Priests and undead?

[Atreides]

Are there any undead in PE at all? Why shoulc they be, to start with - do they fit into the world?

Could be calling back souls that haven't been reincarnated and cramming them into "objects" - bodies, constructs, artifacts. The confused/fractured ones could have low cognitive processes. The smarter or more aware ones could be sources of information, but what's their incentive to cooperate?

[Sacred_Path]

I think the reason that undead are particularly singled out for Clerics does have some worthwhile reasoning behind it but setting wise and gameplay wise. Which isn't to say I think it is necessary, but more that I see why they've done it in the past. The thing about undead in D&D is that they tend to be some of the tougher standard enemies you are likely to face in a campaign - particularly because their undeadiness entirely negates rogues, often resists various schools of magic and damage reduction and immunity to criticals even makes them proportionally tougher for the "smashy" classes than an equivical levelled orc or whatever. As clerics don't really specialise with in offensive combat on an average basis, matching up a fairly broad tough type of enemies with a thematically matching class is a nice mix.

 

However, I can see why not everyone would want that, so as a compromise, perhaps if it became a class power for specific churches. If you had a selection churches and each gained a special power, one could have turn undead, one a version of lay on hands, one that had some sort of fancy auras, one that just made them far better in combat etc you'd end up with a system where choosing which religion your protagonist belonged to was far more important in what your character could do.

 

It makes as much sense as the (1E?) ranger's bonus against giants - which isn't much. It's an arbitrary bonus to make a class stand out/ be more viable as a choice/ a tad more useful.

 

Giving a bonus against undead/ for creating undead to certain cults is something I could warm to, not because it's a great idea or the game world calls for it but because I like having priests of different faiths playing a bit different from each other.

[JFSOCC]

priests can consecrate the ground to lay deadly traps for undead, build funnels, walls that undead can't cross and weaken those that can.

I've actually always thought that the ability against undead is a little too narrow. (unless you populate the game with undead up the wazoo)

So how about that priests are just particularly good against anything they consider to be unnatural?

[Bill Gates' Son]

After the latest cool update (#36), I began to wonder what the role of priests should be with regard to undead. It's traditional, and significant, for clerics in D&D to have a turn undead capability (or rebuke undead with 3e). But is that necessarily relevant for the PE setting? Should priests be required to cast spells to repel or command undead? Or should that ability be restricted to wizards? Perhaps the ability to manipulate the undead should be limited to priests of certain deities? Maybe a turn undead-like ability should be weakened somewhat, starting with a "hinder undead"-like ability that just makes the walking dead more hesitant to attack (for an attack/damage penalty)?

 

What do you think?

 

Why would they "command undead"? Priests aren't necromancers, they're the opposite. They're the antithesis of necromancers. Priests should be consecrating the defiled corpses perverted by necromancy, or attempting to save the souls enslaved by necromancers if that's how necromancy works in a given context.

 

I don't know much about priest in PE, but I'm pretty sure clerics had the ability to control and create the undead in D&D. Some evil clerics were basically divine necromancers depending on their skills and domains that they picked. I'm assuming their going to based Priest from this game off the clerics from D&D 3 and 4.

 

They're already said that Priests would be more like a D&D Paladin.

 

Weren't D&D paladins clerics with less spells anyway? That's basically what I remember.

 

Only if all you focused on were spells and spells only, and even then it's not correct.

 

http://www.d20srd.or...ses/paladin.htm

 

http://www.d20srd.or...sses/cleric.htm

 

http://www.d20srd.or...ses/fighter.htm

 

I was being sarcastic. I meant that Paladin weren't anything special in D&D. I felt Clerics did everything better than them besides the ability to used Martial weapons from the start and the use of holy avenger.

Edited December 25, 2012 by Bill Gates' Son

[Somna]

[...]

I was being sarcastic. I meant that Paladin weren't anything special in D&D. I felt Clerics did everything better than them besides the ability to used Martial weapons from the start and the use of holy avenger.

