Stash: The Unlimited Inventory Mechanic

[Bitula]

To avoid the „dumb down” effect, the stash should be a limited but high capacity cart, or mule (eg.: donkey). Then the normal inventory could be IWD or BG-like. Solves everything: our beloved classical inventory management remains,  “degenerate” game play is slightly prevented. I don’t think a magic bag is a nice option, that is an “uber” item, which should cost a fortune, and available at mid to end game if at all. The scavenger guild is a bad idea, it eliminates the fun of checking your opponents on the spot, since any, even low level foe can rarely have something valuable on him, that is the point of random surprise.

[TrashMan]

A proper RPG shouldn't encourage illogical out-of-character behavior.

 

Carrying everything, robbing everyone, breaking into houses, checking dumpsters - that is NOT how you'd expect a normal human to behave.

Yet the game enforces and rewards such behavior.

 

 

Going into a dungeon and HAVING to choose what to take and what to leave is how it should be.

[JFSOCC]

Inventory management is a staple of party based RPG gaming. If you consider that a waste of time then perhaps the genre's not your cup of tea.

"it's always been like this" has never been a very good argument in any context.

 

Alright, I get the dumb down argument.

 

So let me pose a different question. Hopefully more at the core of the argument.

"In what way would inventory management be a fun and challenging part of the game, without becoming tedious or arbitrary"

Edited February 5, 2013 by JFSOCC

[TRX850]

What if you could only add to the deep-stash-wormhole-thingy once you'd cleared a dungeon level, or cleared an overland area?

 

It would incentivize strategic gear selection while you were adventuring on that dungeon level or outdoor area.

 

Anything you couldn't carry, you could temporarily store in chests and containers, then deep stash them once you'd dealt with all enemies/factions.

[Bitula]

A proper RPG shouldn't encourage illogical out-of-character behavior.

 

Carrying everything, robbing everyone, breaking into houses, checking dumpsters - that is NOT how you'd expect a normal human to behave.

Yet the game enforces and rewards such behavior.

 

 

Going into a dungeon and HAVING to choose what to take and what to leave is how it should be.

I am talking about hostile territories like dungeons which comprise 90% percent of such game, not peaceful towns. Anyway a party would comprise at least one thief and one typical fighter/barbarian, so as a general consensus the party could opt to do battle as much as possible. It's quite realistic.

[Gyges]

I say the "other" unlimited section of the bag contains the trash items that wont sell for much except when sold en-mass and that we may put any gear we find in the unlimited container, the cost being a reduction in value when selling it. You would however open up the slot it previously roomed so you can pick up whatever item you feel is more valuable.

Either that, or you should be able to break down the item into materials you can use in crafting, these would not weigh you down and free up the slot the item occupied.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Gyges

[Stun]

Am divorcing myself from this thread since the core debate seems to pit the preference of convenience (keep my inventory capacity unlimited!) against the preference of strategy/ choice-consequence (make me have to make due with a limited inventory space). Such a debate goes nowhere, and even less so without Developer engagement, of which we've had none on this thread

 

But just to tie up an Unrelated loose end...

@Stun:

 

Mm-hmm. That's what I thought you'd say. And I'm so glad you did, because you just revealed the depth of your ignorance.

 

You are welcome to dislike Japanese RPGs.

Ugh. I don't! I don't dislike them at all. My point was that I generally categorize JRPGs as their own genre, since at their core they're so deliberately different than your standard WRPG, Like the ones Obsidian and its individual developers make, and have been making their entire careers. To even mention JRPGs in such a context is to basically change the subject.

[Ffordesoon]

@Stun:

 

That's fair. I retract my previous statements and apologize for impugning your character.

[Helm]

I seriously don't get why the inventory system has to be changed so substantially. I have not even seen one complaint about the inventory system used in the IE games, but for some reason Josh still thinks that he MUST fix what isn't broken.

 

With an unlimted inventory you are really just removing the ability for you to build your character/party by finding items to improve your inventory. And you are also removing the need to make wise strategic choices about gear selection.

[Gfted1]

I dont have a problem witht the proposed system mainly because I dont think it will affect me much (I will be a remorseless camping machine). I do have to admit however that I was pretty surprised by the reasoning for the mechanic change. I erroneously thought that looting every single object on the continent and thus breaking the "economy" was the degenerative gameplay, not the walking back and forth to do it. I honestly dont care how someone else plays their game and I even respect that if a player wants to do all that work of walking back and forth than they deserve to reap the monetary rewards.

 

Whats peoples thoughts on a weighless but slot based inventory system ala Diablo 3? It removes weight problems while still keeping the "haul" resonable.

[JFSOCC]

I seriously don't get why the inventory system has to be changed so substantially. I have not even seen one complaint about the inventory system used in the IE games, but for some reason Josh still thinks that he MUST fix what isn't broken.

The Josh bashing is getting a little tiresome. How about you try to be a little more constructive, and keep in mind that you are not owed total obedience from the developers. They're making their game, you decided to back that. (I assume) Listening and communicating with their fans is not something the Devs HAVE to do, that they choose to makes us lucky.

