A Realistic Social System in Project Eternity

[mcmanusaur]

One of the defining aspects of a medieval society is a generally imbalanced social order (often in the form/as a result of feudalism), but games never seem to get this right. You mostly see the nicest quarters of town, with commoners' residences only serving as a half-assed wallpaper on the horizon. On the occasion you do see a less desirable part of town, it's always the criminal underworld. You never see acres of farmland in the hinterlands of cities, presumably because developers want to fit in more wilderness content. But it begs the question, where does the food come from? Is there a magical source of food in this setting that has only a few significantly sized farms over the whole thing? Where are the commoners whose labor supports the social system that our characters seem to benefit from? Are the craftsmen really the lowest class in the IG society, despite artisans being fairly well off relatively speaking in the Middle Ages? Taking it a step further, what about lumber and stone? Which logging yards (deforestation is a historical problem, not just a current one) and quarries do they come from? while the temptation is for developers to create a pretty, unadulterated map with an artificial distinction between settlement and wilderness, that comes at a cost. Am I really the only one tired of seeing patently unsustainable social and economic systems in RPGs? Bring on the peasants and the (medieval analog of) suburbs! How convincing is a medieval fantasy setting with early modern era technology but a dark ages level of development? Perhaps this is a successor to my real estate thread.

Edited December 7, 2012 by mcmanusaur

[Sacred_Path]

Which logging yards (deforestation is a historical problem, not just a current one) and quarries do they come from?

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62290-environmental-issues-in-pe/

 

[/shameless plug]

 

As for humble residences, let's reminisce about Gothic 1. The wooden hut was the egalitarian dwelling.

[rjshae]

The game does not need to simulate those elements of the economy in order to tell its story. Just think of them as being located on the parts of the map you can't visit. EOM.

[Nonek]

I like the general idea McMan, something similar to the first chapter of the Witcher, where you experience the grinding poverty and desperation of the villeins. Rather than the renaissance fayre happy peasants cavorting in the fields, that we are fed in so many rpg's. Perhaps not as resolutely stark and grim as the Witcher, but something that acknowledges the agrarian social order and its reliance on what amounts to slave labour.

 

Perhaps a fermenting sense of civil unrest is abroad in the Shires, with a charismatic Wat Tyler preaching to the masses. Maybe the stronghold we hope to seize is the domain of an ironfisted robber baron, and we have a chance to change the lives of the lower classes. Or perhaps a cult similar to the Wicker Man (NOT NICHOLAS CAGE) flourishes in the heart of a drowsing hamlet, and some ancient bane awakens from its centuries of slumber.

 

It sounds like an admirable springboard for both adventure and scene setting.

[mcmanusaur]

The game does not need to simulate those elements of the economy in order to tell its story. Just think of them as being located on the parts of the map you can't visit. EOM.

But can the audience relate to the story if it floats within some sort of societal void? Does it feel convincing, and resonate with people, or is it just another fairy tale in some fantasy paradise? Personally I think the idea of "Oh, this stuff is just going on elsewhere, and you'll never witness it" is quite unimaginative, and could be applied to nearly any thread here.

[Hormalakh]

I think that unless its relevant to the main story in some way, a lot of times these things are just abstracted away. There are obviously these things that exist in the "universe" but the story doesn't relate to them, the players don't much care, and your adventurers don't really care either to go there. We can't have everything just for the sake of realism - it would be too convoluted and can dilute away the main story. It has to be fairly "focused." Now if the story deals with these issues, then obviously the points you make would be in the game.

 

Or are you arguing for these to be main/side themes involved in the game? I'm not sure...

[Nonek]

I don't know, you don't need much representation of the social order to go a long way. It helps lay a more cohesive foundation for the world, and acknowledges that we're not operating in a consequence free sphere. That noble and kind Paladin in your ranks, may look down on the lower classes as weak souls who are lesser humans, and it is her duty to give charity and protect these weaklings. At the other end of the scale we have something like Dragon Age 2, where the mages are struggling for freedom in a feudal system, an utterly ridiculous raison d'etre because that entire world is culturally and socially undeveloped.

