Anita Sarkeesian/Tropes and Women in Gaming

[alanschu]

I found several videos on youtube of different lady gamers responding to sarkeesian, saying that men are as objectified as much as women on video games, they are super fit, muscular and handsome the same way women have thin waist and big breasts.

 

This is called False Equivalence.

 

Males are typically depicted in a way that they are appealing to men.  Females are typically depicted in a way that they are appealing to men.

 

Check out this link and scroll down to "But men are all super-buff, they’re sexually objectified too! Men Want to Watch Desirable Women, Women Want to Be Desirable Women" for a breakdown of it (though his poll is unscientific, the results of what men consider "sexy" men and what women consider "sexy" men are different.

 

Here's a web comic that provides a clearer representation.

 

 

And if your counter argument is going to be "Well she's just drawing on her own stereotypes to make that Batman look the way that she wants" I'd say you're correct.  What's considered attractive is as much perpetuated by culture and environment, probably more so, than anything biological.  As such, that this whole discussion even exists now (where it didn't twenty years ago) is probably a reflection of the fact that there are a lot more female gamers out there.

 

 

 

EDIT: Interestingly I missed this:

 

 

I don't want to insult anybody, but it looks like many gamers don't even want to tackle this issue because they don't have the balls or theyhave a white knight complex, the ones I've seen critisize this point of view were mostly other gamer girls and some guys that have channels that have nothing to with gaming but are more like skeptics and decided to point out the fallacies in her arguments.

 

The link I put up above predicts the "white knight" defense and attempts to break it down

Edited March 17, 2013 by alanschu

[Malcador]

So anyone actually see anything concrete resulting from all of this or is this just SJW fodder ?

[alanschu]

I thought her problem with the trope was not that, in itself, there's something wrong with it, and not that it's the fault of the players that it occurs, but rather the frequency that developers purposefully make it occur, (in addition to there generally being more male protagonists than female protagonists).

 

This is certainly part of it in my opinion

 

Anita is NOT saying "Gamers are misogynistic for liking these games!"  Heck, she isn't even saying DEVELOPERS are misogynistic for using this trope.  I like Double Dragon myself (Double Dragon II was one of my favourites on the NES)

 

She's saying that this trope exists and has strong roots in the history of gaming.  She evidently considers this trope to be something that isn't ultimately good (feel free to disagree with this position) for gaming, particularly when considering that women are becoming gamers more and more.

 

And since the motivation is all about the profits (right), maybe more profits stand to be made by breaking down this barrier because evidently for guys the existence of this trope is inconsequential to them right?

 

 

In regards to female protagonists...even in a game like Zelda: Twilight Princess, (one of the games she sort-of used as showing the DiD trope), you have both a female and male protagonist - both of who kick butt together. Odd that she didn't mention that.

 

She did point out Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time, where Zelda does just fine while in disguise.  In Twilight Princess, is Zelda not incognito like the others?

 

 

I imagine the reaction is probably due to her criticizing video games and these people see it as an attack on a hobby they like. Well at least some, maybe the rest is just dog piling and her reaction to that just feeds more. Other than that I can't see anyone mustering up more than a shrug about this.

 

This was pretty much Movie Bob's reaction as well.  As in this is what got the internet in such a huff?

 

 

 

As I pointed out earlier however it's Imoen who springs you from Irenicus' prison at the beginning of the game, thus making you the damsel in distress and your later rescue more a matter of payback. I agree with Malcador however this is largely mountain out of molehill piffle.

 

Imoen is different, as you say, because she isn't kidnapped explicitly because she is a woman, and is certainly not helpless in her own right.  Although BioWare arguably could have done something better than making rescuing her a focus of the story (that's an RPG discussion, though).

Edited March 17, 2013 by alanschu

[Fighter]

I'd rather she be promoting the things women want to see. Instead of trying to censor (through public shaming) what men like seeing.

[AwesomeOcelot]

The issue is more "Why does this trope exist, and is there anything that should be done about it? And if so, why should we do about it?"

Yes. Did the video really make any arguments or even many statements about this at all? She called Double Dragon regressive crap, and that the damsel in distress trope seeks to paint women as weak, ineffective, or incapable (which would be a criticism of the developers that use it, especially ones that have used it many times over a decade and a half). I don't think it does necessarily seek to paint women as weak, as male characters get killed or captured all the time. I don't know why Double Dragon is regressive crap, I only played Super Double Dragon for about 20 minutes, and I only remember something about a dojo. Where is the justification for this? Where is the in depth analysis?

