Dialog system

[qstoffe]

No keyword dialog system like the one Wasteland 2 will use please. Or do anyone argue for this in this game too?

 

Wasteland 2 discussion link:

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3417

Edited February 11, 2013 by qstoffe

[Sedrefilos]

Keyword system (except hidden, typed from you keywords for extra info) sucks big big big big time imo. You cannot role play anything with this system. And to be honest, you cannot role-play if you start with a full party (rather than just "you") either. But this is minor compared to the keyword system. No keywords plz (although, I don't think Eternity will have a system lkike this. I'm 99,99% sure they'll go with the classic complete sentence dialogue system).

Edited February 11, 2013 by Sedrefilos

[Hassat Hunter]

BG/PST-style only please.

 

No keywords, no horrible "mass effect" wheels. Just what is written is what you say. No more 'that's not what I wanted to say' a lot of modern RPG's are plagued with...

[Greydragon]

BG/PST-style only please.

 

No keywords, no horrible "mass effect" wheels. Just what is written is what you say. No more 'that's not what I wanted to say' a lot of modern RPG's are plagued with...

Exactly. Please do not summarize; take advantage of the PC and write the entire dialogue out where we can see and analyse it. I miss being able to do that, a lot. 

[Ffordesoon]

I think there are a lot of unexplored possibilities within the keyword system, and I think it's entirely appropriate for Wasteland 2. The vitriolic reaction to its dialogue system has more to do with mismanaged expectations and most players' relative lack of experience with the mechanic outside of the horribly implemented systems in Morrowind and Oblivion than it does any real deficiency in the mechanic, IMHO.

 

How exactly It follows that I think said mechanic is equally appropriate for an unrelated game following in a different tradition entirely is beyond me, but I don't think it is remotely suited to PE. The IE games were justly renowned for their vast and meaty dialogue trees, and any spiritual successor should carry that basic system over.

[Sedrefilos]

I think there are a lot of unexplored possibilities within the keyword system, and I think it's entirely appropriate for Wasteland 2. The vitriolic reaction to its dialogue system has more to do with mismanaged expectations and most players' relative lack of experience with the mechanic outside of the horribly implemented systems in Morrowind and Oblivion than it does any real deficiency in the mechanic, IMHO.

 

How exactly It follows that I think said mechanic is equally appropriate for an unrelated game following in a different tradition entirely is beyond me, but I don't think it is remotely suited to PE. The IE games were justly renowned for their vast and meaty dialogue trees, and any spiritual successor should carry that basic system over.

 

 

I don't know what they are going to implement more in the wasteland 2 keyword system, but,as it is now, I only saw information tabs and "i'll do it/goodbeye" options such as the Elder Scrolls series had (which they changed it to normal dialogue system in Fallout 3 and Skyrim - though they still have crappy roleplay ).

 

Keywords also are so dull and unimmersive. I'm happy we are gonna have the classic late 90's dialogue system.

[Ffordesoon]

Just because that's all they showed doesn't mean there isn't more there.

[Sedrefilos]

Just because that's all they showed doesn't mean there isn't more there.

 

I really really hope so, but I tend to dislike keyword dialogue systems, first because I believe they mess up the immersion, second because I didn't liked it in the elder scrolls games (the only rpg I can recall that I have played with that system) and third because I didn't saw anything great about it in their video.

 

Anyway I'm sure Eternity won't use this system so I'm relaxed about that here and I really DO believe they make it work great in Wasteland 2 'cause I'm really excited about that game too and I want to support inXile when it's out.

[Lephys]

If we had to use keywords, it would be tough to dye your log the color you wanted. Maybe they should just have a color wheel selector for us to dye our logs?

 

 

Horrendous joke aside, I am also quite excited to see how that system works out in Wasteland 2 (I know it's been used before, but I haven't played the older games that fiddled with it). And while I don't think it COULDN'T work in P:E, I hardly think it's necessary. It seems to fit better in a setting like Wasteland, where you're not surrounded by bustling cities and folk and oodles of lore and all that jazz. The tone of your dialogues is going to be much more investigative in that setting than it is in a typical medieval-fantasy setting. There would be so many keywords, it would be crazy. And it would kind of detract from the extremely rich style of the dialogue, methinks, if not done just so.

 

Could be done, but doesn't really need to be.

[Sylvius the Mad]

And to be honest, you cannot role-play if you start with a full party (rather than just "you") either.

That's nonsense.  Of course you can.