 

Plus you can place peasants in almost any situation, the young man seeking his fortune in the city, only to be found lying bloody in an alley. His sister selling herself on a street corner, hoping to earn enough coin to run back home. A farmer seling his crop at the city gate, marvelling at the splendours. Or perhaps a trio of young martyrs, hanged for daring to convene a union.

 

In my opinion, you can add a lot of flavour without too much meat.

[Pidesco]

Thread pruned a bit. Use the report button if you see a problem that needs addressing.

[anubite]

I don't think simulation is misplaced in an RPG. Computers are apt at simulation as well. Adding more detail and addressing the "commoner" element of a psuedo-medieval society could be effective. It depends upon how this effected, but I'd say it really matters what PE's theme is about.

 

It's about souls, I'd guess? How do souls factor into economy, city life, oppression, the means/mode of production, et cetera? If we need to examine the suffering of a city populous, then I would agree that focusing on the civilian aspect of medieval life is prudent.

 

Mount and Blade does this by letting you visit the "fiefs" and villages that surround the great cities and castles. You can do favors for the villagers and take note of their living conditions. You can defend them from bandits and ask them questions about their life. Although it isn't deep, I'd say M&B does what you're talking about effectively. There is also a simulation aspect involved - each village contribues goods and men to a kingdom every so often. If villages are destroyed, then the economy is shallowly simulated. Kingdoms have less able bodies and less resources. The price of food and goods goes up and you can exploit this by going to other kingdoms, buying goods from the market, and selling them at a gouged price in war torn cities. i would say this simulates things fairly well and probably was not too expensive to implement from a programming/resources level.

 

It is something that could simply be added with modding though, so I'd argue making sure there are assets for us to visit villages is not a bad investment, but actually simulating the economy is something that could be left for modders.

[High Octane 881]

Well....a Mcmanusaur thread that actually has potential for a decent conversation. I think all the things that you're describing are little details that are nice to know they're present but no one really wants to see. Unless it's fits into the story why WOULD the adventurers go trekking through the slums of a city? What would they gain by wandering across some poor farmer's fields? In the words of Sawyer himself, if these everyday mundane (although undeniably important) things were added how would it "affects the ways in which players play the game."?

 

Edit: Also keep in mind this is not a completely open world. The filler is being cut because that's what it is, and in a world this size it would be available in massive quantities.

Edited December 7, 2012 by PB_Popeye

[Aldereth]

Depending on the story the cRPG want to tell. Getting too much realism and details in may detract from certain kind of plot. cRPG and fantasy are a lot of time about escapism, for some gamers it would be rather hard to find escapism if the game world is a grim grey, edgy caricature of the real world

[Nonek]

Exactly Popeye, they only need to be in the background. You trek through the slums to reach that hidden guildhouse you've been hunting for, and in passing can gather information from the beggars and doxies on the street corners. That trek across the farmers lands shaves ten miles off your journey, while passing farmer Giles warns you of the cruel robber baron who rules this land, and his goodwife sells you a few rations or herbs.

 

Subtle world building, that affects how the characters judge their own society. They may see more freedom in the Glenfathan barbarians huts than is evident in their homelands, and realise that the good king Johan is the latest in a long line of bloodthirsty tyrants, propping themselves up on conquest and divine right. Or that he is a much needed symbol of unity, in a dangerous land where the strongest are all too eager to tear down any leader who shows the merest glimpse of freedom.

 

Edit: I don't think McMan's arguing for a grimdark caricature, more an internally consistent worldview. Like the good, bad and neutral aspects that are all bound up in the NCR in New Vegas.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Nonek

[mcmanusaur]

Well....a Mcmanusaur thread that actually has potential for a decent conversation.

 

See also

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62105-character-traits-and-statistics-in-pe/

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62146-real-estate-business-in-project-eternity/

The fact is that here- just like everywhere else- troll threads (and small talk) get more attention than serious discourse regarding actual issues in the game.

