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Power of classes (Realism vs. Filling unlimited power)


Power of Classes  

187 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think about limited power for classes in eternity ?

    • Everywon must hve supernatural and greatpower (especially player)
    • Some classes shoud have great power but not all of them
    • Only few classes shud have big power, but most of them shoud be t "normal" level
    • Everywons power must be as realistic as possible (allmost all of them shoud be normal or week)
    • Everywon must be week
    • Other
    • I don't care ... wheres my cheesburger ?!
  2. 2. What do you think about power limits in eternity ?

    • NO limits ( 1 spell or hit and whole village becomes smoking ruins and crater
    • With some limits but not to big ( not 1 hit dragon can be killed but if you put 7 dragon shoud lie dead))
    • Some reasonable limits (dragons not killed by 1 hit blows, somehimes even 150 hits don't do much demage)
    • Fully limited (even fighting week enemys is a challenge)
    • other
    • Don't care ...
  3. 3. What do you think about adding some suernatural abilytys to other classes than spellcasters ?

    • Yes ( some type of magic for fighters and others)
    • No (magic is only for mages)
    • I don't care....


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On Realism:
What is realistic to happen in P:E? Can a character get the strength to lift mountains, is the average person super strong or weaker, more human? Mortality is a Big Business in P:E so I expect people to be fragile, that should go for the party as well (the issue: in my opinion, when the game says that there is mortality and you suddenly act as if you are a Half-God destroying everything in your path).

However! It would be awesome to become a Half-God and destroy everything in your path, but that should be towards end-game and enemies at that point should or could also be Half-Gods (at least bosses).

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Sarcasm is lost on you I see.

 

No, what I propose/want isn't that much different than an IE game.

 

Apparently reading comprehension is lost on you.

 

Of coruse, I can see how it is a MASSIVE difference to you - yet all the other things Chris confirmed as being different are AOK?

 

Well they did not propose something that almost the opposite of what was in the average IE game and then claim it "wasn't much different" than what was in the average IE game. They were quite upfront when they proposed something different and made no such claim, but you did.

 

Point me to one IE game where HP is not tied to level or class. Show me one that does not have a focus on "stat inflation". You can't, because all of them had HP tied to level and class and all of them focused on "stat inflation". Your proposal is not similar to what was done in IE games.

 

Seriously, do you have any reason to object other than "it's not like in the old IE game"? Anything? Any PROPER argument?

Strawman. I simply pointed out that what you proposed was not in ANY IE game. I have never objected to a mechanic because it was not exactly the same as in the IE games. Do everyone a favor and actually try reading before you start building strawmen.

 

As for the mechanics you proposed, they would not work in a high fantasy setting where magic/supernatural abilities are very commonplace. Like the PE setting for instance.

 

Static HP would not work out side of an extremely low power level game with no/extremely limited magic/supernatural abilities. In PE, you would end up with characters that either die too quickly and easily at high level, or extremely tedious low level combat that consists of hitting each other with swords for half an hour till someone drops dead.

 

Focusing on skills and feats with no "stat inflation" would not work outside a low power game(which PE will NOT be) it does not allow for characters to get harder to hit or resist magic better(increasing attack and saving throw ARE "stat inflation").

 

The mechanics you want would fit in a low power game, but PE is not that game, and will not be that game. If you want a game like that may I suggest Age of Decadence? Perhaps you would like to kickstart your own game in a low power setting?

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlsnot

"You need to be careful, lest I write another ten page essay on mythology and how it relates to Sailor Moon." - majestic

"I won't say what just in case KaineParker is reading" - Bartimaeus

"Oh no! Is there super secret ending as well? I don’t care." - Wormerine

"Get some poor minorities, that keeps WASPs away easy." - Malcador

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This is kind of an odd poll because most people aren't sure of how the gameplay is going to go. Like here's the gameplays to match how much power and player has.

 

Fallout 1&2: moderate power throughout the entire game as enemies and situations got harder along with the characters progression. enemies would be in groups of 1-8 at a time. You could only kill 3 per turn max no matter how powerful you were. You could take quite a few hits and kill npc's in one hit or twenty. 

