Two handed swords

[Haerski]

I completely agree with OP that realism is never bad thing. I'm not really expert in swordfighting either, but one thing I know huge bodybuilders swinging swords, axes or hammers size of a small house is not cool at all. Just stupid.

 

Second I have seen some videos and woodcarvings of full armored people wielding sword with other hand on grip and other holding from near the point of the blade. Maybe to protect the blade from damage and gain precision and balance, which I imagine were two key elements in fighting full armor against full armor. After all if you stumble in middle of fight wearing that armor you are pretty much dead and otherwise only way of hurting your enemy is to hit very small areas of weaker armor. It would be fun to see this style also in games even if it's not 'cool' in WoW-sense. Smashing and slashing just gets boring over time.

 

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlfrmCUGoKE

 

----

 

Question for experts: What exact type was Narsil from LOTR movie trilogy? It had two-handed grip, but seemed still pretty usable... even with one hand.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Haerski

[ArcaneBoozery]

Though its true that 2-handed swords were not used much before the reneissance, their use was wider than breaking up spearman formations. Remember also that PE is in the Reneissance, although maybe not culturally, technologically we have gunpowder and the Full Plate, which was not in use before, you guessed it, the Reneissance.

 

...

 

 

“In the infantry unit, the German and Swiss Landsknechts positioned the Doppelsöldner (Soldiers who received double pay for wielding the two-handers) in the front ranks for a long time to strike down the opposing pikes and to hack out breaches into which one's own soldiers could penetrate. However it would become unusable, as soon as the opposing forces collided with one another, and there would be increased pressure from the back ranks onto the front ranks, which created a thick melee.” Thus, “sometime around the middle of the 16th century it (the two-hander) disappeared from war and mutated into a form of guard and ceremonial weapon with a symbolic character.”

 

Sounds like they were mostly used against pikemen, since hacking out breaches in defenses would likely throw them at pikemen/spearmen (those were the most common defensive troops), but the overall point (supported by your quotes) is that this was a specialized weapon meant to serve certain roles on the battlefield. This is similar to how knights used lances on horseback, for a very specialized function. But expecting to see an adventurer carrying a lance or a greatsword around as an all-purpose weapon is completely different. From your quote: "However it would become unusable, as soon as the opposing forces collided with one another". Well, while adventuring, one would guess that you often have to fight inside buildings or caves or dungeons or tightly packed forests or groups of people, and such a weapon hardly seems practical. Also, it seems to be mostly an offensive weapon, as its increased size and mass would probably put the wielder at a disadvantage while defending/parrying blows, so if faced with an oppponent using a smaller sword, if he managed to dodge/sidestep/block your initial blow, you would probably be at his mercy.

[metacontent]

That's a great video thanks for sharing.

 

I've done my fair share of sword fighting/training.

 

Those guys have great control.

 

 

Weapon of choice: Ninjutsu style short sword.

[Merlkir]

Question for experts: What exact type was Narsil from LOTR movie trilogy? It had two-handed grip, but seemed still pretty usable... even with one hand.

 

Pretty much a typical longsword. (as were Glamdring and the Nazgul swords) John Howe knows his medieval swords.

[Dream]

Honestly, I don't think anyone here is saying or expecting this to be a hard-core, super realistic combat simulator. It's more likely they'd be backing CLANG or something, rather than this if they were. What we are trying to say is just that we'd rather see swords like these: https://encrypted-tb...XNbmtv9JjHcrUd- rather than swords like these: https://encrypted-tb...LUok9lumU-1MeAw. That's all,

 

Why not both?

[Karranthain]

Honestly, I don't think anyone here is saying or expecting this to be a hard-core, super realistic combat simulator. It's more likely they'd be backing CLANG or something, rather than this if they were. What we are trying to say is just that we'd rather see swords like these: https://encrypted-tb...XNbmtv9JjHcrUd- rather than swords like these: https://encrypted-tb...LUok9lumU-1MeAw. That's all,

 

Why not both?

 

Because if two civilizations came across each other, my money would definitely be on the one which arms its soldiers with working implements of war (i.e. the swords in the first example).

[HansKrSG]

Though its true that 2-handed swords were not used much before the reneissance, their use was wider than breaking up spearman formations. Remember also that PE is in the Reneissance, although maybe not culturally, technologically we have gunpowder and the Full Plate, which was not in use before, you guessed it, the Reneissance.

 

...

 

 

“In the infantry unit, the German and Swiss Landsknechts positioned the Doppelsöldner (Soldiers who received double pay for wielding the two-handers) in the front ranks for a long time to strike down the opposing pikes and to hack out breaches into which one's own soldiers could penetrate. However it would become unusable, as soon as the opposing forces collided with one another, and there would be increased pressure from the back ranks onto the front ranks, which created a thick melee.” Thus, “sometime around the middle of the 16th century it (the two-hander) disappeared from war and mutated into a form of guard and ceremonial weapon with a symbolic character.”