[Malcador]

I'd rather she be promoting the things women want to see. Instead of trying to censor (through public shaming) what men like seeing.

I imagine at some level she thinks she is trying to do that by encouraging the disuse of the tropes or something from her elevated profile (mainly from people writing nasty text about her online). Handcuffs writers a lot though I'd imagine if applied totally.

[alanschu]

 

I find myself agreeing with a lot of Movie Bob's assessment.

Hopefully not where he compares it to a first year course, because if so...man...he went to a crappy school

 

 

HAHA.  I think it's more just that the whole video comes across as a standard lecture for a course hahaha.

[Chaz]

Check out this link

and scroll down to "But men are all super-buff, they’re sexually

objectified too! Men Want to Watch Desirable Women, Women Want to Be

Desirable Women" for a breakdown of it (though his poll is unscientific,

the results of what men consider "sexy" men and what women consider

"sexy" men are different.

 

The point that you are missing is that even if.... Holy ****! look at them 8 packs on Gambit!!! No doubt women find it attactive, I could work my ass off and I doubt I would ever look like that, hell not even professional atheletes get to look like that, you're telling me that gambit is not overbuffed and Nightcrawler is standing on one hand ffs, he has a great physique as well. Also you are doing a straw man arguemnt, I never said women like overbuffed men (like zangief) I said that many characters are super fit and super handsome. and David Bowie is not a video game character wtf.

 

But that's fine, I dont mind if girls find this character or that character super hot, I'm not going to say it's wrong or that is unfair to men because most men don't look like that. Let everyone have their eye candies and be happy, only a douchebag would go around critizing people for beign attracted to the opposite sex and the fact that you enjoy watching their good physique.

 

As I said before, feminists are against biology, against sex and against free speech.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Chaz

[alanschu]

 

I'd rather she be promoting the things women want to see. Instead oftrying to censor (through public shaming) what men like seeing.

 

I suppose one could argue that women like not seeing that trope over and over? XD

 

Although the irony of this all is I think a lot of gamers, men and women, would like not seeing this trope over and over (and a lot of tropes for that matter).

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'd rather she be promoting the things women want to see. Instead of trying to censor (through public shaming) what men like seeing.

That would be quite nice.

 

As many times as I've heard the false equivalency argument, I've never actually seen someone give an example of what an idealized(instead of sexualized) woman would be/look like.

[alanschu]

The point that you are missing is that even if.... Holy ****!

look at them 8 packs on Gambit!!! No doubt women find it attactive, I

could work my ass off and I doubt I would ever look like that, hell not

even professional atheletes get to look like that, you're telling me

that guys is not overbuffed and Nightcrawler is standing on one hand

ffs, he has a great physique as well.

 

No, I think the point flew over your head.  You latched onto the picture (and evidently decided to not bother reading it either).

 

 

I have a pitch for the new protagonist in an upcoming video game:

 

http://media1.santabanta.com/full1/Global%20Celebrities%28M%29/Justin%20Bieber/justin-bieber-4a.jpg

 

I'm sure guys would love it.  But it wouldn't make sense to do so, right?  I mean, for the profits and all.

 

 

Since you seem to have glossed it over, here's this one again too (I'll even share the whole picture)

 

Edited March 17, 2013 by alanschu

[Chaz]

First of all, feminism is literally "The advocacy of women's rights on

the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.."

 

Exactly, you can't really be for equality if you only focus on the issues of one, if you are really for equality you have to focus for the issues of both, that's why feminists arguements are always one sided and sexism is a one way street for them, they only care about one side, and that will never reach equality.

 

Also, the patriarchy is part of the feminist theory, which is the cornerstone of their idiology, and if you ask me I reject the whole Idea of a patriarchy, I think it's lunacy

 

I'm sure guys would love it.

 

Haha, I don't plan to buy it, you know free market and all, but even so, I've played great games where the main character kinda looked like that. Raiden in Metal Gear Solid 2 is one example I can think off, that game was amazing and it was kind of a let down not beign able to play as snake, but you have to admit, raiden was a pretty boy that looked like a supermodel, he wasn't muscular and he was agile, it didn't bother me.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Chaz

[alanschu]

 

I'd rather she be promoting the things women want to see. Instead of trying to censor (through public shaming) what men like seeing.

That would be quite nice.

 

As many times as I've heard the false equivalency argument, I've never actually seen someone give an example of what an idealized(instead of sexualized) woman would be/look like.