 

Dynasty warriors: Hilariously powerful, kill thousands of scrub enemies at a time and decimate the battle field. Could easily kill 8 enemies at a time with one combo but there are hundreds of enemies to kill within your field of vision. 

 

Dark Souls: The most interesting play style (in my opinion) that isn't replicated often. Even the first level enemies can still kill you at maxed out 'level/gear'. Your damage output and skill level makes them less of a threat later on because the enemies are killed quickly. Although only 2-3 enemies come at you at any one time. 

 

So the factors for combat are; Damage output, hitpoint total, number of enemies per combat sequence, highest number killed with one action, speed of combat, how much environment or movement is required to win a fight.

 

If you bulldoze your problems down you've lost the 'game' of maintaining interest. If each fight is a suitable but possible challenge that still makes the player think he has gained more power then your keeping that interest. If you wanna make a high power player character game, ya either have really tactical enemies, tons of enemies or enemies as high powered as you, rapid combat speed, or very very entertaining combat animations/kill scenes.  

 

Disclaimer: Just my opinion.

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Apparently reading comprehension is lost on you.

 

Well they did not propose something that almost the opposite of what was in the average IE game and then claim it "wasn't much different" than what was in the average IE game. They were quite upfront when they proposed something different and made no such claim, but you did.

 

Well, someone here is lost and it isn't me.

 

No, what I propose ISN'T very different from a standard. It's a change in the growth of ONE variable.

 

 

 

 

Point me to one IE game where HP is not tied to level or class. Show me one that does not have a focus on "stat inflation". You can't, because all of them had HP tied to level and class and all of them focused on "stat inflation". Your proposal is not similar to what was done in IE games.

 

It is similar, because HP is still there and all otehr stats and practicly everything else is and works the same.

Change in one variable DOES NOT constitute a "huge difference".

 

And I couldn't give a rats ass if something liek that wasn't there in every other IE game. It is you who hold them up as some holy Grail of perfection. Not me.

 

 

 

Strawman. I simply pointed out that what you proposed was not in ANY IE game. I have never objected to a mechanic because it was not exactly the same as in the IE games. Do everyone a favor and actually try reading before you start building strawmen.

 

You object agaisnt it on the notion that is isn't EXACTLY like a IE game.

So you are talling me that you are actively against it on the account of semantics?

You AE objecting to it and you gave no otehr reason other than "it's wasn't in a IE game".

 

 

 

As for the mechanics you proposed, they would not work in a high fantasy setting where magic/supernatural abilities are very commonplace. Like the PE setting for instance.

 

Static HP would not work out side of an extremely low power level game with no/extremely limited magic/supernatural abilities. In PE, you would end up with characters that either die too quickly and easily at high level, or extremely tedious low level combat that consists of hitting each other with swords for half an hour till someone drops dead.

 

Yes, it would work.

It's not my fault you are totaly incompetent at balancing and/or lack any and all immagination.

 

 

 

Focusing on skills and feats with no "stat inflation" would not work outside a low power game(which PE will NOT be) it does not allow for characters to get harder to hit or resist magic better(increasing attack and saving throw ARE "stat inflation").

 

1) There is a difference between STAT INCREASE and STAT INFLATION. I don't recall ever saiyng I'm again any stat increasing at all.

2) what are Feats other than specific bonuses (circumstantial stat increases)

 

 

You keep saying "it wouldn't work" without anything to back it up other than your own fears and limited vision. You seem incapable of thinking outside the box or imagining any experience other tha na perfect IE copy. And you seem to think there is only ONE way something could be done and that High Fantasy means massive power scales. That's not what defines high fantasy mate.

 

No, it would work and it can work and it DID work.

Edited by TrashMan

* YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *

Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!

 

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This is kind of an odd poll because most people aren't sure of how the gameplay is going to go. Like here's the gameplays to match how much power and player has.

 

Fallout 1&2: moderate power throughout the entire game as enemies and situations got harder along with the characters progression. enemies would be in groups of 1-8 at a time. You could only kill 3 per turn max no matter how powerful you were. You could take quite a few hits and kill npc's in one hit or twenty. 

