Selection Circles option poll

[Osvir]

Immersion mode = Be able to turn off selection circles entirely, AoE circles etc. etc.

Stuff that's best on a second playthrough when you know the area of effects or a mid-game/late-game option when you understand the gameplay more.

[Sensuki]

I'd only toggle them off to take screenshots and that's only if the option was actually there.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Sensuki

[Osvir]

^That's a great point and idea by Sensuki.

Being able to turn off the UI entirely for screenshots. I know there are some games that has deployed this, though I can't recall their names. Hrrmm... I think World of Warcraft did this? Final Fantasy XI? Aaah, I don't remember, but when you took a screenshot the game would automatically remove the UI from the screenshot, and another game required you to press and hold a button (you could key-bind it as well).

[Brother Pain]

Being able to set the color of each group of circles (eg. friend, foe, neutral, routed) from a few color options or via a slider or hex-code should be trivial to do, and would be good for people that like customization, and people that are color blind but not in the red-green spectrum. So I see no reason not to add this.

[AGX-17]

Being able to set the color of each group of circles (eg. friend, foe, neutral, routed) from a few color options or via a slider or hex-code should be trivial to do, and would be good for people that like customization, and people that are color blind but not in the red-green spectrum. So I see no reason not to add this.

Yeah, all you'd need are RGB sliders. Then you could change them to match the color of the terrain you're fighting on! Gray stone surface? Gray circles for player and enemy alike! Edited March 31, 2013 by AGX-17

[teknoman2]

My ability to not care could not be higher than it is.  If they want to give us custom selection circles that's cool but I won't care if they don't.  There is nothing else really worth talking about though.  If your selection circle color choices are going to make the game worse if you don't get what you want I only have three words.  Get over it.

[Ffordesoon]

I submit that if you advocate deliberately making a game substantially worse for people who have a disability simply because they should "get over it," then you are a childish jerk.

 

It's one thing if the solution is costly and difficult to implement. A separate mode for the blind, for example, would be wildly out of scope for this project, or perhaps any project, because how would you even do it? That would be a case where it would be unwise to cater to the needs (and, assuming a person with a disability would want to play PE, it is a need, not a want) of disabled gamers. So I can understand that objection.

 

But a feature like the one under discussion, which is (theoretically) utterly trivial to implement and could only benefit the project? Why the hell wouldn't you implement that? What, is Avellone gonna have to cut all his high-larious fourth-wall-breaking dialogue about the blue selection circles?

 

Some cRPG fans - not to mention Tim Cain and Josh Sawyer - are colorblind, and they can't "get over it," because it is physically impossible for them to do so. If that's a problem for you, I humbly submit that you need to "get over" yourself. And that goes for anyone who harbors such an attitude.

 

Yes, I know this post is far more confrontational than my usual ones, and no, I am not going to apologize for that. Some attitudes are too disgusting for politeness.

 

EDIT: It has occurred to me that I may have taken Karkarov's post out of context. In that case, I would be willing to apologize to him.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Ffordesoon

[teknoman2]

I submit that if you advocate deliberately making a game substantially worse for people who have a disability simply because they should "get over it," then you are a childish jerk.

 

 

 

EDIT: It has occurred to me that I may have taken Karkarov's post out of context. In that case, I would be willing to apologize to him.

indeed you have. he says (and i agree) that he just does not care if the feature is in or not. and if you consider the presence of that feature so important that you cant play the game without it, you should seriously consider what your gaming priorities are

[Lephys]

indeed you have. he says (and i agree) that he just does not care if the feature is in or not. and if you consider the presence of that feature so important that you cant play the game without it, you should seriously consider what your gaming priorities are

He actually says: "If your selection circle color choices are going to make the game worse if you don't get what you want I only have three words. Get over it."

 

Since not being able to discern between hostiles and allies in battle at a glance, purely because you happen to have a rare form of color blindness, makes the game quantifiably worse than the alternative (being able to discern between hostiles and allies in battle at a glance, just like everyone else can), I would say it's a bit silly to suggest that such people are somehow being ridiculous to wish for such a simple option that would prevent their game experience from actually being devoid of a trait inherent in other people's game experiences.

 

I mean, would you say the same thing if the game was only going to have one resolution (640 x 480), and people said "Maybe there should be at least one more resolution."? Would you tell them "If you don't have a 640x480 display, you should just get over it. I happen to HAVE a 640x480 display, but, in a completely unrelated note, I don't care if there are any other playable resolution options or not, u_u"?

 

Maybe we also shouldn't take the time to produce wheelchair-access ramps to restaurants and offices, because, if the lack of such things are going to make the restaurant or office visit worse for those in wheelchairs, just because they don't get what they want, they should just get over it. 'Cause, I mean, it's not like they NEED ramps. They just want them, selfishly, for no apparent reason. Just like the color-blind would want to change circle colors, sheerly because they're pretty.

[Ffordesoon]

Thank you for saying that in a way I couldn't, Lephys.

