Piracy and DRM

[BBMorti]

Preventing pirating is a waste of time and money, imo, even the most complex but known system (not inventing new technical concepts and relying on files on the user PC) won't stand a day if there is wish to undone it. Those DRMs that invest heavily in innovation (some versions of starforce on their emergence) or those which rely on server connection (without actually having part of the game on remote server) will stand longer, but wont guarantee anything - there is no protection from disassembling the exe or reverse-engineering server.

 

You're kidding, right?

 

You do know why CDPR is so beloved by the pc community, right?

I just... goddamn.

You ACTUALLY want DRM as though it's in any way effective and not irritating?

 

The best DRM is goodwill, everything else gets cracked.

 

http://www.pcgamer.c...ows-8-and-more/

 

As a backer of this game I don't demand DRM. But I do demand other backers and Obsidian supporters to STOP the defending piracy of PE and to start saying, "Yah, piracy is an evil." My thread consisted of variable proposals to the backers and the developers. The developers so far have followed through on their part. They haven't implemented DRM and have made the game easy to access when it comes out.

 

My issue is actually now with the backers. Why are you defending piracy for this game? How can you support a company and also come here and support piracy for PE. All I want is for people to say, "Yes, if I see someone pirating this game - which doesn't have DRM - then I will tell them to go an buy it and to stop pirating it." Community deterrence by speaking out against pirating PE and not actively putting your backed game on pirate sites is what you can do.

Who the hell do you think you are to make demands from your fellow backers? Consider that when people actually defend a position you think is completely illogical, that you might not be seeing the big picture. Your whole OP and attitude is an insult to coherent thinking people.

[Hormalakh]

Who the hell do you think you are to make demands from your fellow backers? Consider that when people actually defend a position you think is completely illogical, that you might not be seeing the big picture. Your whole OP and attitude is an insult to coherent thinking people.

 

I didn't say it was completely illogical, I said that it has no merit in this community-backed game. If there is a bigger picture, I'd like you to show it to me, not by shouting me down. My OP was not meant to be inflaming. Your post however is. For whatever reason, asking you to say "As a backer of PE, I believe that pirating PE is bad" has made you angry. I am just not sure why.

 

As a backer, I want to see a bigger expansion pack and I believe that most other backers here do too. Obsidian has stated that they will use the funds that they get from the sales to make an expansion pack. If we have 0 sales, we don't get an expansion pack. Every bit of sales helps get a better expansion pack. I believe that most backers want this.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Hormalakh]

My issue is actually now with the backers. Why are you defending piracy for this game? How can you support a company and also come here and support piracy for PE. All I want is for people to say, "Yes, if I see someone pirating this game - which doesn't have DRM - then I will tell them to go an buy it and to stop pirating it." Community deterrence by speaking out against pirating PE and not actively putting your backed game on pirate sites is what you can do.

 

Not wanting DRM doesn't equate to piracy, and the way Obsidian will get the fans of their games to tell pirates "hey, that isn't cool" is by building goodwill, the first step of which is getting rid of DRM.

CDPR have realized this, and as a result the pc community have rallied behind them.

Their game still gets pirated, but despite that it's hugely successful and has a devoted following who do tell pirates to piss off.

 

Oh I see. You just think not having DRM is a good choice. I have no problem with that. Is there anything else that we (backers,gamers) can do however to make piracy less appealing?

 

What about the developers? What if they put a serial number on the CD. Would that help? What about another copyright protection not as obtrusive as DRM. Would that be ok for you?

Edited November 29, 2012 by Hormalakh

[alanschu]

This is not going to happen, as long as the current copyright laws and intellectual property laws exist. We could just flip the whole situation: Intellectual Property is theft from the Public Domain. What about that?

 

Also, DRM is doing the exact opposite: it's driving away normal users and creates more pirates. Funny enough, one could add: as long as piracy exists, the offers are simply not good enough.

 

This is just a justification in your head to validate the actions. It's a part of the problem. You're also echoing tragedy of the commons. An analogy is that you shouldn't bother recycling because so many other people don't and the impact you make is insignificant on your own.

 

It is undeniable that DRM would be an even greater waste of time and money, and simply could not be justified at all, if piracy was zero.

 

 

There is nothing that entitles someone to a piece of software. If you go without playing that video game because it has DRM you don't like, the personal cost you take on is simply not playing a video game.

 

But of course, people want to play the video games, so even though the product itself isn't what you like (for cost or DRM reasons), you still want to play it so you do. It's effectively becoming a slave to your desires. Rather than standing up on your principles of not liking DRM, you decide to circumvent it because you still want to play the game.