 

Dynasty warriors: Hilariously powerful, kill thousands of scrub enemies at a time and decimate the battle field. Could easily kill 8 enemies at a time with one combo but there are hundreds of enemies to kill within your field of vision. 

 

Dark Souls: The most interesting play style (in my opinion) that isn't replicated often. Even the first level enemies can still kill you at maxed out 'level/gear'. Your damage output and skill level makes them less of a threat later on because the enemies are killed quickly. Although only 2-3 enemies come at you at any one time. 

 

So the factors for combat are; Damage output, hitpoint total, number of enemies per combat sequence, highest number killed with one action, speed of combat, how much environment or movement is required to win a fight.

 

If you bulldoze your problems down you've lost the 'game' of maintaining interest. If each fight is a suitable but possible challenge that still makes the player think he has gained more power then your keeping that interest. If you wanna make a high power player character game, ya either have really tactical enemies, tons of enemies or enemies as high powered as you, rapid combat speed, or very very entertaining combat animations/kill scenes.  

 

Disclaimer: Just my opinion.

sounds like dark souls has the same power level as fallout, even weak enemies are a threat at higher levels, though much less so due to the ability to kill them easy.  i had figured this to be the 'realistic' power levels.

 

as a side note that isn't too relevant to your point, dynasty warriors can't have hundreds of characters on screen, so the most you can kill is 20-30 with one hit depending on which game you have.

Edited by jamoecw
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No, what I propose ISN'T very different from a standard. It's a change in the growth of ONE variable.

What you are proposing is completely changing how HP is calculated and grows and focusing more on feats and skills than "stat inflation". By your reasoning EVERY game that has HP isn't that different from the average IE game.

 

 

>It is similar, because HP is still there and all otehr stats and practicly everything else is and works the same.

Change in one variable DOES NOT constitute a "huge difference".

You aren't changing one variable, you are changing the equation for HP and removing common HP growth.

 

X=Level, Y=Class HD, Z=CON, B=Constant base(feats, random bonus to HP)

 

IE system: HP= X(Y+Z)+B

 

Your proposal: HP=B(Z) or HP=B+Z

 

Your system is almost completely static, while IE is level determinate. That is a big difference.

>And I couldn't give a rats ass if something liek that wasn't there in every other IE game. It is you who hold them up as some holy Grail of perfection. Not me.

Strawman. I have not ever claimed that several enjoyable games with deeply flawed mechanics are a "Holy Grail of perfection". I have pointed out that you claiming your proposals are "not that much different from what was in the average IE game" is false.

 

1.You object agaisnt it on the notion that is isn't EXACTLY like a IE game.

2.So you are talling me that you are actively against it on the account of semantics?

3.You AE objecting to it and you gave no otehr reason other than "it's wasn't in a IE game".

1.I pointed out that it was not similar to the IE games, I objected to it for other reasons.

2.I'm telling you that your statement that the mechanics you proposed were no that much different from the IE games is false.

3.I did not object because "it wasn't in a IE game". I pointed out that it was dissimilar to what was in the IE games, contrary to your claims. I objected because the proposed mechanics would not work in the PE setting.

 

Yes, it would work.

It's not my fault you are totaly incompetent at balancing and/or lack any and all immagination.

You're right, I don't have any "immagination". I do however have quite a bit of IMAGINATION, and imagining a static HP system in a high power game(like PE) is not pretty. You would either make low-level combat incredibly tedious, make high-level combat incredibly unbalanced, or rely on "Resist X damage" talents or equipment.

 

BTW, if you call someone totally incompetent, it usually helps to spell "totally" correctly.

1) There is a difference between STAT INCREASE and STAT INFLATION. I don't recall ever saiyng I'm again any stat increasing at all.

2) what are Feats other than specific bonuses (circumstantial stat increases)

1.Stat Increase=Stat Inflation. "Inflation" literally means "increasing".

2.Special Abilities, Weapon Proficiencies, and new ways to utilize non-combat skills.

 

 

1.You keep saying "it wouldn't work" without anything to back it up other than your own fears and limited vision.