 

There are non-hypersexualized depictions of women in comics/games.  Just like there are moderate images for men.

 

In my opinion, both of these are still typically considered "attractive" they just aren't hyper sexualized.  BG2's portraits are pretty well done IMO, but they are only face shots (and even then, one could argue Jaheira was made prettier than her portrait in BG1, probably because she's a love interest.  Same with Viconia.  Might be best to just go with BG1's portraits actually haha).

 

Of course, Neverwinter Nights completely dropped the ball with Aribeth

[AwesomeOcelot]

Was she really suggesting that it's a socially constructed myth that women are naturally weaker physically than men that's of course completely false? I ignored that statement when I watched the video, because I didn't think I understood it, because that interpretation would mean she was saying something pretty crazy. Even if it was debatable, nature vs nurture, it's not something you could say it's "of course" completely false.

[Fighter]

I suppose one could argue that women like not seeing that trope over and over? XD

 

And they take priority over the men that do like it why?

 

*I* don't want to see most of those stereotypes. I don't want to see many things. I'm not going to call people names for making it.

[Volourn]

She's evil. Plain and simple. Like any sexist.

[alanschu]

@Chaz

 

Unfortunately since you've effectively stated that you have a don't like feminists (which is fine), and because Anita identifies as a feminist, you ascribe to her all that you hate about feminists in general, I don't think there's much reason to continue on.

 

In my opinion, I consider you as dogmatic as you claim she is, for no other reason than I believe that anyone else not considering themselves a feminist would result in a more nuanced and less outright hostile response from you.

 

As such, I don't see our interactions really being in any way constructive.  I disagree with your assessment on females in video games (even today), and you disagree with mine, and I think it's best to just leave it at that as it's not like we're going to convince the other and I'm beyond the point where it's an interesting conversation between two sides that happen to disagree.

[alanschu]

 

I suppose one could argue that women like not seeing that trope over and over? XD

 

And they take priority over the men that do like it why?

 

*I* don't want to see most of those stereotypes. I don't want to see many things. I'm not going to call people names for making it.

 

 

No one is saying that they should take priority.  Anita is simply stating her perspective on the matter, which isn't even unique (nor is it even a uniquely female perspective).

 

If one views this particular treatment of women in games as potentially damaging in some way, then I think it's worth looking into what would cause someone to like this particular trope.

 

We're all social beings and on some level, constant exposure to various perceptions can have an effect on one's perception of the world.  What I find interesting is that, personally, I have some level of cognitive dissonance because I feel that the effects of violence in video games has on youth is overstated, yet here I am wondering if constant exposure to these types of tropes has an effect on kids people.  The events aren't precisely the same (and I certainly haven't spent any time trying to dissect the differences the two may have), but I find it interesting that I can take two issues that have arguments that aren't that dissimilar yet conclude one one way, and another the other way.  (Yay confirmation bias)

 

 

Maybe it's just some level of projection on my part that, since I tend to loathe many of the tropes in gaming, I can see this as being some level of "If this causes devs to change" and latching onto it!

 

 

EDIT: Changed kids to people.

Edited March 18, 2013 by alanschu

[Chaz]

Since you seem to have glossed it over, here's this one again too (I'll even share the whole picture)

 

Haha, that's cute, but first of all, look up "straw man arguement" I never said women liked overpowered hulks, in fact many women have told me about their dislike of excesively muscular men, weather in fiction or real life, I did say that women like men that are fit and handsome, and yeah, pretty much all protagonists are super fit and handsome guys, but the "pretty boy" stereotype doesn't botter me.

 

Unfortunately since you've effectively stated that you have a don't like feminists

 

Sorry, I never said that I dislike/hate feminists and or sarkeesian, but I did state that I don't agree with their approach if you want to reach equality, I do personally dislike sexist and extremists that are not for equality and just want to reverse the roles and install a matriarchy, which is never gonna happen but I still dislike their views.

 

I also don't like hate groups since many so called feminists devolve into misandry. Sorry you don't get to say that I hate you just because I disagree with you.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Chaz

[Orogun01]

This thread is turning me gay.

[AwesomeOcelot]

I have a pitch for the new protagonist in an upcoming video game:

 

http://media1.santabanta.com/full1/Global Celebrities(M)/Justin Bieber/justin-bieber-4a.jpg

 

I'm sure guys would love it.  But it wouldn't make sense to do so, right?  I mean, for the profits and all.