 

All of the intellectual property rights stuff is just a red herring. You want something, so you're acquiring it. It's all just mental gymnastics to justify it in your head. You don't need it. If you want to stand on principle, don't pirate something simply because you want it. You're undermining your position and your hobby by doing so.

[Hormalakh]

Now after reading through a lot of this thread I've come to a couple ways to try and keep PE piracy as low as possible:

 

1. The developers need a good relationship with their customer base. They should be active on facebook/twitter/their forums/steam whatever. They need to get out their and show they are people who work hard and deserve your money. As was said in a post, your more inclined to give your friend a $50 he dropped vs a stranger.

 

2. Make sure the game is easier to obtain and play legitimately than via pirating. This is harder on the PC, a simple torrent download will net you a game in most cases, with a simple exe replacement as the crack. However, a lot of people would still rather not deal with sifting through possibly bad torrents, waiting for a possible long download, the possibility of viruses, so you have an edge there. And offer FAST download speeds!

 

3. Don't bundle other crap with your game, especially some intrusive DRM that limits the number of installs or something. ITunes comes to mind with their stranglehold on your media. Why would I pay for media that is limited when a quick search can offer it free of restrictions....With all the licensing and what not, it's easier to pirate Game Of Thrones than to find a legitimate stream, they are missing a huge opportunity because of their restrictions.

 

4. Make it affordable. A lot more people would be willing to pay $30.00 for this game than $60.00. This was a big factor when I bought TL2, it was only 20 bucks and I sure as hell got and continue to get value from this game.

 

5. Accept the fact it will be pirated to some degree, and use it to promote your game rather than condemning pirates. I linked an article before where a company did this, and basically had a pay what you want type deal. He basically said hey, I hope you guys like this game, and if you can please consider donating if you enjoy it. I work hard and don't make much money and every little bit helps.

 

That's all I can think of for now.

 

I really like your ideas and wish I had thought of them too. I don't imagine DRM is going to be the future, but it's a good way to get people to start thinking of ideas. Everyone, including me, hates DRM. I just thought it was a necessary evil. Apparently it doesn't have to be.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Hormalakh

[BBMorti]

Who the hell do you think you are to make demands from your fellow backers? Consider that when people actually defend a position you think is completely illogical, that you might not be seeing the big picture. Your whole OP and attitude is an insult to coherent thinking people.

 

I didn't say it was completely illogical, I said that it has no merit in this community-backed game. If there is a bigger picture, I'd like you to show it to me, not by shouting me down. My OP was not meant to be inflaming. Your post however is. For whatever reason, asking you to say "As a backer of PE, I believe that pirating PE is bad" has made you angry. I am just not sure why.

 

As a backer, I want to see a bigger expansion pack and I believe that most other backers here do too. Obsidian has stated that they will use the funds that they get from the sales to make an expansion pack. If we have 0 sales, we don't get an expansion pack. Every bit of sales helps get a better expansion pack. I believe that most backers want this.

"As a backer of this game I don't demand DRM. But I do demand other backers and Obsidian supporters to STOP the defending piracy of PE and to start saying, "Yah, piracy is an evil." "

Quoting you, this sounds like you spewing demands, to me.

Demands you are in no position to make. I am so tired of people coming here on these forums spewing demands but you took it a step further practically making demands of me (Since I am one of the backers).

 

What makes your OP retarded in simple terms is that it essentially utilizes the same strategy that, for example, governments use to take away peoples freedoms by pointing to something horrible some other people have done.

A pirate, like a terrorist is a stupid argument to base an action on that hurts people who are not pirates or terrorists.

Edited November 29, 2012 by BBMorti

[GhoulishVisage]

Oh I see. You just think not having DRM is a good choice. I have no problem with that. Is there anything else that we (backers,gamers) can do however to make piracy less appealing?

 

What about the developers? What if they put a serial number on the CD. Would that help? What about another copyright protection not as obtrusive as DRM. Would that be ok for you?

 

The only thing that thing that we can do is be as awesome of a community as possible.

I was swayed into trying and buying STALKER simply because of how cool the community was and how riveting their stories of The Zone were.

Also, if we see someone mentioning that they're going to/have pirated PE we can just say "Hey, Obsidian are really cool and it'd be great if you supported them."

Attacking a person rarely works to change their mind, and may only further validate their own opinions about pirating the game.

Other than that PR is entirely in Obsidian's court. If they conduct themselves in a manner similar to CDPR (minus that legal rumpus) and their game is good they'll build a fantastically devoted following for Project Eternity in no time.