 

You're basically claiming that tabletop players can't roleplay unless the DM controls some of the characters.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

As long as the dialogue system lets me have full control over what the PC will say, I'm fine. I prefer a full text system though.

[Malekith]

PS:T style

[Shadenuat]

Nothing wrong with keywords, but Obsidian best experience comes from playing with their dialogue trees, so it would be just appropriate to use for successor the same thing that worked in IE games so well.

Wasteland 2 is just being Wasteland for people who liked Wasteland. There is no universal truth about how dialogues should be done in cRPG's, and keywords can be just as fun as any other system. Fallout actually had keywords as additional element. Wizardry 8 had keywords as it's basic dialogue system, but supported it with some regular dialogue picks when needed. Morrowind was another game where keywords worked well.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Shadenuat

[ddillon]

Tbh, I might prefer a keyword system to that of NWN2...

 

"I think I deserve a reward for doing this for you."

 

...Really? That's the best that you could write? Then I'd prefer to just click "payment" or "reward" instead.

 

And: Why does asking one question from a list often prevent me from asking the other questions, sometimes preventing me from getting all of the available information about a subject or quest? This doesn't create replay value, if that was the idea... but it does annoy me... Yeah, that list of topic keywords is looking good...

 

Why do each of my companions have ten topics on their dialogue screens that all plug into the same conversation at different points? There's usually one root option that naturally leads to the others in logical sequence... so why not give me only that one option instead of wasting my time by forcing me to wade thru a cluttered list of pseudo-options, most of which lead to dialogue that I've already read?

 

Even the writers seem to have trouble making sense of this structure at times, apparently, because characters sometimes reference things that haven't actually been said:

 

Neeshka: "I told you that I wouldn't let anything happen to you."

Me: "That's sweet... but no you didn't..."

 

In short, shape up or go keyword.

 

*Note: I'm 2/3 thru Act 1 of NWN2 and struggling to continue playing the game... this is my second attempt at playing the game... I played around the time of the Gold Edition release but quit shortly before the beginning of Act 2 because the game is so bad... trying to play it again for the sake of playing MotB which is said to be much better.

Edited February 18, 2013 by ddillon

[Malekith]

Tbh, I might prefer a keyword system to that of NWN2...

 

"I think I deserve a reward for doing this for you."

 

...Really? That's the best that you could write? Then I'd prefer to just click "payment" or "reward" instead.

 

And: Why does asking one question from a list often prevent me from asking the other questions, sometimes preventing me from getting all of the available information about a subject or quest? This doesn't create replay value, if that was the idea... but it does annoy me... Yeah, that list of topic keywords is looking good...

 

Why do each of my companions have ten topics on their dialogue screens that all plug into the same conversation at different points? There's usually one root option that naturally leads to the others in logical sequence... so why not give me only that one option instead of wasting my time by forcing me to wade thru a cluttered list of pseudo-options, most of which lead to dialogue that I've already read?

 

Even the writers seem to have trouble making sense of this structure at times, apparently, because characters sometimes reference things that haven't actually been said:

 

Neeshka: "I told you that I wouldn't let anything happen to you."

Me: "That's sweet... but no you didn't..."

 

In short, shape up or go keyword.

 

*Note: I'm 2/3 thru Act 1 of NWN2 and struggling to continue playing the game... this is my second attempt at playing the game... I played around the time of the Gold Edition release but quit shortly before the beginning of Act 2 because the game is so bad... trying to play it again for the sake of playing MotB which is said to be much better.

Start MotB. You don't need to have finished the NWN2 to play the expansion, the stories are 99% separate

[Ffordesoon]

Dude. Start MotB.

 

I'm a crazy Obsidian fan, and I wanted to slit my wrists five minutes into NWN2. MotB is an amazing alternate-universe NWN2 disguised as an expansion. Skip to it.

[.Leif.]

Dude. Start MotB.

 

I'm a crazy Obsidian fan, and I wanted to slit my wrists five minutes into NWN2. MotB is an amazing alternate-universe NWN2 disguised as an expansion. Skip to it.

I'll take your advice.

 

What is interesting to me is the ways Obsidian might display dialogue and the ways skills will be involved. Please don't tell me if a choice is going to "work" or not.

[moridin84]

"I think I deserve a reward for doing this for you."

 

And: Why does asking one question from a list often prevent me from asking the other questions, sometimes preventing me from getting all of the available information about a subject or quest? This doesn't create replay value, if that was the idea... but it does annoy me... Yeah, that list of topic keywords is looking good...