With an unlimted inventory you are really just removing the ability for you to build your character/party by finding items to improve your inventory. And you are also removing the need to make wise strategic choices about gear selection.

Why? having more items doesn't mean you can equip them all, you'll still be making choices. Edited February 6, 2013 by JFSOCC

[Helm]

 

I seriously don't get why the inventory system has to be changed so substantially. I have not even seen one complaint about the inventory system used in the IE games, but for some reason Josh still thinks that he MUST fix what isn't broken.

The Josh bashing is getting a little tiresome. How about you try to be a little more constructive, and keep in mind that you are not owed total obedience from the developers. They're making their game, you decided to back that. (I assume) Listening and communicating with their fans is not something the Devs HAVE to do, that they choose to makes us lucky.

You're whining about me naming the person/people who comes up with these unorthodox ideas is getting tiresome. Yes it was Josh (and Tim too I beleive) and? Am I not allowed to write that it was his idea? Ohhh, get a mod to ban me because I mentioned Josh in my post. Uhhhhh. lol

 

Anyway, if you want constructive criticisim about the mechanic then read the second paragraph of my post. You don't seem to be blind, so you must have seen it, even though you pretend to ignore it.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Helm

[Amentep]

I dont have a problem witht the proposed system mainly because I dont think it will affect me much (I will be a remorseless camping machine). I do have to admit however that I was pretty surprised by the reasoning for the mechanic change. I erroneously thought that looting every single object on the continent and thus breaking the "economy" was the degenerative gameplay, not the walking back and forth to do it. I honestly dont care how someone else plays their game and I even respect that if a player wants to do all that work of walking back and forth than they deserve to reap the monetary rewards.

 

Whats peoples thoughts on a weighless but slot based inventory system ala Diablo 3? It removes weight problems while still keeping the "haul" resonable.

 

I'm personally torn on the inventory system to be honest; weightless systems are okay, but - even understanding the system is an abstraction - they tend to favor trading up to more and more ridiculous things because they're the most value.  Your fighter is carrying their equipment and some healing potions and maybe a situational weapon or two...

 

...and then the dining room table and chairs from the estate of Lord Pompusarse because it'll fetch the most money. 

 

Inventory is an odd beast and I think personally I favor ones that are more "realistic" system than abstract.

 

Why? having more items doesn't mean you can equip them all, you'll still be making choices.

 

I'd argue that you're actually not really making a choice beyond situational choices.  Of course, arguably, this could be seen as aligning the choice a fighter makes (what armor, weapon, skill talents) to equip for an encounter more comparable to the choices a magic user would have (what armor, spells, spell talents).

[TRX850]

Let's say you "cleared" a dungeon level so that all enemies/factions were either dead or neutral. And there was a ton of loot lying around in the aftermath.

 

You could make 5 trips back to town to sell it all, because "the way back is now clear", which would take a fair bit of time. Or you could place it all in this wormhole-stash for now, and continue adventuring on the next dungeon level down.

 

If you could only interact with the stash once you'd cleared an area, it seems more and more like a simple time-saving device which allows the player to remain immersed in the game, while providing them with a DM-like gesture that they've earned the right to skip the 5 trips back to town because the way back is now safe, and the next dungeon level will still be waiting for them when they return.

[Amentep]

Let's say you "cleared" a dungeon level so that all enemies/factions were either dead or neutral. And there was a ton of loot lying around in the aftermath.

 

You could make 5 trips back to town to sell it all, because "the way back is now clear", which would take a fair bit of time. Or you could place it all in this wormhole-stash for now, and continue adventuring on the next dungeon level down.

 

If you could only interact with the stash once you'd cleared an area, it seems more and more like a simple time-saving device which allows the player to remain immersed in the game, while providing them with a DM-like gesture that they've earned the right to skip the 5 trips back to town because the way back is now safe, and the next dungeon level will still be waiting for them when they return.

 

Of course for me - and I'm willing to try this and see if its fun - the bigger problem is the limitations with in game economy that allows the player (or encourages the player) to sell every single item they find in a dungeon.  But this may be far to complex an issue to address in games currently.

[TRX850]

If for nothing else other than variety, I wouldn't mind seeing a town have different vendors for buying and selling different item types, just to spread the load of the economy.

 

Blacksmith --> Armour, weapons, and metal accoutrements like helmets, gauntlets etc.

Jewellers --> All gems and jewellery.

Leathersmith --> Belts, boots, gloves, cloaks etc.

Seamstress --> Robes, capes and other finery.

Hatter --> Hats and soft headwear.

Specialists --> Scrolls, wands, potions etc.

 

And so on.

[Amentep]

I think that's well and fine, I like more shop choices.

 

I'd argue that there should be some realistic limits to what you can sell back; how much money is on hand at each shop and so on.

 

if a small town blacksmith only sells 3-4 swords a year, why is she going to buy the 57 you got off the orc horde?  Where is she getting the money for them?  Why would the hatter buy a wand?  What would he do with it once he had it?  Where would the fletcher store the 10,0000 arrows you looted from the elven warband if she bought them?  If the leathersmith buys 50 wolf pelts today, why would he buy another 50 from you a week later? 