 

As for the CD-key thing, as far as I'm aware isn't PE digital distribution only?

The only physical copies going out (as far as I'm aware) will be for the backers who pledged extra for them, and that might be a bit unfair to those people.

[Hormalakh]

What makes your OP retarded in simple terms is that it essentially utilizes the same strategy that, for example, governments use to take away peoples freedoms by pointing to something horrible some other people have done.

A pirate, like a terrorist is a stupid argument to base an action on that hurts people who are not pirates or terrorists.

 

What freedom is that exactly? The freedom to infringe on copyright? The freedom to rain on our parade? I imagine you would be much more tired of people making demands on these forums if they believed that they didn't have to support Obsidian (by buying or backing) and yet continued to make demands. Am I wrong on that assumption?

 

I didn't equate all pirates to being all terrorists. I asked for public support in limiting and deterring PE piracy. Apparently I've come and rained on your parade by "demanding" that. I've also asked for Obsidian to be clear with us (which they have been) and for us to think about DRM (or any other possible solutions to piracy against PE).

Edited November 29, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Monte Carlo]

These threads always go wrong because of smart-arsed pro-piracy arguments.

 

I particularly like the way they dress their greed up as some sort of freedom-fighting altruism.

[Hormalakh]

Oh I see. You just think not having DRM is a good choice. I have no problem with that. Is there anything else that we (backers,gamers) can do however to make piracy less appealing?

 

What about the developers? What if they put a serial number on the CD. Would that help? What about another copyright protection not as obtrusive as DRM. Would that be ok for you?

 

The only thing that thing that we can do is be as awesome of a community as possible.

I was swayed into trying and buying STALKER simply because of how cool the community was and how riveting their stories of The Zone were.

Also, if we see someone mentioning that they're going to/have pirated PE we can just say "Hey, Obsidian are really cool and it'd be great if you supported them."

Attacking a person rarely works to change their mind, and may only further validate their own opinions about pirating the game.

Other than that PR is entirely in Obsidian's court. If they conduct themselves in a manner similar to CDPR (minus that legal rumpus) and their game is good they'll build a fantastically devoted following for Project Eternity in no time.

 

As for the CD-key thing, as far as I'm aware isn't PE digital distribution only?

The only physical copies going out (as far as I'm aware) will be for the backers who pledged extra for them, and that might be a bit unfair to those people.

 

Good point about the CD-key. Didn't think that one through.

 

I don't believe I've been attacking anyone. My apologies if it has seemed that way.

[Hormalakh]

These threads always go wrong because of smart-arsed pro-piracy arguments.

 

I particularly like the way they dress their greed up as some sort of freedom-fighting altruism.

 

The way I see it, this was a thread that would show up sooner or later. It deals directly with the game (and its future piracy, etc), and there has been a lull in the forums. Let's discuss it now, cognitive dissonance and all, and get it out the way. Of course, I didn't know there would be an update coming up on Tuesday...

Edited November 29, 2012 by Hormalakh

[GhoulishVisage]

I don't believe I've been attacking anyone. My apologies if it has seemed that way.

 

Hm, could have worded that better, I wasn't referring to you I was referring to talking to people who wanted to/already had pirated Project Eternity.

Verbally assaulting them would just make them immediately go into the defensive and give the Obsidian community a reputation for being combative fanboys.

 

Sorry about that.

[DreamingVoid]

You wouldn't download a car.

[BBMorti]

What makes your OP retarded in simple terms is that it essentially utilizes the same strategy that, for example, governments use to take away peoples freedoms by pointing to something horrible some other people have done.

A pirate, like a terrorist is a stupid argument to base an action on that hurts people who are not pirates or terrorists.

 

What freedom is that exactly? The freedom to infringe on copyright? The freedom to rain on our parade? I imagine you would be much more tired of people making demands on these forums if they believed that they didn't have to support Obsidian (by buying or backing) and yet continued to make demands. Am I wrong on that assumption?

 

I didn't equate all pirates to being all terrorists. I asked for public support in limiting and deterring PE piracy. Apparently I've come and rained on your parade by "demanding" that.

 

 

 

 

CTRL + Q to Enable/Disable GoPhoto.it

If you cant decipher that is it meant less literally than that, then I wont be able to explain it to you.

*woooooosh* is the sound of how correct your assumption are.

 

These threads always go wrong because of smart-arsed pro-piracy arguments.

 

I particularly like the way they dress their greed up as some sort of freedom-fighting altruism.

 

Another absolute gold nugget of a comment from Monte Carlo. You know it is brilliance when people pull up the great decorative words like 'always' and 'never'.