[mcmanusaur]

Well....a Mcmanusaur thread that actually has potential for a decent conversation. I think all the things that you're describing are little details that are nice to know they're present but no one really wants to see. Unless it's fits into the story why WOULD the adventurers go trekking through the slums of a city? What would they gain by wandering across some poor farmer's fields? In the words of Sawyer himself, if these everyday mundane (although undeniably important) things were added how would it "affects the ways in which players play the game."?

 

I'd rather this game confront complex social issues in the main plot line rather than focus on an immature, black-and-white scenario against an evil mastermind. Sure, if the latter is the case then all this is irrelevant, but do we want that?

Edited December 7, 2012 by mcmanusaur

[Hormalakh]

Well....a Mcmanusaur thread that actually has potential for a decent conversation. I think all the things that you're describing are little details that are nice to know they're present but no one really wants to see. Unless it's fits into the story why WOULD the adventurers go trekking through the slums of a city? What would they gain by wandering across some poor farmer's fields? In the words of Sawyer himself, if these everyday mundane (although undeniably important) things were added how would it "affects the ways in which players play the game."?

 

I'd rather this game confront complex social issues in the main plot line rather than focus on an immature, black-and-white scenario against an evil mastermind. Sure, if the latter is the case then all this is irrelevant, but do we want that?

 

OK then, so this is a plot request. In that case, I can't say too much about it other than maybe the developers will read your post and if it's relevant include it as part of the story. I don't have any qualms with what you wrote otherwise.

[High Octane 881]

I'd rather this game confront complex social issues in the main plot line rather than focus on an immature, black-and-white scenario against an evil mastermind. Sure, if the latter is the case then all this is irrelevant, but do we want that?

Well one of the arguably most common reasons that gamers play the games they do is the pursuit of escapism. Wouldn't it stand to reason (as a general whole) that those mundane situations are exactly what we are wanting to avoid? If it can be worked into a game thoroughly where it actually plays a part within the story and is most importantly fun, then I certainly see no harm in it happening. Simply being in there for the sake of novelty is trivial however and ultimately could detriment the rest of the game as time and assets are moved from other parts of the project.

 

I'm curious if you could provide us an example of how YOU believe these "complex social issues in the main plot line" could be properly implemented?

[mcmanusaur]

Well....a Mcmanusaur thread that actually has potential for a decent conversation. I think all the things that you're describing are little details that are nice to know they're present but no one really wants to see. Unless it's fits into the story why WOULD the adventurers go trekking through the slums of a city? What would they gain by wandering across some poor farmer's fields? In the words of Sawyer himself, if these everyday mundane (although undeniably important) things were added how would it "affects the ways in which players play the game."?

 

I'd rather this game confront complex social issues in the main plot line rather than focus on an immature, black-and-white scenario against an evil mastermind. Sure, if the latter is the case then all this is irrelevant, but do we want that?

 

OK then, so this is a plot request. In that case, I can't say too much about it other than maybe the developers will read your post and if it's relevant include it as part of the story. I don't have any qualms with what you wrote otherwise.

Right, but it's not so much a request that the entire plot revolves around social justice or something, but rather that not only does the plot significantly affect the wider IG society, but the social context also informs the plot.

[PrimeJunta]

One of the things I liked best about Fallout was the effort at making a believable world, with farms, herds, caravans, and what have you. I would very much like to see P:E do this too. You don't need to show everything, but I would be delighted to see hints that it is there.

[mcmanusaur]

I'm curious if you could provide us an example of how YOU believe these "complex social issues in the main plot line" could be properly implemented?

Consider how in many RPGs, your character and/or party seems to be pretty much the only ones reacting to plot developments. Many NPCs dialogue options do not even change as world-changing events unfold; they are either ignorant of the secret epic clash of good and evil, or it's just a design mistake. Now, consider if plot development not only changes their speech, but their behavior. Perhaps during that moment of the plot where defeat seems inevitable, matters are made worse as the peasants revolt, either incited directly by the plot's villain or by the worsening conditions of their lifestyle. Or perhaps feuding noble families constitute more than just a side-quest series. At the very least it offers another dimension by which we can define our characters; are they paragon of the established order, or are they a radical? The game's technology is already well-past medieval, and perhaps politically we could see something a la Age of Revolution. I just think having the majority of a society be ignorant or passive with regard to events that deeply impact their life is a bit... vainglorious. Why not force the player to slaughter miners on strike or their overseers for one quest, and let the character experience the consequences of their action as the IG political order and economy falls apart as a result of further such revolts? Or perhaps the lower classes of society harbor substance addictions, and the upper echelons capitalize upon this by paying them with drugs? That for me is a mature theme.