 

And the lower THAC0 or better BAB (depending on version), and the better saving throws via Divine Grace in 3rd ed onwards. Clearly you weren't thinking like a Fighter!

 

Pathfinder's take on the D&D Paladin seems a little bit more interesting though, in making them more unique.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Many things within the Project: Eternity setting will need defined before these questions can be answered.

• What is a soul and what is its role?
  
• Do souls grant sentience?
  
• Do souls animate whatever they inhabit?
  
• Are souls necessary for life?
  
• What is undeath?
  
• Are gods a passive or active force over life & death?
  
• Do all gods have dominion over life & death?
  
• What is the role of a priest?
  
• How potent are the abilities of a priest?
  
• Is there a distinction between Divine & Arcane magic?
  

The list continues. Frankly, I would like to see Wizards have as much ability to manipulate the undead as priests. While the distinctions between Divine & Arcane magic within D&D worked well and served to differntiate the powers of wizards and clerics, I prefer magic = magic. Gods tap the same font as mortals, just more adeptly.

[Osvir]

Just thoughts.

 

What is a soul and what is its role?

 

The soul is the persona, the Ego, the inner spirit or whatnot. Spiritualistic fluff, abstract, parallel-realm-ish, the underworld and the overworld, "Oneness". Connection and coincidence. Its role could be that Gods fiddle with it as they see fit and for a purpose, whilst some "earthlings" fight it, the "Gods" plan, some abuse it, some respect it. "The Grand Device".

 

Do souls grant sentience?

 

Yes.

 

Do souls animate whatever they inhabit?

 

Yes and no. Souls are everywhere all around, the "spirit". Druids, in my opinion, probably knows most truly what the "Soul" really is. They don't necessarily animate objects, but they are still there. "Soul of the Rock". A stone has a soul, Earth has soul, which is why it can be transformed into magical golems.

 

Are souls necessary for life?

 

Yes. Some form of it. Life is Death and Death is Life. Everything that has an ending has a new beginning. Dying in a "Body" doesn't necessarily mean that the "Soul" is dead.

 

What is undeath?

 

Undeath is the trapping of souls in vessels, which requires a second source (Necromancer) to utilize. Of course, sometimes lost powerful souls (such as a Wizard) can retain their existence and achieving immortality to become a Lich. In rare cases some with a great will still lingers left in the body, re-animating it (meaning that someone died rose up because he didn't quite feel he was finished with his life. So in a sense his body is dead, but his soul still lives on).

 

Are gods a passive or active force over life & death?

 

Active and passive.

 

Do all gods have dominion over life & death?

 

No. Could they all achieve it? Yes. Hades is a God of the Underworld, his purpose is to Govern the Dead, but he also tries to Govern the Living by his own schemes.

 

What is the role of a priest?

 

How does Priests interact with Souls Ideologically/Philosophically?

 

How potent are the abilities of a priest?

 

How does Priests interact with Souls Physically?

 

Is there a distinction between Divine & Arcane magic?

 

The power of the Priest should lie in how they interact with the Souls physically+ philosophy. Is the Priests abilities and beliefs against the Undeads favor? Does the Priest cast words of "Light" or like an "Excorsist" banishing the spirits (or releasing them) from the Undead vessel? In that case it fits. But if Priests use their abilities somehow differently~I don't know.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Osvir

[Frenetic Pony]

Why just follow D&D lore, which is what is being talked about here, down the rabbit hole?

 

 

Ok, so souls exist, they're things, they're semi understood. What are the undead? The undead are, assumedly, soulles bodies. There's something a slight bit different anyway. So who commands souless bodies? Not people who are commanding souls, because the undead don't have any.

 

So any class with say, healing spells, should be able to command the undead yeah? Imagine they're brought to life by the same sort of healing magic, soulless abominations and whatnot. But wait, there isn't healing magic! So who can command the undead, is there even undead at all? Maybe not! Why grab ALL the cliches if you don't have to after all?