2.You seem incapable of thinking outside the box or imagining any experience other tha na perfect IE copy.

3.And you seem to think there is only ONE way something could be done and that High Fantasy means massive power scales. That's not what defines high fantasy mate.

4.No, it would work and it can work and it DID work.

1.You keep saying it would work without showing us a game(with powerful magic) where it did work.

2.When did I say I wanted "tha na perfect IE copy"?

3.No, I said that in the PE setting where supernatural abilities/magic are extremely common means high power scales. Not that "Every high fantasy setting means high power scales".

4.In what game? Did that game have magic equivalent to 6-th level D&D spells? In that game did virtually every character possess soul powers?

Edited by KaineParker

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlsnot

"You need to be careful, lest I write another ten page essay on mythology and how it relates to Sailor Moon." - majestic

"I won't say what just in case KaineParker is reading" - Bartimaeus

"Oh no! Is there super secret ending as well? I don’t care." - Wormerine

"Get some poor minorities, that keeps WASPs away easy." - Malcador

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What you are proposing is completely changing how HP is calculated and grows and focusing more on feats and skills than "stat inflation". By your reasoning EVERY game that has HP isn't that different from the average IE game.

 

 You aren't changing one variable, you are changing the equation for HP and removing common HP growth.

 

X=Level, Y=Class HD, Z=CON, B=Constant base(feats, random bonus to HP)

 

IE system: HP= X(Y+Z)+B

 

Your proposal: HP=B(Z) or HP=B+Z

 

Your system is almost completely static, while IE is level determinate. That is a big difference.

 

No, it's not completely static. In some ways it's more flexible. HP as it was has NO LOGICAL justification anymore. It makes no sense.

 

All the things that used to be part of HP (dodge, armor, parry, defense) were outsorced to separate variables. Tehre is no need to treat HP like before, because what it logicly represents isn't the same. The mathematical model changed, new variables were added.

It's just there to give a cheap and fake illusion of power to suer-special snowflakes.

 

 

I have pointed out that you claiming your proposals are "not that much different from what was in the average IE game" is false.

 

Our definition of different is different.

I disagree and will continue to disagree and any further discussion about it is pointless. Drop it.

 

 

 

You would either make low-level combat incredibly tedious, make high-level combat incredibly unbalanced, or rely on "Resist X damage" talents or equipment.

 

So you do lack imagination, because you cannot phantom any different kind of experience or representation of power.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

If games that have no (or tiny) stat increases can make you feel more powerfull as the game progresses and make you feel challenged, then what is stoping this game for achieving the same?

 

 

No, I said that in the PE setting where supernatural abilities/magic are extremely common means high power scales

 

Power scales are not for you to determine. Actually, IIRC, the level range is said to be similar to BG1 (or, roughly equalent to D&D lvl 10)

And FYI, I modded such a system into BG2 and it was a blast to play.

Edited by TrashMan

* YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *

Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!

 

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No, it's not completely static. In some ways it's more flexible. HP as it was has NO LOGICAL justification anymore. It makes no sense.

Didn't catch the "almost" did you?

 

All the things that used to be part of HP (dodge, armor, parry, defense) were outsorced to separate variables. Tehre is no need to treat HP like before, because what it logicly represents isn't the same. The mathematical model changed, new variables were added.

It's just there to give a cheap and fake illusion of power to suer-special snowflakes.

Except those stats have never been part of HP. They have always dealt with either reducing the damage taken or avoiding hits.

 

HP has represented how much damage you can take before dying or being knocked unconscious in pretty much every system it has been implemented in. When it increases, it shows that the character can take more damage without being killed or knocked out. It is logical. Not REALISTIC, but arguing for realism in a game like PE is like arguing for a butcher shop to be vegan friendly.

 

Our definition of different is different.

I disagree and will continue to disagree and any further discussion about it is pointless. Drop it.

 

Sorry for using the "different" correctly.

 

So you do lack imagination, because you cannot phantom any different kind of experience or representation of power.

Thank you for proving my point.