 

 

 

Well it's supposed to be a conversation. 

 

*Note: I'm 2/3 thru Act 1 of NWN2 and struggling to continue playing the game... this is my second attempt at playing the game... I played around the time of the Gold Edition release but quit shortly before the beginning of Act 2 because the game is so bad... trying to play it again for the sake of playing MotB which is said to be much better.

 

The orcs right? That part is pretty bad. I mean, slaughtering your way through an entire army of orcs sounds cool but it's a tad tedious. The best part of Neverwinter Nights 2 is the characters, and the castle thing.

 

So yeah, probably skip to MotB. It really is amazing. 

[Night Stalker]

What is interesting to me is the ways Obsidian might display dialogue and the ways skills will be involved. Please don't tell me if a choice is going to "work" or not.

 

I think that without any of the special modes on, you will see the threshold (whether a choice is going to "work" or not), but if you enable Expert mode, you won't see it (and a lot of other "helper" information).

 

Depending on how moddable the game ends up being, that might be your only choice.

[Nonek]

One thing i've always liked about Obsidian is the fact that we get to play effective and formidable characters, and that this is reflected in their dialogue, such as a ruthless Michael Thorntons final speech to Albatross, the terrifying presence perk in New Vegas or even the ocassional outburst in NWN2, for instance the park showdown with Neeshka's ex boss. Of course there's also the more "practical" aspects of the Nameless One. This is something i'd like to see more of in Eternity, a whole playthrough where you can play through as a rather psychotic character, thinking about it logically the path of the usual adventurer is one of horror and brutality, so a character who's evolved to deal with that in a very confrontational manner might be a logical option.

 

I'd also like to see a character who can be played as rather close mouthed, with dialogue options such as "steady glare,"  "growling acknowldgement" or "brief nod" that makes the other conversationalist feel uncomfortable, and maybe even babble nervously. Straightforward characters might even be appreciative of a less verbally dextrous protagonist, and approve of a no nonsense attiyude. I wouldn't even mind a mute character who had to communicate through sign language, Christine's finger talking in Dead Money was suprisingly effective and immersive for me.

 

I feel I must state that i'm not looking for a streamlined upper right, middle right and lower right conversation and personality icon like in DA2, but merely a few more exotic options in the dialogue tree.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Nonek

[Tamerlane]

I'd also like to see a character who can be played as rather close mouthed, with dialogue options such as "steady glare,"  "growling acknowldgement" or "brief nod" that makes the other conversationalist feel uncomfortable, and maybe even babble nervously. Straightforward characters might even be appreciative of a less verbally dextrous protagonist, and approve of a no nonsense attiyude. I wouldn't even mind a mute character who had to communicate through sign language, Christine's finger talking in Dead Money was suprisingly effective and immersive for me.

I was kind of mixed about a lot of things in The Walking Dead, but one of the things that made me happier than a ****-covered fly was the fact that the game often gave you the option of not saying anything. A lot of RPGs have this weird thing where they expect the PC to say something every few lines, even if their contribution to the conversation is just a pointless and unnatural "Go on."

[Lephys]

I was kind of mixed about a lot of things in The Walking Dead, but one of the things that made me happier than a ****-covered fly was the fact that the game often gave you the option of not saying anything. A lot of RPGs have this weird thing where they expect the PC to say something every few lines, even if their contribution to the conversation is just a pointless and unnatural "Go on."

Haha. I know what you mean.

 

"I'd just like to interrupt and say that the sound of your voice is both soothing AND informative. Now please continue, u_u..."

 

Although, speaking of that, it would be pretty cool if there were instances when you could actually interrupt people (longwinded people, for example, who don't see anything wrong with telling you an entire story for 5 straight minutes, out of the blue). I recall a few games having NPCs who'd basically reward you (in some fashion... or the game would) for listening to their entire, lengthy bit of speech. Of course, they used the silly checkpointy ("Go on" versus "Well, that's great, but I really must be going now") system.

[ddillon]

 

 

I'm 2/3 thru Act 1 of NWN2 and struggling to continue playing the game... this is my second attempt at playing the game... I played around the time of the Gold Edition release but quit shortly before the beginning of Act 2 because the game is so bad... trying to play it again for the sake of playing MotB which is said to be much better.

The orcs right? That part is pretty bad. I mean, slaughtering your way through an entire army of orcs sounds cool but it's a tad tedious. The best part of Neverwinter Nights 2 is the characters, and the castle thing.