 

Mind you I still think having to have armor fitted before you can swap it to another character is a fine idea but I seem to recall many thinking it too much; but it forces a lot of choices on the player if there's a limit to the value of armour they can sell back and will cost them to refit it.  The player has to think about the inventory (and maybe, just maybe, not be encouraged to carry everything under the sun "just in case").

[TRX850]

Well it might provide a certain serendipity in game design then.

 

Maybe an arms dealer will buy all weapons and armour, continuously, to supply various factions which you eventually either ally with or fight.

 

There's also your Stronghold to consider. That, and presumably all your staff and service men and women will need to be outfitted.

 

As long as there is a plausible outlet for the sudden influx of gear that would ordinarily flood a low-level market, it should keep things interesting.

[moridin84]

So is the rift in opinions between people who find inventory management "exciting" and people who don't?

 

I'm of the latter and find the former baffling.

 

If for nothing else other than variety, I wouldn't mind seeing a town have different vendors for buying and selling different item types, just to spread the load of the economy.

 

Blacksmith --> Armour, weapons, and metal accoutrements like helmets, gauntlets etc.

Jewellers --> All gems and jewellery.

Leathersmith --> Belts, boots, gloves, cloaks etc.

Seamstress --> Robes, capes and other finery.

Hatter --> Hats and soft headwear.

Specialists --> Scrolls, wands, potions etc.

 

And so on.

 

It can be a bit of a hassle to run around to 12 different vendors though. Disastrous if you decide that only Hatters will buy hats and Blacksmiths armour/weapons/etc. 

Edited February 6, 2013 by moridin84

[TRX850]

So is the rift in opinions between people who find inventory management "exciting" and people who don't?

 

I'm of the latter and find the former baffling.

 

If for nothing else other than variety, I wouldn't mind seeing a town have different vendors for buying and selling different item types, just to spread the load of the economy.

 

Blacksmith --> Armour, weapons, and metal accoutrements like helmets, gauntlets etc.

Jewellers --> All gems and jewellery.

Leathersmith --> Belts, boots, gloves, cloaks etc.

Seamstress --> Robes, capes and other finery.

Hatter --> Hats and soft headwear.

Specialists --> Scrolls, wands, potions etc.

 

And so on.

 

It can be a bit of a hassle to run around to 12 different vendors though. Disastrous if you decide that only Hatters will buy hats and Blacksmiths armour/weapons/etc. 

 

Yes, I did consider the added running around. If they were all in the same general area, like a market place, it might not be so bad.  I mentioned it more because of the lengthy discussion on Economy from another thread.

 

Of course, you'd still have smaller villages or in-the-field merchants who would buy and sell all item types.

[Helm]

Specialized merchants are a good thing.

 

We even had specialized merchants in Skyrim... and many people don't even consider that game to be an RPG.

[TRX850]

If you split up the merchants into purveyors of bespoke item types (merchandise) in large cities, they might have individual side-quests for you too.

 

But if you combined them all into one merchant, you wouldn't necessarily have that option.

 

Either way, I can see why some players find it tedious to visit multiple merchants when they just want to "dump a load" and be done with it.

[JFSOCC]

If you split up the merchants into purveyors of bespoke item types (merchandise) in large cities, they might have individual side-quests for you too.

 

But if you combined them all into one merchant, you wouldn't necessarily have that option.

 

Either way, I can see why some players find it tedious to visit multiple merchants when they just want to "dump a load" and be done with it.

You can have your cake and eat it too. let specialists pay you more for the gear they're specialised in, and less for all the junk you "just want to get rid off"

[Lephys]

With an unlimted inventory you are really just removing the ability for you to build your character/party by finding items to improve your inventory. And you are also removing the need to make wise strategic choices about gear selection.

 

 

An unlimited inventory would do that, but we'll only have an unlimited portion of an inventory. The finite portions (that are accessible during combat/between restings) can still be upgraded, and still provide the same strategic choices for gear selection, as they don't affect the amount of loot or specific loot that is available to even be picked up or not picked up.

[TrashMan]

 

A proper RPG shouldn't encourage illogical out-of-character behavior.

 

Carrying everything, robbing everyone, breaking into houses, checking dumpsters - that is NOT how you'd expect a normal human to behave.

Yet the game enforces and rewards such behavior.

 

 

Going into a dungeon and HAVING to choose what to take and what to leave is how it should be.

I am talking about hostile territories like dungeons which comprise 90% percent of such game, not peaceful towns. Anyway a party would comprise at least one thief and one typical fighter/barbarian, so as a general consensus the party could opt to do battle as much as possible. It's quite realistic.

 

 

Disagree.

 

A thief wouldn't rush into battle just to rob a corpse of a few coppers. It ain't worth it. A thief also wouldn't pick up every single piece of scrap to sell it.

Barbarians are not stupid either. They wouldn't burden themselves with unnecessary crap.

 

When deep in enemy territory, you do scavenge IF NECESSARY.

But you don't pick up 20 swords and carry them with you to sell later.

 

"Trash" items have no purpose to boot - other than for flavor. I mean, how pathetic must your hero be to collect 100 pieces of old, smelly rags just to sell them for 1 silver?