 

Sounds like they were mostly used against pikemen, since hacking out breaches in defenses would likely throw them at pikemen/spearmen (those were the most common defensive troops), but the overall point (supported by your quotes) is that this was a specialized weapon meant to serve certain roles on the battlefield. This is similar to how knights used lances on horseback, for a very specialized function. But expecting to see an adventurer carrying a lance or a greatsword around as an all-purpose weapon is completely different. From your quote: "However it would become unusable, as soon as the opposing forces collided with one another". Well, while adventuring, one would guess that you often have to fight inside buildings or caves or dungeons or tightly packed forests or groups of people, and such a weapon hardly seems practical. Also, it seems to be mostly an offensive weapon, as its increased size and mass would probably put the wielder at a disadvantage while defending/parrying blows, so if faced with an oppponent using a smaller sword, if he managed to dodge/sidestep/block your initial blow, you would probably be at his mercy.

 

Though I partially agree with you, the melee of a full battle, is something completely different from the melee of a few people (which is the basis for rpgs), where you can move backwards, and to each side. Maybe we can meet and do a one-on-one battle, where you use a longsword, and I a 2-handed sword, and lets see where it takes us?(If you are a HEMA veteran, I will give you the victory, it was said in jest, truly, don't hit me with your sword please ) I also disagree by using human history as a basis for a fantasy role playing game. Some things were done because it worked better, but some things were done because of other reasons, like the cruciform crossguards. In a world where small parties roam the country killing fantasy monsters, a 2-hander could very well work for those who use it.

 

Late edit (instead of making a new post): another quote from the page I used in my first post on this topic;

 

"Accordingly, just as with its shorter single-hand cousins, the late 15th and early 16th century two-handed greatsword was not a crude excessively heavy bludgeoning weapon but a fairly agile and balanced weapon designed for close-combat in war and occasional duel."

Edited October 26, 2012 by HansKrSG

[Karkarov]

Well thanks for the detailed descriptions, although I never claimed to be an expert on swordplay, and neither should you , since your claims run counter to what people that actually work with these swords think (see 2nd link in my previous post for details). But you are missing my general point, which is not to make the combat super duper complex to make it uber realistic, but to simply adopt a fun historical alternative to the Conan type cliche of 2-handers we have now in every game.

Being as I once held an actual replica of the original sword used in "Conan The Barbarian" I have to ask.... You do know it was only about 3 3.5 foot long right? The only reason it was heavy was because the handle was much larger than it needed to be and the blade was very thick and wide. The blade itself was no longer than a standard arming sword.

 

So please stop saying the word "Conan" because "Conan" did not use some gigantic over the top weapon that required two hands. Arnold even uses it one handed in many of the scenes in the movie. Thinking back other than the one guy who used that ridiculous hammer and maybe the basketball player in the second one the only thing unrealistic about the weapons in those movies is how ornate they were.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Karkarov

[ArcaneBoozery]

Though I partially agree with you, the melee of a full battle, is something completely different from the melee of a few people (which is the basis for rpgs), where you can move backwards, and to each side. Maybe we can meet and do a one-on-one battle, where you use a longsword, and I a 2-handed sword, and lets see where it takes us?(If you are a HEMA veteran, I will give you the victory, it was said in jest, truly, don't hit me with your sword please ) I also disagree by using human history as a basis for a fantasy role playing game. Some things were done because it worked better, but some things were done because of other reasons, like the cruciform crossguards. In a world where small parties roam the country killing fantasy monsters, a 2-hander could very well work for those who use it.

 

No, I will spare you my uber fencing skills, especially since I already mentioned in this thread that most of my knowledge comes from reading about it, not actual practice. As far as using human history as basis for games, the point was that there are already a ton of RPGs out there that go with the giant greatsword approach (Bethesda games, Gothic games, The Witcher, etc), I am sure it won't kill any of you protesters if PE was one of the few that displayed two handed sword fighting with smaller longsword-type swords, which was the typical way it was done.

[ArcaneBoozery]

Being as I once held an actual replica of the original sword used in "Conan The Barbarian" I have to ask.... You do know it was only about 3 3.5 foot long right? The only reason it was heavy was because the handle was much larger than it needed to be and the blade was very thick and wide. The blade itself was no longer than a standard arming sword.

 

So please stop saying the word "Conan" because "Conan" did not use some gigantic over the top weapon that required two hands. Arnold even uses it one handed in many of the scenes in the movie. Thinking back other than the one guy who used that ridiculous hammer and maybe the basketball player in the second one the only thing unrealistic about the weapons in those movies is how ornate they were.

 

Hhhmm, yeah it's been a while since I saw that movie, so for some reason I kept picturing him with a greatsword, but I looked at it now on youtube, and you are right, he was a bad example to use. I probably associated him with it because Arnold was a big muscled dude. Anyways, the points still stand, but I won't use Conan as an example anymore.