Edited November 29, 2012 by BBMorti

[Monte Carlo]

This thread doesn't belong here, it belongs in computer and console. Tacking it onto P:E the way you have doesn't really change that.

 

It's a subject that's been kicked to death more than Romance. It's also a subject that breeds more mendacity and dis-ingenuousness than any other.

 

Bottom line: some cheapskates want something for nothing. Other folks don't. The first group kill creativity and innovation. The second do not. I've chosen my side.

[Heresiarch]

Calling copyright infringement piracy or theft is kinda stale. I suggest we call it sodomy, rape or murder to shame them evil bastards into sympathy for the video game industry. Because that's how it works, right?

 

Now, the only entities really hurt by copyright infringement are the publishers. That is if we disregard all the weird conjectures how piracy increases the purchase price of games and the like. I mean, if you think that the moment piracy is gone, the publishers will just go on and decrease prices to make customers happy instead of writing out fat bonus checks for the CEO and upper management, you might be living in a parallel universe. And the publishes aren't getting any sympathy from me, because the richer they get the more EA they become.

 

So I tend to think of piracy as a wealth redistribution system. It certainly is not going to make the industry collapse. It hadn't done so before and is unlikely to ever pose a threat to anything else other than publisher's profits despite all fuzz they rise about the issue. And the fact that I can play whatever I want for free never stopped me from buying games.

[Monte Carlo]

Another absolute gold nugget of a comment from Monte Carlo

 

Hey, thanks.

[Hormalakh]

What makes your OP retarded in simple terms is that it essentially utilizes the same strategy that, for example, governments use to take away peoples freedoms by pointing to something horrible some other people have done.

A pirate, like a terrorist is a stupid argument to base an action on that hurts people who are not pirates or terrorists.

 

What freedom is that exactly? The freedom to infringe on copyright? The freedom to rain on our parade? I imagine you would be much more tired of people making demands on these forums if they believed that they didn't have to support Obsidian (by buying or backing) and yet continued to make demands. Am I wrong on that assumption?

 

I didn't equate all pirates to being all terrorists. I asked for public support in limiting and deterring PE piracy. Apparently I've come and rained on your parade by "demanding" that.

 

If you cant decipher that is it meant less literally than that, then I wont be able to explain it to you.

*woooooosh* is the sound of how correct your assumption are.

 

I take it that you have no more "arguments" to make and have now continued to waste other readers' time by using ad hominem attacks. Very well. I'll use this space to make my case again. Pirates hurt us the gamers, because they disuade developers from making PC-only single player games. What we are left with is console hand-me-downs which many of us here on the forums have hated (see DA2-bashing threads). For us to demand better games from developers and then when we are given an opportunity through a kickstarted game to not ask pirates to stop, we are continuing this trend of PC-only single player trash. The one or two games a year is insufficient. We as players (and backers) need to do something.

[Monte Carlo]

Calling INSURANCE FRAUD piracy or theft is kinda stale. I suggest we call it sodomy, rape or murder to shame them evil bastards into sympathy for the INSURANCE industry. Because that's how it works, right?

 

Now, the only entities really hurt by INSURANCE FRAUD are the INSURERS. That is if we disregard all the weird conjectures how INSURANCE FRAUD increases the purchase price of INSURANCE POLICIES and the like. I mean, if you think that the moment INSURANCE FRAUD is gone, the INSURERS will just go on and decrease prices to make customers happy instead of writing out fat bonus checks for the CEO and upper management, you might be living in a parallel universe.

 

Thought I'd try a bit of comparison. Insurance fraud in the auto accident arena increases premiums from honest motorists. We all still drive, but we have to pay a little more so thieves can enjoy a little extra money. That's OK then.

[Hormalakh]

Calling copyright infringement piracy or theft is kinda stale. I suggest we call it sodomy, rape or murder to shame them evil bastards into sympathy for the video game industry. Because that's how it works, right?

 

Now, the only entities really hurt by copyright infringement are the publishers. That is if we disregard all the weird conjectures how piracy increases the purchase price of games and the like. I mean, if you think that the moment piracy is gone, the publishers will just go on and decrease prices to make customers happy instead of writing out fat bonus checks for the CEO and upper management, you might be living in a parallel universe. And the publishes aren't getting any sympathy from me, because the richer they get the more EA they become.

 

So I tend to think of piracy as a wealth redistribution system. It certainly is not going to make the industry collapse. It hadn't done so before and is unlikely to ever pose a threat to anything else other than publisher's profits despite all fuzz they rise about the issue. And the fact that I can play whatever I want for free never stopped me from buying games.