I lack the desire to see a almost static HP and Stat system implemented in PE. I don't typically spend my time trying to imagine how something I don't even want in the first place could work.

 

I don't see you trying to imagine how the opposite of what you proposed could be fun, but I'm not going to criticize your lack of imagination. Because that is a little dickish.

If games that have no (or tiny) stat increases can make you feel more powerfull as the game progresses and make you feel challenged, then what is stoping this game for achieving the same?

There haven't been any. Every game that has made me feel the PC has become more powerful have always had some numerical data to show me that the PC had indeed become more powerful.

 

Power scales are not for you to determine. Actually, IIRC, the level range is said to be similar to BG1 (or, roughly equalent to D&D lvl 10)

And FYI, I modded such a system into BG2 and it was a blast to play.

D&D level 12 actually. Look up some of the spells available to casters and the abilities classes get in 3.5E(What PE will be closest too) at level 12 and then come back and talk about power scale. Edited by KaineParker

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlsnot

"You need to be careful, lest I write another ten page essay on mythology and how it relates to Sailor Moon." - majestic

"I won't say what just in case KaineParker is reading" - Bartimaeus

"Oh no! Is there super secret ending as well? I don’t care." - Wormerine

"Get some poor minorities, that keeps WASPs away easy." - Malcador

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All the things that used to be part of HP (dodge, armor, parry, defense) were outsorced to separate variables. Tehre is no need to treat HP like before, because what it logicly represents isn't the same. The mathematical model changed, new variables were added.

It's just there to give a cheap and fake illusion of power to suer-special snowflakes.

Except those stats have never been part of HP. They have always dealt with either reducing the damage taken or avoiding hits.

 

HP has represented how much damage you can take before dying or being knocked unconscious in pretty much every system it has been implemented in. When it increases, it shows that the character can take more damage without being killed or knocked out. It is logical. Not REALISTIC, but arguing for realism in a game like PE is like arguing for a butcher shop to be vegan friendly.

 

 

Except they were.

 

HP was early on a stat that told you how difficult you were to kill. It was a very, very big abstraction from the times PC's were slow as hell and games were simple.

THAT is why it increased with level.

How much damage you can take before diying should not increase based off experience because that has NOTHING to do with experience.

 

Arguing for realism? Don't be a raging hypocrite. People are constantly arguing for realism (or beleviability), only in different areas.

 

 

 

 

I lack the desire to see a almost static HP and Stat system implemented in PE. I don't typically spend my time trying to imagine how something I don't even want in the first place could work.

 

Then if you dont' even want ot TRY and understand, shut up. You got nothing of worth to add to this discussion.

 

 

I don't see you trying to imagine how the opposite of what you proposed could be fun, but I'm not going to criticize your lack of imagination. Because that is a little dickish.

 

I don't have to imagine it because I already know. I played IE games and games with completley different mechanics and I had fun.

Unlike you, I'm open to different mechanics and experiences.

 

 

 

 

There haven't been any. Every game that has made me feel the PC has become more powerful have always had some numerical data to show me that the PC had indeed become more powerful.

 

Then the problem is with you, not the game.

* YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *

Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!

 

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Except they were.

Not in the IE games.

Not in the NWN games.

Not in Arcanum.

Not in Fallout.

Not in D&D.

They have always been separate factors from HP in EVERY game that resembles PE. Show me one Vanilla Party-Based RPG that has HP combined with armor, dodge, parry, etc.

 

HP was early on a stat that told you how difficult you were to kill. It was a very, very big abstraction from the times PC's were slow as hell and games were simple.

THAT is why it increased with level.

How much damage you can take before diying should not increase based off experience because that has NOTHING to do with experience.

How do you know that is true in PE? It could be possible that as someone gains more control over the power of their soul, they are able to take more damage in the setting. What is true in the real world is not necessarily true in a fantasy world.

 

Arguing for realism? Don't be a raging hypocrite. People are constantly arguing for realism (or beleviability), only in different areas.

I'm not people. I don't argue for realism in PE because it is out of place in a fantasy setting where magic is as common as it is in PE.

 

 

Then if you dont' even want ot TRY and understand, shut up. You got nothing of worth to add to this discussion.