[teknoman2]

 

indeed you have. he says (and i agree) that he just does not care if the feature is in or not. and if you consider the presence of that feature so important that you cant play the game without it, you should seriously consider what your gaming priorities are

He actually says: "If your selection circle color choices are going to make the game worse if you don't get what you want I only have three words. Get over it."

 

Since not being able to discern between hostiles and allies in battle at a glance, purely because you happen to have a rare form of color blindness, makes the game quantifiably worse than the alternative (being able to discern between hostiles and allies in battle at a glance, just like everyone else can), I would say it's a bit silly to suggest that such people are somehow being ridiculous to wish for such a simple option that would prevent their game experience from actually being devoid of a trait inherent in other people's game experiences.

 

I mean, would you say the same thing if the game was only going to have one resolution (640 x 480), and people said "Maybe there should be at least one more resolution."? Would you tell them "If you don't have a 640x480 display, you should just get over it. I happen to HAVE a 640x480 display, but, in a completely unrelated note, I don't care if there are any other playable resolution options or not, u_u"?

 

Maybe we also shouldn't take the time to produce wheelchair-access ramps to restaurants and offices, because, if the lack of such things are going to make the restaurant or office visit worse for those in wheelchairs, just because they don't get what they want, they should just get over it. 'Cause, I mean, it's not like they NEED ramps. They just want them, selfishly, for no apparent reason. Just like the color-blind would want to change circle colors, sheerly because they're pretty.

i think you're missing the point... the default setting of the colors is set to assist the color blind, and OP is asking for a slider that let's him change the colors to what he likes because he is not color blind. so that means that the slider is an optional feature that is purely cosmetic. so if you think the gaming experience will be poorer because the game lacks a cosmetic feature, get over it

[Sensuki]

 

 

indeed you have. he says (and i agree) that he just does not care if the feature is in or not. and if you consider the presence of that feature so important that you cant play the game without it, you should seriously consider what your gaming priorities are

He actually says: "If your selection circle color choices are going to make the game worse if you don't get what you want I only have three words. Get over it."

 

Since not being able to discern between hostiles and allies in battle at a glance, purely because you happen to have a rare form of color blindness, makes the game quantifiably worse than the alternative (being able to discern between hostiles and allies in battle at a glance, just like everyone else can), I would say it's a bit silly to suggest that such people are somehow being ridiculous to wish for such a simple option that would prevent their game experience from actually being devoid of a trait inherent in other people's game experiences.

 

I mean, would you say the same thing if the game was only going to have one resolution (640 x 480), and people said "Maybe there should be at least one more resolution."? Would you tell them "If you don't have a 640x480 display, you should just get over it. I happen to HAVE a 640x480 display, but, in a completely unrelated note, I don't care if there are any other playable resolution options or not, u_u"?

 

Maybe we also shouldn't take the time to produce wheelchair-access ramps to restaurants and offices, because, if the lack of such things are going to make the restaurant or office visit worse for those in wheelchairs, just because they don't get what they want, they should just get over it. 'Cause, I mean, it's not like they NEED ramps. They just want them, selfishly, for no apparent reason. Just like the color-blind would want to change circle colors, sheerly because they're pretty.

i think you're missing the point... the default setting of the colors is set to assist the color blind, and OP is asking for a slider that let's him change the colors to what he likes because he is not color blind. so that means that the slider is an optional feature that is purely cosmetic. so if you think the gaming experience will be poorer because the game lacks a cosmetic feature, get over it

 

Incorrect.

 

The OP is asking for an option to use the legacy colours of red for enemies, green for player controlled units and light blue for NPCs.

[Amentep]

If the option to change is trivial to implement I'm all for it as mentioned previously (Violet for allies! Yellow for enemies! Chartruse for neutrals!)

 

But the default colors (and thus the only selection circle colors if creating a "change circle options" is not trivial to do) really should take into consideration red-green and yellow-blue color blindness (which, I believe would make the enemy-ally choices something like red-blue or yellow-green or something)

Edited April 2, 2013 by Amentep

[Ffordesoon]

I think I see the crux of the problem.

 

Y'all do realize there's more than one kind of color blindness, right? What works for someone with red-green color blindness might not work for someone with blue-yellow color blindness, and vice versa. That's the point of being able to change the colors to something that works for each individual player.

 

There is an additional cosmetic benefit to it, of course. The circles might blend in with an environment of a certain color, but being able to switch to another color on the fly would fix the problem without limiting the color palette Obsidian has to work with.

 

That's a secondary benefit, however. Simply being able to switch between modes for different types of color blindness in addition to a legacy mode and a "turn the circles off entirely" mode would be perfectly satisfactory. A palette slider with hundreds of colors on it would be nice, but it's not at all necessary.

 

Come to think of it, depending on how faithfully they're taking after Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, a color customization system should already be in the game at character creation anyway. Why not extend that to the circles?

[JFSOCC]

you know, there are more ways to visually give information than colour. thickness of the circle, shape (hexagons rather than circles) whether it pulses or stays, whether the circle is transparent or slightly opaque.

Edited April 2, 2013 by JFSOCC

[Ffordesoon]

Sure, sure. Those would also be fine.

[teknoman2]

 

 

 

Incorrect.