 

 

Since you seem to have glossed it over, here's this one again too (I'll even share the whole picture)

 

 

If that's what kind of game you'd like I'm not going to call you sexist for it, because I don't see why it would be. Even if it makes that guy uncomfortable, which I suspect may be repressed homosexuality, then that's not a good reason why it shouldn't exist. I'm sure homophobes would feel uncomfortable watching Shortbus or Tipping the Velvet, and racists would feel uncomfortable watching The Wire, but I don't care about their feelings, they don't have to watch it. If this was a valid position then, that things that make us feel uncomfortable is reason to seek its cessation, I can't stand romantic comedies and torture porn (Saw, W Delta Z), they make me physically ill, they should cease production immediately, or I could just not watch them, whichever. Edited March 18, 2013 by AwesomeOcelot

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

There are non-hypersexualized depictions of women in comics/games.  Just like there are moderate images for men.

I know. Most of the female X-men fall in to that category, as well most female Marvel, Image, and some Dark Horse characters. I would say the same about DC, but ever since the New52 brought back 90s artsyles......well no.(I would go into a "Blame DC" for the overseualization/hyperidealization, but don't feel like posting it)

 

Anyways, doesn't sexualization and idealization cross over? I mean almost every time an empowered confident woman is portrayed in fiction, they happen to be quite attractive. Hell men in fiction are generally closer to Ryan Gosling than some steroid swallowing hulk, so it isn't like men aren't sexualized at all.

 

Maybe I don't play enough games(or read enough comics) where women are one-dimensional characters that just sit there and look pretty.

Of course, Neverwinter Nights completely dropped the ball with Aribeth

Bioware does bungle female characters quite a bit IMO. Like Jack, who a male PC can cure of the crazies by (tenderly)putting it to her. Edited March 18, 2013 by KaineParker

[Raithe]

She's evil. Plain and simple. Like any sexist.

 

Just not from the 8th dimension?

 

There's a small portion of truth in her argument, and a lot of give. But her stance seems to be polarising folks by putting it at one extreme. Or at least, making a lot of people feel as if she's pushing the extreme feminist argument rather then being a point of discussion to debate.

 

Heh, I guess that's like the law on hate crimes. It doesn't matter how you meant something, it matters how someone took it. She might not have meant it that way, but a lot of people seem to be seeing it that way.

 

Of course, we could reverse that for say, men interested in reading romance novels. They're pretty much full of the tropes of "the bad boy ultra macho male who suddenly becomes ultra metrosexual and in touch with their feelings when the right woman comes along" and nobody really complains about that. Hell, I'd think more women would have complaints about that because it's saying that if they can't get their bad boys to change they are obviously not woman enough to do it.. 

 

Personally, I think this is getting a lot more vitriol and public noise then it really deserves.  Gaming has changed a lot in the last twenty years. It's gone from a freshly birthed area that catered pretty much to the  teenage boy, and is now dealing with the pangs of adjusting to a much wider audience as the appeal is now accepted by that mixed audience. The stories weren't used to be anti-feminist, they were used because they appealed to the audience of the time. The audience is changing, the stories are evolving.

 

We've gone from Donkey Kong, Frogger and Double Dragon to the likes of Mass Effect, Metal Gear Solid, Lara Croft (in all her variations), Max Payne,  and Beyond Good and Evil.

 

The idea of the Damsel in Distress as a gaming trope is there because it's a trope of a lot of non-gaming stories. It's been around for centuries. Hell, millenia. It's pretty much as archetypal as Saving the World, or going on Rip-Roaring Revenge.

 

To go with a quote used in this article boxofficebuzz - Strong Women in Video Games

 

So there we have it, women don't get respect in the video game industry because people in the industry don't tailor their games with a particularly feminist slant. They just use formulas that work. To that, I would like to reference young adult author John Green who says of reading, “ltimately, it doesn’t matter if the author intended a symbol to be there because the job of reading is not to understand the author’s intent. The job of reading is to use stories as a way of seeing other people as we see ourselves.” So too for gaming, it isn’t about what the narrative intends, but for us to see our reality. If it so happens that we see all of reality as being anti-feminist, then that says a little something about ourselves, doesn’t it?

[Chaz]

Was she really suggesting that it's a socially constructed myth that women are naturally weaker physically than men that's of course completely false? I ignored that statement when I watched the video, because I didn't think I understood it, because that interpretation would mean she was saying something pretty crazy. Even if it was debatable, nature vs nurture, it's not something you could say it's "of course" completely false.

