The End of America (and Western World)

[Malcador]

Yeah, nothing confirmed as of yet.  Sadly they're using secure channels so the scanner stream I'm listening to is missing.

[Zoraptor]

That's just silly. Nobody cheers for troops (or anyone else) who shoot innocent people on purpose, even when it's an accident they still catch a lot of flak for it.

You'd be surprised. A lot of people spend a lot of time both then and now justifying events like My Lai (eg the Lt in command was consistently cheered by some) or IranAir655 (big celebrations on return, medals awarded for what was basically disobeying orders and being monumentally moronic) or that family who got murdered in Iraq to cover up their daughter getting raped; and there are plenty of people who think the people involved were heroes who have been unfairly persecuted or try and shift the blame in any way possible. For some the colours being worn are far more important than what the person wearing them does, whether it be something trivial like sport ("my team never cheats, only their opponents do!") or something more serious. As always people don't like bad stuff being associated with themselves nor being wrong so will tend to believe anything that shows a positive rather than negative slant, it's just a part of human nature. Edited February 13, 2013 by Zoraptor

[NOK222]

No confirmation yet, but likely dead. 

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/125027919/Joe-Jones-Manifesto A manifesto by a retired cop. Not donner

Edited February 13, 2013 by NKKKK

[Malcador]

Well lockdown on nearby camps is released, so...I'm guessing he's dead.

[Volourn]

 He doesn't sound evil. Donner is. So is the LAP dickheads who murdered the innocent in pursuit of their target.

 

If the story is true, and Donner is dead, he's not exactly the Rambo  people and he were bragging about. L0L

[ShadySands]

I knew I should have said no reasonable person. It's not that I don't think that it never happens, it's that I don't think it is the prevalent belief in most cases.

[Malcador]

Well looks like the LAPD can go back to looking like solving little people's crimes now that he's dead.

[NOK222]

I really hope that things change though. But they probably wont. 

[Malcador]

I really hope that things change though. But they probably wont. 

 

Heh, why would they ? Ravings of a mad man, no basis in reality. 

[NOK222]

 

I really hope that things change though. But they probably wont. 

 

Heh, why would they ? Ravings of a mad man, no basis in reality. 

Yup, just some crazy negro veteran. Nothing to see here guys, move on. 

[Luridis]

There is a difference between saying that someone is innocent and saying we need to understand why it happened, I'm with the latter. I can't judge him because I'm not there, wasn't involved, and didn't sit on a would-be jury.

 

What I am saying is making a summary judgement to "kill the bad man" is not how we find out what led to this... There is more value in preventing what creates these messes than just cleaning them up afterward. I just think that, "how did it come to this?" is a really good effing question because, if we knew that answer, there might be a whole lot less corpses now.

[NOK222]

We know the answer though, when murders happen, people ask why? This man clearly expressed the reasons why he was going to do what he was going to do in his manifesto. Now that he's dead gone, how about we make sure this kind of **** that stemmed from police abuse doesn't happen again?

Edited February 13, 2013 by NKKKK

[Volourn]

he's a scumbag murder who killed two innocents in cold blood. He's evil and I don't feel sorry for him and the excusing of his evilness is disgusting. This doesn't change the fact that LAPD needs to better and needs to face punishment for their evilness as well. FRY THEM ALL.

 

It's sad that the people who are pro Donner don't care one bit about his victims but go on and on about the evils of the LAPD. Why does the evils cummery of the LAPD excuse the murder of two people? DISGUSTING.

[Malcador]

Who's pro-Dorner here?  I'm not keen on him just offing people, even LAPD officers.  Still, if a psychopath tells you 2+2 =4 it doesn't mean it's not true.  It's the same way people mention he killed two people as an excuse for the LAPD being pansies and panicking shooting at 3 people.

[Volourn]

"It's the same way people mention he killed two people as an excuse for
the LAPD being pansies and panicking shooting at 3 people."
 

Whoa re thes epeople? I willt alks mack to them too.

 

There are people in this thread who have defended Donner and have blamed others for his evil actions.

 

If you shot my wife, I would NOT be in my right to shoot yours. It would be udnerstandable if I shot you, but your wife would be innocent. And, it woudl be EVIL for me to target her. PERIOD.

[BruceVC]

There is absolutely no justification for someone to want to start killing random people even if he was a victim of racism. Imagine a world where every time we felt aggrieved we got a gun and  went out killing people who were or weren't associated with the apparent bad treatment. Society would fall apart

 

I have been reading the timelines on this whole Dorner saga, IMO he is a coward. His first victims were the daughter and fiancé of the guy who represented him when he lost his termination appeal in the LAPD. Seriously, why target the guys daughter if you have an issue with him? It reminds me of suicide bombers, they have issues with the military and political decisions of countries but they are quite happy to kill people that may have nothing to do with those decisions purely because they are soft targets. If you have an issue with the LAPD and are prepared to kill people at least get your guns and bullet proof vest and walk into a police station and start shooting and make a stand. But why the guys daughter, he knew this would have the most hurtful and permanent cconsequences and she was an easy target, yeah big man shooting a defenseless women and man

 

There is no reasonable modern country or military who would award someone for killing a person who has nothing to do with the military objective so can we stop trying to justify his actions with spurious comments like " in another time he would be a hero", it make no sense and it is  not applicable to his rampage

 

Finally as I mentioned in other posts I live in a country that is relatively more violent than most countries in the world, we have about 50 murders a day and about 360 rapes a day, these are just some true statistics so you get the picture. We have a large police force. There are many cases of police corruption and police committing crimes. However it does not represent the overall police force who are committed and hard working. Everyday our police put there lives on the line and go to work knowing that day could be there last. We respect and admire our police immimmensely. People tend to lambaste the police yet they are the first people they call when there lives are threatened. Dorners actions don't represent the state of the LAPD, its silly and unfair to label the entire LAPD or try to find some reason for his unacceptable actions due to the LAPD

 

Last point, these events highlight the sickness I see in certain aspects of the US society. Apparently there are websites that consider this guy a hero. I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain how anyone can consider the violent actions of a mentally unbalanced person as heroic? When did killing innocent people and killing police officers make you someone to admire?