 

So yeah, probably skip to MotB. It really is amazing.

 

 

Yep, just wrapping up the bit with the orcs. Irritated about being forced to accept the bard and the paladin. Also, in the second clan cave, I'm carefully carving my way thru the area, and I send Neeshka ahead to scout... then, bam: The bulk of my party is being attacked by orcs apparently spawned out of nowhere? I notice the combat rolls and whatnot, switch back to the main party, and of course Qara is being hammered by orcs.

 

I'm tempted to skip to MotB, but the main character is the same both the OC and MotB, rt? So wouldn't I be missing out not knowing what the character has been thru, who he's met, where he's been, etc?

 

Mostly, tho, the interface and mechanics are just awful. So far I've managed to make it bearable by taking the Dinosaur Companion feat (introduced by SoZ, overpowered for the OC) and bumping the party size limit to 6 characters. This makes the combat less tedious, and besides that the game seems somewhat balanced for a larger party if you don't spam potions and don't rest after every battle (which seems to be the expected manner of playing for a 4-character party). I try to complete the smaller areas without rest, and I try to rest only once in the larger areas at a spot that I feel is safe or defensible from a roleplaying perspective. Also, the larger party size allows me to experience more character dialog, which is good because I won't likely be completing the OC a second time unless it gets much better in Acts 2 and 3.

 

Also, a friend told me that Sand and Shandra, two of the characters that I've liked so far, become joinable NPCs in Act 2, so I'm wondering if that might make things better. Tho Google auto-complete spoiled part of Shandra's story for me... Perhaps fate is saying: Stop playing this awful game!

Edited February 23, 2013 by ddillon

[Acre]

For important dialogue I'd prefer a very pruned-down dialogue tree with no options to "go back up" the tree (like Alpha Protocol), combined with a system where you can prompt NPC's for additional info by clicking on items in your inventory or quest-log entries (like how you used your "gold" item in Quest for Glory to start trading)

[moridin84]

 

 

I'm 2/3 thru Act 1 of NWN2 and struggling to continue playing the game... this is my second attempt at playing the game... I played around the time of the Gold Edition release but quit shortly before the beginning of Act 2 because the game is so bad... trying to play it again for the sake of playing MotB which is said to be much better.

The orcs right? That part is pretty bad. I mean, slaughtering your way through an entire army of orcs sounds cool but it's a tad tedious. The best part of Neverwinter Nights 2 is the characters, and the castle thing.

 

So yeah, probably skip to MotB. It really is amazing.

 

Yep, just wrapping up the bit with the orcs. Irritated about being forced to accept the bard and the paladin. Also, in the second clan cave, I'm carefully carving my way thru the area, and I send Neeshka ahead to scout... then, bam: The bulk of my party is being attacked by orcs apparently spawned out of nowhere? I notice the combat rolls and whatnot, switch back to the main party, and of course Qara is being hammered by orcs.

 

I'm tempted to skip to MotB, but the main character is the same both the OC and MotB, rt? So wouldn't I be missing out not knowing what the character has been thru, who he's met, where he's been, etc?

 

Mostly, tho, the interface and mechanics are just awful. So far I've managed to make it bearable by taking the Dinosaur Companion feat (introduced by SoZ, overpowered for the OC) and bumping the party size limit to 6 characters. This makes the combat less tedious, and besides that the game seems somewhat balanced for a larger party if you don't spam potions and don't rest after every battle (which seems to be the expected manner of playing for a 4-character party). I try to complete the smaller areas without rest, and I try to rest only once in the larger areas at a spot that I feel is safe or defensible from a roleplaying perspective. Also, the larger party size allows me to experience more character dialog, which is good because I won't likely be completing the OC a second time unless it gets much better in Acts 2 and 3.

 

Also, a friend told me that Sand and Shandra, two of the characters that I've liked so far, become joinable NPCs in Act 2, so I'm wondering if that might make things better. Tho Google auto-complete spoiled part of Shandra's story for me... Perhaps fate is saying: Stop playing this awful game!

 

Once you have done the orc thing you won't need to party with the paladin again and I never partied with the bard in the first place. They kinda stick around but do very little if you don't party with them. 

 

Last time I played NWN2 I used the console to level up my character to max level so I could enjoy the game without having to deal with the irritating combat system.

 

There's very little connection between MotB and the original game. At the start of the game you are a bazillion miles away from Neverwinter don't really go back. In the game you meet one companion and by talking to him you can "decide what happened" in the original game.