 

So maybe undead are... different than soulless monsters? Maybe they're bodies with the souls of bad whatevers in them. Demons, monsters, what have you! So then, whatever class has magic that can manipulate other souls can then manipulate the undead. I'd say, call it binding a soul of some evil thing to a soulless body and there you are, a monster thing. But since it's bound the bond can be weakened or broken or commanded or etc.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Frenetic Pony

[Osvir]

Here is some Zombie history from Haiti on Wikipedia

[.Leif.]

I'd say let abilities relating to undead be mostly restricted to folks who follow a God or ethos especially linked to Undead. If your God is one of those that strongly opposes Necromancy and Undeath, you should get strong combat bonuses and passive resistances. If your Deity commands you to honor your unliving ancestors through word and deed might be able to conjure great grandfather so-and-so. I feel the Roguelike Stone-Soup handles this subject rather well. Your foul Lord may demand that you let no enemy corpse go to waste, raising all you slay as mindless servants. Let Priests (and Druids) be well enough balanced for whatever specialty to make divergent paths rewarding. The Pathfinder Paladin approach is the appropriate.

 

This isn't Dungeons and Dragons (It's D&D inspired). Let's de-couple command/turn undead from the Priest class and make it a more powerful specialty ability.

[rjshae]

The association of clerics with laying the dead to rest has been around long before D&D came along. If you "de-couple" that from the priest class, you're basically removing a large part of why you even need a clerical profession.

[Cryticus]

I wonder if this isn't sligthly ridicluose idea of mine , but here it goes, what about making necromancy in game world varaint of cleric magic rather than arcane ? I say that because if you think about it you could make cleric in to something like this.

 

Priest

Focused on defense abilites,

Specialised in white magic ( or white necromancy I liked that in Arcanum )

can turn( destroy) undead or/and maybe summon non-corporal undead like ghosts, and spectres.

 

Necromancer

focused on offensive abilites

specialised in black necromancy

can take control of undead or/and summon corporal undead like zombies and skeletons.

 

Bascily two ways cleric can go, with necromancy being a divine magic rathern than arcane as usuall in D&D

Edited December 30, 2012 by Cryticus

[rjshae]

^^^^

That's reasonable. However, the way that evil clerics are often portrayed is having truck with demonic forces: devils, demons, and the like. Likewise, other clerics can provide some protection from diabolism. It might make sense for evil priests to at least be able to co-exist with evil spirits like the undead and demons; not necessarily controlling them, but being able to pass through them unharmed. That might be less so for intelligent evil spirits, but at least these might recognize evil clerics as one of their own.

[.Leif.]

If we can find Cryticus's post reasonable, what other sub-types of priest could we find agreeable? Could there be an elementalist sub-type of cleric? A paragon of fire of water or what-have-you and able to not provoke the wrath of elemental creatures.

 

What sort of non-combat subtypes could be useful for a cleric? Specializing in healing is what the class is often known for anyhow so I'll take that as a given. Could a cleric specialize in concepts like order versus chaos or light versus dark?

 

I am keenly interested in what happens to the Cleric class. Seeing a BG2 style subclasses for the cleric would really add replay-value to the class rather than simply being a necessity in the group merely because you can heal

Edited January 2, 2013 by .Leif.

[rjshae]

^^^^

They could probably begin with sub-partitioning the priest spell set. I wouldn't mind seeing a modest set of general purpose priest spells and a larger set of deity rituals; every priest gets all of the general spells, but the deity rituals are only granted to followers of specific subsets of the deities. (Thus, say, a power of the beast ritual may only be available to followers of deities of monsters, strength, murder, and destruction.) This approach does have the drawback of limiting a priest's spell selection, but who uses all of the available spells anyway?

Edited January 2, 2013 by rjshae