This discussion is about power of classes. If you want to constantly derail it to discuss your ideas, **** off and start your own damn thread.

 

I don't have to imagine it because I already know. I played IE games and games with completley different mechanics and I had fun.

Unlike you, I'm open to different mechanics and experiences.

I played games with tons of different mechanics and enjoyed quite a few, but unlike you, I don't try to force realism-based mechanics in to a unrealistic setting. Edited by KaineParker

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlsnot

"You need to be careful, lest I write another ten page essay on mythology and how it relates to Sailor Moon." - majestic

"I won't say what just in case KaineParker is reading" - Bartimaeus

"Oh no! Is there super secret ending as well? I don’t care." - Wormerine

"Get some poor minorities, that keeps WASPs away easy." - Malcador

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HP was early on a stat that told you how difficult you were to kill. It was a very, very big abstraction from the times PC's were slow as hell and games were simple.

THAT is why it increased with level.

How much damage you can take before diying should not increase based off experience because that has NOTHING to do with experience.

How do you know that is true in PE? It could be possible that as someone gains more control over the power of their soul, they are able to take more damage in the setting. What is true in the real world is not necessarily true in a fantasy world.

 

I don't.

However, I can't argue over fictional physics that is an unknown.

Hell, pick ANY mechanics you want to see, ANY thing you think MUST be done in X way in a RPG like this.

Do that, and I will concoct a fictional scenario in which it doesn't apply or makes no sense.

 

And finally, that is not something I wish to see, regardless if it makes sesne in PE or not.

 

 

 

I'm not people. I don't argue for realism in PE because it is out of place in a fantasy setting where magic is as common as it is in PE.

 

So if people eat with their nose and walk on their hands and black is white an white is black...perfectly fine?

 

Believabiltiy is practicly never out of place, especially not if you want ot get immersed in a world.

 

 

 

 

I don't have to imagine it because I already know. I played IE games and games with completley

different mechanics and I had fun.

Unlike you, I'm open to different mechanics and experiences.

I played games with tons of different mechanics and enjoyed quite a few, but unlike you, I don't try to force realism-based mechanics in to a unrealistic setting.

 

No, you are trying to force your own ideas of what should be in.

 

 

 

Not in D&D.

 

Everything has historical baggage. IE games, D&D - they all build upon the fundations of older, simpler games....where HP was everything rolled into one.

* YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *

Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!

 

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I don't.

However, I can't argue over fictional physics that is an unknown.

Then why do you assume that something is not logical in PE if you can not know if it is logical in PE? Haven't the majority of your arguments been based on what real world physics? Real world laws that may not be true in PE?

Hell, pick ANY mechanics you want to see, ANY thing you think MUST be done in X way in a RPG like this.

Do that, and I will concoct a fictional scenario in which it doesn't apply or makes no sense.

Yes we can all sit around making justifications why X should/should not be, we already did that with the dragons remember?

 

But we are discussing a specific fictional setting where it is confirmed that people can tap in to the powers of their souls and magic is quite common. We also do not know all the laws of the universe for the setting, so assuming something is illogical in that universe because it is illogical in the real world isn't really valid.

And finally, that is not something I wish to see, regardless if it makes sesne in PE or not.

Then the problem is you, not the game or game lore.

So if people eat with their nose and walk on their hands and black is white an white is black...perfectly fine?

If it fits the lore of the setting, yes.

 

Believabiltiy is practicly never out of place, especially not if you want ot get immersed in a world.

 

No. There has to be suspension of disbelief to accept magic, different humanoid races, several fantastical creatures, etc.

 

No, you are trying to force your own ideas of what should be in.

 

That is what EVERYONE here is trying to do. You want PE to be some realism simulator where low level characters can still be a threat to high-level characters and have spent the majority of this thread advocating for it. 

 

Everything has historical baggage. IE games, D&D - they all build upon the fundations of older, simpler games....where HP was everything rolled into one.

But those older games were STRATEGY games. RPGs have had separate HP and Armor/Defense since the first edition of D&D was written. Point out one RPG where HP is is Armor, Dodge, Parry, etc rolled in to one stat.