 

The OP is asking for an option to use the legacy colours of red for enemies, green for player controlled units and light blue for NPCs.

it still remains a cosmetic option, so i dont see why so much arguing about expressing an opinion of indiference (although expressed a bit roughly).

[Ffordesoon]

@Tekno:

 

It is what you call the "rough expression" of the opinion that I take issue with. I don't care if you're indifferent to it, which is why I didn't shout at the other people who said they were indifferent to it. My issue was solely with the disdainful tone Karkarov used, and only because by the time you quoted it approvingly, the discussion had turned to one about color blindness.

 

EDIT: In other words, I initially read your quotation of Karkarov as an implied "Yeah! Colorblind people need to get over their coloblindness!" Whether that was actually your intention or not is another matter.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Ffordesoon

[Sensuki]

 

 

Incorrect.

 

The OP is asking for an option to use the legacy colours of red for enemies, green for player controlled units and light blue for NPCs.

it still remains a cosmetic option, so i dont see why so much arguing about expressing an opinion of indiference (although expressed a bit roughly).

 

 

 

This is an argument? News to me.

you know, there are more ways to visually give information than colour. thickness of the circle, shape (hexagons rather than circles) whether it pulses or stays, whether the circle is transparent or slightly opaque.

By legacy I am referring to exactly the same as, if not as close to Baldur's Gate as possible.

[Lephys]

i think you're missing the point... the default setting of the colors is set to assist the color blind, and OP is asking for a slider that let's him change the colors to what he likes because he is not color blind. so that means that the slider is an optional feature that is purely cosmetic. so if you think the gaming experience will be poorer because the game lacks a cosmetic feature, get over it

Rendering a point moot with another point is not the same thing as "missing" it. The default setting of the circle colors was chosen to assist the most common form of color blindness. That still leaves other forms of color-blindness. Not to mention the fact that it's not such a ridiculous thing to "wonder if it might be possible" to have some extra selection circle options, rather than to demand them. So, not only are there perfectly valid reasons to desire extra selection circle options, but there are also absolutely zero perfectly valid reasons to proclaim that the desire for such is a silly thing that should simply be "gotten over" in the event that it doesn't get fulfilled. Not to mention obvious...

 

"Well, if there aren't any wombats in the game, and you love wombats, you'll just hafta get over it." That's actually not even true, as they could simply mod the game to add in wombats (or, as the topic deals with, selection circle color options). So, there are, as far as I can count on one hand, a negative amount of options, at this point, to tell someone they need to get over a simple reasonable request.

 

I'm merely commenting on the extreme lack of necessity of the response in question. That's all.

 

And, for the record, almost nothing in the UI is "purely" cosmetic, unless you've got a terribly designed UI. The colors and appearance of things like selection circles are chosen for a reason (the common defaults of green and red are actually complementary colors and are basically complete opposites on the color wheel, for example); to allow all the elements displayed to the player to be as quickly and easily distinguishable as possible. Is it the end of the world if you have to spend 2 extra seconds of looking to see who it is that's actually surrounding the character you're currently focusing on? Of course not. But it shouldn't have to be done... especially the 1,000+ times you're going to have to notice/utilize such awareness throughout an entire playthrough.

 

Everyone's eyes are different, and various colors affect this ease of awareness in various ways for various people. Obviously the blue/red defaults Obsidian has announced is an awesome idea that blankets the vast majority of players, but it's hardly unreasonable or silly, in the least, to request customizable control over the appearance of the selection circles, or any other UI element, for that matter, so long as it wouldn't be an arduous undertaking to implement.

 

Clearly, if it's going to take an extra 500 man-hours to implement, it probably shouldn't be done. I don't think anyone has expressed a belief contrary to this.

[AGX-17]

If the option to change is trivial to implement I'm all for it as mentioned previously (Violet for allies! Yellow for enemies! Chartruse for neutrals!)

 

But the default colors (and thus the only selection circle colors if creating a "change circle options" is not trivial to do) really should take into consideration red-green and yellow-blue color blindness (which, I believe would make the enemy-ally choices something like red-blue or yellow-green or something)

It would not be difficult to have RGB customization. If you could do it with your UI menus in a JPRG in the mid 90s there's no reason you couldn't in a PC game in 2014.

[Amentep]

 

If the option to change is trivial to implement I'm all for it as mentioned previously (Violet for allies! Yellow for enemies! Chartruse for neutrals!)

 

But the default colors (and thus the only selection circle colors if creating a "change circle options" is not trivial to do) really should take into consideration red-green and yellow-blue color blindness (which, I believe would make the enemy-ally choices something like red-blue or yellow-green or something)

It would not be difficult to have RGB customization. If you could do it with your UI menus in a JPRG in the mid 90s there's no reason you couldn't in a PC game in 2014.

 

While I *think* it would be easy, not being a game programmer who has worked with any of the Obsidian programs they're using I don't *know* that its easy so prefer to hedge my bets.

[Ristora]

I have a friend who sees only in gray-scale. I know she would appreciate the option of selecting different shapes, as was mentioned, hexagons for example, in addition to circles. This is certainly not a moot topic.