 

This thread deals specifically with P:E which isn't being invested in through a publisher. The only "suits" here are the developers of the game and us, the backers and gamers.

[BBMorti]

What makes your OP retarded in simple terms is that it essentially utilizes the same strategy that, for example, governments use to take away peoples freedoms by pointing to something horrible some other people have done.

A pirate, like a terrorist is a stupid argument to base an action on that hurts people who are not pirates or terrorists.

 

What freedom is that exactly? The freedom to infringe on copyright? The freedom to rain on our parade? I imagine you would be much more tired of people making demands on these forums if they believed that they didn't have to support Obsidian (by buying or backing) and yet continued to make demands. Am I wrong on that assumption?

 

I didn't equate all pirates to being all terrorists. I asked for public support in limiting and deterring PE piracy. Apparently I've come and rained on your parade by "demanding" that.

 

If you cant decipher that is it meant less literally than that, then I wont be able to explain it to you.

*woooooosh* is the sound of how correct your assumption are.

 

I take it that you have no more "arguments" to make and have now continued to waste other readers' time by using ad hominem attacks. Very well. I'll use this space to make my case again. Pirates hurt us the gamers, because they disuade developers from making PC-only single player games. What we are left with is console hand-me-downs which many of us here on the forums have hated (see DA2-bashing threads). For us to demand better games from developers and then when we are given an opportunity through a kickstarted game to not ask pirates to stop, we are continuing this trend of PC-only single player trash. The one or two games a year is insufficient. We as players (and backers) need to do something.

I would not consider it useful to consider it ad hominem attacks every time you could not grasp/understand something. Unless you think you understand everything.

[Heresiarch]

Calling INSURANCE FRAUD piracy or theft is kinda stale. I suggest we call it sodomy, rape or murder to shame them evil bastards into sympathy for the INSURANCE industry. Because that's how it works, right?

 

Now, the only entities really hurt by INSURANCE FRAUD are the INSURERS. That is if we disregard all the weird conjectures how INSURANCE FRAUD increases the purchase price of INSURANCE POLICIES and the like. I mean, if you think that the moment INSURANCE FRAUD is gone, the INSURERS will just go on and decrease prices to make customers happy instead of writing out fat bonus checks for the CEO and upper management, you might be living in a parallel universe.

 

Thought I'd try a bit of comparison. Insurance fraud in the auto accident arena increases premiums from honest motorists. We all still drive, but we have to pay a little more so thieves can enjoy a little extra money. That's OK then.

Wow. It's like comparing apples to nazi oranges.

 

You know how the insurance premiums are calculated? Do you know how video game price is calculated? I know you don't or you wouldn't have been equating them. So knock yourself out, research the topic and then we can argue some more.

[Heresiarch]

This thread deals specifically with P:E which isn't being invested in through a publisher. The only "suits" here are the developers of the game and us, the backers and gamers.

Well, the let me reiterate my statement.

 

While people, who pirate PE, certainly aren't getting any love from me, I don't support any zero tolerance policy against them based on the fact that they chose to pirate the game that I backed and they didn't. I think the whole point of crowd-sourcing game budget is to make the game and not to make huge profits from sales. So why bother with all the hate?

[BBMorti]

This thread doesn't belong here, it belongs in computer and console. Tacking it onto P:E the way you have doesn't really change that.

 

It's a subject that's been kicked to death more than Romance. It's also a subject that breeds more mendacity and dis-ingenuousness than any other.

 

Bottom line: some cheapskates want something for nothing. Other folks don't. The first group kill creativity and innovation. The second do not. I've chosen my side.

You gotta love logic like this :D

 

Bottom line: "pulls an absolute statement out of arse" "I've chosen my side"

[jivex5k]

Here's a prime example of what can go wrong with DRM:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/182558/GameMaker_DRM_goes_berserk_defaces_dev_work.php

 

Just because someone is anti DRM doesn't mean they are pro piracy.

It's that they want a restriction/hassle free experience.

 

I'll never buy a song on Itunes because I still don't own it after I buy it, I'm just leasing it from apple for a one time fee.

Lord help you if you wanna transfer the media you pay for to another device or mp3 player...

 

There's no reason for personal attacks or hate in this thread.

 

People have their own opinions, and calling someones opinion dumb is a sure fire way to raise their hackles and have them less willing to engage in a thoughtful discussion.

 

No one who backed this game wants to see it pirated, but it's inevitable.

Intrusive DRM will only encourage more piracy, since it's all inevitably cracked for single player games, and it could be easier to pirate than legitimately obtain the game.