Edited December 7, 2012 by mcmanusaur

[Sacred_Path]

I always welcome attempts at designing an inherently logical world, where things like the economy are properly simulated.

 

However,

 

from what we have heard about PE so far I imagine a relatively well-off world (well, corner of the world), not a grimdark setting. Therefore, while I'd find it enjoyable to have some references to difference in social standing in dialogues especially, I'd assume that the inhabitants of this region are preoccupied with other matters than peasant riots. *cough* Souls *cough*. Seem to be a pretty big thing. Ditto for religion in general, which seems to be a violently disputed matter.

 

I could well imagine scenarios where peasants, while living in relative poverty, are so caught up in the metaphysical aspects of their life they barely pay much attention to the economic circumstances in which they live.

[High Octane 881]

I agree. But....again only so long as it didn't detract from the rest of the game and managed to effect the overall experience of the player. I'm absolutely on your side that there are generally not enough "side-effects" represented in the NPC population as result of story progression in most games. I'm all for a living, breathing world that properly responds to events.

[mcmanusaur]

I agree. But....again only so long as it didn't detract from the rest of the game and managed to effect the overall experience of the player. I'm absolutely on your side that there are generally not enough "side-effects" represented in the NPC population as result of story progression in most games. I'm all for a living, breathing world that properly responds to events.

Indeed. And for me one reason for the lack of proper response is that the game doesn't have a realistically complex society, in which some people could definitely benefit from a change in the order of things. If everyone is in living in a hunky dory utopia prior to the arrival of Mr. Baddy, there's no reason for things to end anywhere different from where they began, even if the player wins the game.

[Gumbercules]

Well, Josh Sawyer mentioned in one of his lore updates that Readceras had undergone a peasants' revolt due to poverty, so it's not like everything is sunshine and daisies for everybody. Also, while providing a perfect simulation of a working medieval world is not necessary, including slums, hovels, farms, and the peasants who inhabit them is a good way of providing some variety for the game.

 

I thought the Witcher games did a good job of showing rich and poor, idylic and depressing, shady and safe areas of civilization in an interesting way, and I hope Project Eternity attempts to do the same (although it doesn't need to be quite as dark and nihilistic).

[Sacred_Path]

One idea: we will get a house that will eventually be upgraded to a stronghold. Do something with that.

 

At the start of the game, we're unknown, and what's worse we're a bunch of murder hobos. Let the world react to that accordingly. Then later, as house owners, we move up the ranks to become part of the establishment/ urban citizen class. Lastly, once you get a stronghold, you're likely to be considered aristocrats.

 

This could be reflected in dialogue, and give you access to different NPCs/ quest givers (no audience with the Elven queen for murder hobos!)

Edited December 8, 2012 by Sacred_Path

[Osvir]

The game does not need to simulate those elements of the economy in order to tell its story. Just think of them as being located on the parts of the map you can't visit. EOM.

But can the audience relate to the story if it floats within some sort of societal void? Does it feel convincing, and resonate with people, or is it just another fairy tale in some fantasy paradise? Personally I think the idea of "Oh, this stuff is just going on elsewhere, and you'll never witness it" is quite unimaginative, and could be applied to nearly any thread here.

 

Depends, does the farmer work on a large farm where there's 100's of workers that after their workday go home to Big City 1 where you can meet them and get the explanation of how it all works? Baldur's Gate had 2 areas just outside that had farmlands, Nashkel had farmlands as well, Friendly Arms Inn had some cows.

 

In Might & Magic 1 food is just "Food", with no explanation to it at all. Sometimes you only need to show 5% to immerse the rest of the 95%.

 

How much needs to be explained versus how much do we fill in the blanks?

Edited December 8, 2012 by Osvir