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlsnot

"You need to be careful, lest I write another ten page essay on mythology and how it relates to Sailor Moon." - majestic

"I won't say what just in case KaineParker is reading" - Bartimaeus

"Oh no! Is there super secret ending as well? I don’t care." - Wormerine

"Get some poor minorities, that keeps WASPs away easy." - Malcador

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Then why do you assume that something is not logical in PE if you can not know if it is logical in PE? Haven't the majority of your arguments been based on what real world physics? Real world laws that may not be true in PE?

 

Because reality is always the starting point. Unless specificly stated that X works differently, you look to the real world.

 

And becaue I usually don't like fantasy that is too fantastical.

 

 

Then the problem is you, not the game or game lore.

 

And by hte same token, the problem is not with the mechanics I proposed, but with you.

 

 

 

No. There has to be suspension of disbelief to accept magic, different humanoid races, several fantastical creatures, etc.

 

And suspension of disbelief is dictated by believability. So you do have to have it. Of course, SOME people can completely shut down disbelief and can immerse themselves in everything, but that's certanly not the majority.

 

 

 

That is what EVERYONE here is trying to do. You want PE to be some realism simulator where low level characters can still be a threat to high-level characters and have spent the majority of this thread advocating for it.

 

If that is what everyone is doing, then you got no more leg to stand on than me. I got as much right to push for my vision of a perfect game/mechanics as you have, and so far you havn't supplied a single argument as to why the mechanic can't work other than you don't like it.

 

 

Look...

I'm tired to debating with you, because it's going nowhere. You and I have different ideas what makes the core of an IE game (or should I say, the soul/spirit of it).

You seem to think that spiritual sucessor of an IE game MUST be mechanicly the same in every way (even tough the devs already made some big changes..like the magic system..that's a bigger change than what I propose).

I don't. To me, the spirit of the IE games doesn't lie soley in the mechanics...there's always room for improvement and I want it.

 

 

So let's just agree to completely and utterly disagree.

* YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *

Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!

 

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And FYI, I modded such a system into BG2 and it was a blast to play.

 

If I may ask, what things have you modified in the mod? How high was the base HP?  And is the mod available somewhere?

 

I'd be interested in that as well, in case I ever do yet another playthrough. Probably won't be able to fix my problems with high lvl d&d balancing by itself, but it can never hurt to try. 

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Peronaly i would love a hi power setting, but done in such way that HP is a static number that is afecter by consitution.

Because, an axe to the head it should kill you on level 1 or on level 100.

The idea that i can take 10 axes to the head an still be alive is not something cool.

 

Now, In Game mechanic combat, one has Stamina, And each time you are "Attacked" you try to "Defend" both actions consume stamina, Something that in each combat you always loose, now if the diference is high you land your blow, and you Damage your target, then the armor comes into place with damage reduction.

 

So A warrior That faces 100 Farmes, will be killed because at the end of the day the 100 Farmers will consume all the Warriors Stamina and he will not be able to Attack or Defend, and even if his armor will Reduce the damage he will still be a hitting bag.

 

If you fight a dragon, Once the Dragon attacks you try to defend and consume a lot o stamina so fighting a dragon is hard. and only if you cant defend you will be actualy hit, and because dragon are realy strong you will be dead most lickly.

 

That system, does not stop bending the rules, of the Axe to the head. For example, you can say that focusing the power of your soul you can create an energy barrier that gives damage reduction so a naked warrior can take an axe to the head and resive no damage what so ever. Like Those Shaoling monks Shows.

 

I have stated this a couple of times, but i still feal the same way

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If it fits the lore of the setting, yes.

While in some cases it this might be interesting, familiarity is still a big factor. And because we're generally most familiar with reality, a fantasy world must always uphold a certain degree of realism if it's supposed to be appealing. The most successful fantasy settings are those with worlds where basic physical laws like gravity apply, and with humans as protagonists, not insectoids. Of course tastes may differ on how familiar a certain setting is supposed to be, and it might be possible to adapt to even the strangest scenarios after a while. But we're talking about a game that's supposed to resemble the IE games. And while there is magic in these games, there is still a world outside of magic, which is similiar to the real world. If this wouldn't be the case for PE, it would be completely different from any IE game, and practically almost every other fantasy setting. 