 

 

Yeah, the video "Feminism vs FACTS" brought that up, I mentioned here how her views are against biology and sicentific facts and her defenders keep ignoring it, their response? they throw Justin Bieber pictures and comics with straw man arguements at me, which I responded, but they dont extend the same courtesy and respond to my arguements.

 

BTW, if you wanna play Justin Bieber online, have it it! none of my effing business.

 

 

Personally, I think this is getting a lot more vitriol and public

noise then it really deserves. 

 

I'm not sure I agree, many people have stayed away from this issue, I don't know of anyone recognizable in the gaming media that has challenged her views, Thunderf00t is not even a gaming channel

 

Gaming has changed a lot in the last

twenty years. It's gone from a freshly birthed area that catered pretty

much to the  teenage boy

 

Yeah, but was it wrong? the audience was overwhelmingly made of teenage boys and little kids, You can't even say  "yeah it was harmful because it portrayed women as helpless and inferior" because that's ballooney, many of us grew up with 8-bit games and are now adults, we don't see women as inferior. I certainly don't, that's why when I hear about a patriarchy and video games diminishing women, I completely disagree.

 

and is now dealing with the pangs of adjusting

to a much wider audience as the appeal is now accepted by that mixed

audience. The stories weren't used to be anti-feminist, they were used

because they appealed to the audience of the time. The audience is

changing, the stories are evolving.

 

Yes they are evolving, and will continue to.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Chaz

[alanschu]

Anyways, doesn't sexualization and idealization cross over? I mean almost every time an empowered confident woman is portrayed in fiction, they happen to be quite attractive. Hell men in fiction are generally closer to Ryan Gosling than some steroid swallowing hulk, so it isn't like men aren't sexualized at all.

 

Depends on the fiction.  From what very little exposure I have of comic books, I'd say the Ryan Gosling imagery isn't that common.  I don't know how common it is in video games either.

 

 

My issue tends to come more from how the character is represented as a whole, rather than purely based on looks.  For example, Isabella is one of my favourite NPCs, who dresses in less than protective clothing (though so dose Varric, the male rogue) and is clearly created to be a sexual person.  However, the way she comes across her sexuality doesn't exist simply for the player character to have sex with her.  She comes across as having her own nuances and just happens to like sex, and even uses her appearance with her own motivations in mind, and it's applied fairly consistently throughout the game.

 

Lara Croft in Tomb Raider 2 is fine, right up until the end of the game Lara seems to be her usual badass self, until a shower scene....  She looks at the camera, comments "haven't you seen enough" and shoots the camera.  At that point it is sort of the game developer stating "Yeah, we made her so that you'd want to ogle her."  This had the effect on the Mary Sue writer that loved the first game, and then later ended up feeling as though Lara "wasn't for her" which is unfortunate.

 

 

 

Maybe I don't play enough games(or read enough comics) where women are one-dimensional characters that just sit there and look pretty.

 

Eh, there is still some level that permeates gaming today.  There's been games that have given achievements/trophies for getting a close up shot of women's cleavage (you can see it as a part of OXM's tongue in cheek video

) and the like.  I know the God of War achievement for Bros before Hos saw some level of backlash as well (I don't actually know the context for getting the achievement though).

 

 

I still see it in Dragon Age games (women wearing this same piece of armor have their cleavage showing, where a guy does not....) even though I'd prefer they not be in there and actively state that I don't like it when it comes up.  But if one is going to rely on the profits justification (a perspective that I am skeptical about - though I haven't seen any sort of breakdown and find it hard to really prove this one way or another myself).

 

 

Bioware does bungle female characters quite a bit IMO. Like Jack, who a male PC can cure of the crazies by (tenderly)putting it to her.

 

I have heard this.  Though as someone that didn't romance Jack, I did notice Jack seemed pretty well adjusted in ME3 (which probably happens regardless, however), so I don't have any first hand insight regarding this, however.

 

Though I think Raithe's quote could seem pretty apt.

 

 

 

 

 

Was she really suggesting that it's a socially constructed myth that women are naturally weaker physically than men that's of course completely false? I ignored that statement when I watched the video, because I didn't think I understood it, because that interpretation would mean she was saying something pretty crazy. Even if it was debatable, nature vs nurture, it's not something you could say it's "of course" completely false.

 

Anita uses the word "strong" which initially made me go "Is she referring to physical strength?"  I ended up assuming that she is referring to something more like strength of character (things like resolve and capability of rescuing someone) because men typically are physically stronger.  My assumption may be incorrect, however.

Edited March 18, 2013 by alanschu