the metal and produce a nice, uniform blade. If you break combat down, that's really all it is. You're trying to do something (dispatch your foes), and things beyond your control are trying to stop you (your foes).

 

Things that detriment the production of a quality blade, goblins that try to kill you and stop you from killing them... I don't see much of a difference, from a purely logistical standpoint.

[nomotog]

When it comes to crafting, I don't think we should be borrowing from combat because crafting and combat are really two different animals. I have seen that in motion before and crafting combat doesn't have the same level of spectacle as combat with swords and spells. Well maybe if you forged swords by throwing them at dragons well ridding wolves, but that wouldn't really be crafting.

I think crafting works best when you play the roll of a monkey banging rocks together trying to figure out which ones make fire. Make it all about exploration. Finding new materials and then finding out what you can do with them. I like to point to Dead rising 2 as the best crafting system I have ever seen.

[Lephys]

I'm just talking combat, by itself, as a sub-system. Combat gameplay as it pertains to the outcome of combat. The way in which you, the player, partake in combat. Crafting can easily be treated in that same manner. Logistically and technically.

 

I'm curious, though. Where have you "seen that in motion before"? You mean you've played a game with ACTUAL crafting-combat? This I need to learn about, 8D!

 

Also, I'm a big fan of exploration in crafting. Although, I've gotta say, as creative as some of the stuff was in Dead Rising 2, it still actually stuck pretty closely to the typical "collect-stuff-and-use-a-couple-dozen-recipes" system. You couldn't make your own unique polearm or anything. There was just the oar-machete polearm, or none at all. Things that should've been creatively combinable weren't part of the recipe list, and therefore weren't creatively combinable.

 

I don't want a system that lets you tie a leaf to a sword, or just melt a candelabra to a horn or something, just because they're two objects and they can technically be combinable. But, I think the system should offer plenty of room for creative discovery, rather than "Oooh, I got a new super-specific recipe!"

 

I think recipes should dictate what you can make, and within that should be a plethora of factors for variation and personal touch.

[Sensuki]

I liked the BG2 and Star Wars KotOR 2 crafting/upgrade systems. Haven't played Fallout: New Vegas.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Sensuki

[cleric Nemir]

The only thing that interests me as "crafting" is the ability to a)improve , b)modify , and c)create my own epic X,Y,Z,explained below:

 

a)improve - to craft an improved version of potion or a thrown item that would otherwise be unavailable for me to obtain throughout the game

b)modify - to modify an armor or weapon both visually and it's statistics

c)create my own - to start from scratch and create a unique armors and weapons exactly to my liking and name it as i please.

 

A crafting system similar to that of Neverwinter series. Nothing more,nothing less. In any case-yes,I am for a crafting skill: the crafting should be implemented only as an optional skill for those that want to bother with the mentioned a),b) and c),available to all,forced to none,and left entirely for a player to choose whether he/she likes and wants it or not. 

[Aldereth]

The only crafting system in any kind of game that is so fun that could sometime draw me away from combat are the starship building/ crafting from those 4X space game. While a dev may be able to recreate something similar, by means of components and equipment parts accompanied by visual, stats and ability change for the items. Heck, they could even throw a mini game in there.

 

The question become do we want to see one in a plot driven CRPG?

[Sheikh]

If crafting is gmalbing then it is pretty fun too.

[TheUnoNameless]

I think it goes back to implementation. Combat is usually the focus of the development, while crafting often feels like tacked on system, boring and unrewarding. Some would say it's better than nothing, but I don't think feature bloat is good.

[Micamo]

The question become do we want to see one in a plot driven CRPG?

No.