Edited February 13, 2013 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

Lots of people dislike authority or police.  The LAPD doesn't exactly have a stellar public image, or at least to some. So Dorner's seen as sticking it to them. That and he's pushed them to hilarious examples of incompetence such as shooting innocents or actually stating that he's crippled them as they dedicated so many resources to hunting him that they can't do their day to day jobs - nice proof that quote from Blade Runner is true for them "If you're not cop, you're little people". 

[BruceVC]

Lots of people dislike authority or police.  The LAPD doesn't exactly have a stellar public image, or at least to some. So Dorner's seen as sticking it to them. That and he's pushed them to hilarious examples of incompetence such as shooting innocents or actually stating that he's crippled them as they dedicated so many resources to hunting him that they can't do their day to day jobs - nice proof that quote from Blade Runner is true for them "If you're not cop, you're little people". 

 I see what you are saying. I don't agree with the logic but I see the reason, its always makes me laugh when you realize the  irony. People are opposed to authority yet they live and prosper in societies built on the same authority. It reminds of that pointless movement " Occupy Wall Street", they were opposed to banks and institutions that "enslaved" them yet used there Iphones, Ipads and other devices to get there message across and gain support.

 

So people are fine to use the same structures when it suits them but claim to be "bitterly against them"

 

[Zoraptor]

Last point, these events highlight the sickness I see in certain aspects of the US society. Apparently there are websites that consider this guy a hero. I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain how anyone can consider the violent actions of a mentally unbalanced person as heroic? When did killing innocent people and killing police officers make you someone to admire?

The US has a history of considering outlaws as heroes (or 'heroes' at least)- Billy the Kid, Jesse James, John Dillinger, Bonnie & Clyde- even someone theoretically a good guy like Wyatt Earp is pretty much accepted to have outright murdered people after his brother (?) got killed. That's a historic and cultural factor. Really though, people just tend to excuse a lot of stuff done by people if they happen to agree with at least part of what they say, it's hardly a phenomenon limited to the US.

 

And as Malcador says, the LAPD do not have a great reputation. Even during this manhunt they managed to riddle a car with bullets, fortunately not actually managing to kill the occupants, thinking the car was Dorner's. Kind of understandable in theory, but in practice it was the wrong colour, the wrong make, and driven by a little old asian lady with her little middle aged daughter rather than a rather large black guy.

[Osvir]

Came across this on my Facebook feed, seems relevant to this thread:

Edited February 13, 2013 by Osvir

[Luridis]

I didn't defend him, or his actions. I said we need to find out what causes this instead of just writing off the perpetrators once it has begun. But then, I'm no stranger to people on the internet not listening at all, putting words in others' mouths, generalizing their statements and then treating the very people asking questions as if they'd been involved in the actions in question. In the end, such uneven temperaments are what brings about one's own demise, or the demise of the society that endorses the behavior.

 

Good & evil or human nature?

 

(Video is well done, but violent.)

 

[Volourn]

Defending cold blooded murderers is what brings down the moral fibre of a human being so whya re you defending him?

[HoonDing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbh6My_bhnU

[BruceVC]

I didn't defend him, or his actions. I said we need to find out what causes this instead of just writing off the perpetrators once it has begun. But then, I'm no stranger to people on the internet not listening at all, putting words in others' mouths, generalizing their statements and then treating the very people asking questions as if they'd been involved in the actions in question. In the end, such uneven temperaments are what brings about one's own demise, or the demise of the society that endorses the behavior.

 

Good & evil or human nature?

 

(Video is well done, but violent.)

 

 

 

Defending cold blooded murderers is what brings down the moral fibre of a human being so whya re you defending him?

 

Its unusual but I agree with Volourn on this point, its irrelevant what caused it once he killed the daughter and her fiancé of the guy that failed to get him to keep his job. He lost any sympathy and moral high ground the moment he did this. Its like saying " lets try understand the causes of 9\11 because maybe it  makes the attack okay". We know why 9\11 was perpetuated and  the reasons don't justify what Al-Qaeda did( this is an example, I am not saying you said this). What do you need to understand about  a cowardly murder? His manifesto is clear and there for you to read, so I don't get why you think we need to analyze his reasons anymore than we already do? He was a mentally unbalanced individual who posed a serious threat to society. He needs to be arrested or killed. Its not complicated.

Edited February 13, 2013 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

Funny how because he's hunting police and scaring them he's a terrorist now, heh. I don't see much of an issue with people assuming the police are crooked or a gang unto themselves but still needing the services their taxes pay for. You don't have to admire or worship service workers doing their job for you.

 

Also, why are you all on Luridis for defending him ? Just because he's not posting giant diatribes of outrage doesn't mark him as one of those "RIP CHOCOLATE RAMBO" people - why he ended up like this is a fair question. I doubt anyone will ask with any serious intent to find an answer though.