 

Believability has more to do with logical coherence of a setting and a story I think. 

 

 

Edited by Iucounu
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Seen it, wanted to play it, but never got around to it.

It's on my "to-do" list and I really should get it ne of these days.

 

 

You shoud love it. Your character whole game is on "Human" level. And it fitts this game in my opinion. I mean normal medieval times (without dragons and magic) but i can't imagine how this system coud possibly work in lat's say Baldours gate type of game.

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And FYI, I modded such a system into BG2 and it was a blast to play.

 

If I may ask, what things have you modified in the mod? How high was the base HP?  And is the mod available somewhere?

 

 

Off the top of my head:

- removed wepon/item restrictions to anyone can equip anything (but they might suck at using it)

- removed AC bonus from normal armors and added damage reduction and/or damage resistance

- set HP for everyone to depend on CON score only (IIRC, base HP was in mid range, so early characters had almsot as much HP as high lvl ones...around 100 I belive)

- more stuff.

*

 

I have to see if I still have it on my backup HDD, because it's been years since I made it and I made it for myself, so I never uploaded it (and both my old HDD and my on-line storage died the same day...lost months worth of files, managed to save some)

It was interesting to play with it - similar, yet different experience and in some ways harder. A light DEX fighter and a full plate warrior really played differently.

 

I later made another mod, which should be availabe (google Holy Avenger Kit/mod)

 

- Added a Holy Avenger kit for paladins (offfensive-paladin. Has some more penalties in fighting normal opponents. Can produce holy blade, cast holy smite and as a final power can cast Heavens Fury, which adds 1d5 of each damage type to his attack for 3 rounds)

-tweaked paladins of the Order and elves of Sundelessnar equipment (now elves don't fight with normal blades and armors anymore).

- added more items (sold in Sundalessanar)

- more stuff I can't recall.

Edited by TrashMan

* YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *

Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!

 

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True, it works with mount&blade... I guess that's because the player in that game has direct control over combat, which gives you the ability of not being hit at all. If every peasant had a 1 in 20 chance to ignore your parry, it would just feel unfair.

 

HP inflation is a rather important point imho, since it also leads to things like disarming traps barbarian style and tends to devalue purely damage based magic. Maybe we should split this off into another, more specific thread? This one is totally fubared after all those pages discussing aragorn or dragons, nobody will find it here =P

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fyi, inflation is a general increase, it doesn't mean increasing.  if a currency gets inflated, it's value changes, but so does everything else so that only the amount of money being handled changes.  for stats it would mean that the game figures on a certain inflation rate, so at level 10 enemies would do 10x the damage to compensate for the 10x HP you have.  your stats have increased, but the increase is meaningless if you kept with the expected inflation rate.  i can get into it mathematically, but in a nut shell the increase messes up balance quite a bit.  if you are a barbarian and manage to have your HP higher than expected, then anything that does damage becomes less of a threat.  if you are say a thief that specializes in non combat stuff like disarming traps and such, then everything other than traps become more of a threat than expected (and since thieves aren't supposed to be great at combat normally...).  if you know all of the little hidden stashes or ways of getting easy bonuses, then you can grab them and the game becomes a cake walk, unless the game figures you would do such, and then in that case the game becomes very difficult if you don't grab such things.

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@Trashman

Thanks for the information. I've actually assumed you've implemented some of hardcore system where every character gets only 20-30 HP. Might have even worked that way considering you already introduced damage-absorbing armor. 

 

@general_azure

I think in the case of PE it's a bit more complicated, as conventional HP is also stamina. So if you leave out HP inflation, you end up with always the same amount of fuel for special attacks, unless you lower stamina costs for high level fighters.

 

In any case, a thread or even a poll about HP/stamina inflation would be a good idea. 

Edited by Iucounu
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Maybe you can inflate the stamina pool while keeping the HP the same? (and con based)

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Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.
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Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons.

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