[HansKrSG]

No, I will spare you my uber fencing skills, especially since I already mentioned in this thread that most of my knowledge comes from reading about it, not actual practice. As far as using human history as basis for games, the point was that there are already a ton of RPGs out there that go with the giant greatsword approach (Bethesda games, Gothic games, The Witcher, etc), I am sure it won't kill any of you protesters if PE was one of the few that displayed two handed sword fighting with smaller longsword-type swords, which was the typical way it was done.

 

The worst part is, I think the great 2-handed swords often used in rpgs are silly as well. Still, I don't think the presence of 2-handed swords, which were in actual use, would do anything negative to the game. Lets say the enemies and NPC's of the world really seldom use these weapons, then if someone wants his character in a single player game too use this weapon, why not? I would agree that it shouldn't be common, but I can't agree that it shouldn't be an option for your character. I think in basis we almost agreeing, just not quite

[Adhin]

Ahh im way to lazy atm to actually read the replies so sorry if this has all been said before in here but DnD makes the distinction in longsword (or broadsword) and bastard swords (hand and a half) which are what a lot of folks, currently or back then, refer to as longswords. To me this is just the whole katana thing, people seemed to suck balls at classifying stuff by names like we do now and days. Everything that gets made gets a specific name or code attached to it so its never confused with another similar thing. Back then, for the most part, anything that was over 2 feet was a 'longsword'... didn't matter what handle it had.

 

In DnD, because we love calssifying stuff so much and games need a more defined setting, Longsword (or broadsword) was a Viking Broadsword in general use. Always 1H only, though you could always of gotten a custom made one in PnP with a longer handle if you wanted to use it like a bastard sword. Which brings me to a bastard sword in DnD which is what a lot of folks call Longswords now and back then. But really that was the only distinction back then, how long was the blade. Short, or Long, throw sword on the end. Had little to do with the handle. You had more specialized stuff, bastard swords where often longer then your average longsword and always had a hand-and a half grip + full pummel.

 

My point is, getting hitched up about 'classifying weapons' about a period that failed wildly at actually classifying there OWN weapons is nitpicking a non-existent nit. Whatever that is. In DnD's worlds they classify stuff, in cRPG's we classify stuff with IN that world in away that we actually would right now because its what makes sense to us and, well game rules and all that... easier to balance. Oh and as for Blunt weapons in DnD they all had a x2 modifier on crit (less crit potential then the rest) except in a few rarer cases but where the least 'resisted' dmg type. Slash, and pierce in comparison where resisted heavily by a lot of different enemy types (and could be applied to armor). That's where the big difference came from in that at least. A Mace did same basic dmg, usedyour STR the same way, and ultimately had ****tier crit potential... but unlike a sword you where, 9 times outa 10, going to always get your damage. Which, in the end, is pretty close to the real lifes and its close enough for a game.

 

-edit-

Oh and the video, that's DnD bastard sword classification. Every class that started with martial could only use bastard swords as 2H (in PnP) except fighters came pre-equipped with using a bastard in 1H as part of there martial training. Other classes (like a barb or paladin) had to buy Exotic: Bastard to use a bastard in 1 hand. Anything bigger was a 'greatsword' or claymore. Which where used on infantry, the claymore that is. Though a lot of greatswords go into the crazy fantasy world of 2h swords for sure which is silly but they're always magic so... magic!

 

-Double-edit-

Oh and cRPG are notorious at failing to give those PnP options so I agree more options is good! ToEE did a good job at allowing that. They even allowed you to tie a buckler to your arm at a -1 AB while using a 2-handed weapon which I liked. I got faith they'll allow approachs like that, and if not, yo Obsidian... totally allow those kind of options!

Edited October 26, 2012 by Adhin

[ArcaneBoozery]

The worst part is, I think the great 2-handed swords often used in rpgs are silly as well. Still, I don't think the presence of 2-handed swords, which were in actual use, would do anything negative to the game. Lets say the enemies and NPC's of the world really seldom use these weapons, then if someone wants his character in a single player game too use this weapon, why not? I would agree that it shouldn't be common, but I can't agree that it shouldn't be an option for your character. I think in basis we almost agreeing, just not quite

 

Well, ideally it would be nice, of course, if there was every kind of weapon in a game along with the associated weapon style, but given real world limitations in terms of time and money, I seriously doubt PE will have that, so if they put in Greatswords into the game, along with longswords/bastard swords, all of them will have to use the same fighting style. And if that's the case, chances are it's going to be the "hit slow but hard" style we already have in all of those other games, just because of how large those greatswords are. Since I personally would prefer a style oriented toward parrying, dodging, disarming and finesse type moves, I would love it if PE just concentrated on the smaller two handers such as longswords/bastard swords. Btw, here is an excellent example of the kind of two handed combat I would love to see in PE and in games in general:

 

From the movie "First Knight", fast forward to about 1:20:

[villain of the story]

I will be overjoyed if Obsidian can do only the following two things:

 

- Avoid resorting to the ridiculous cliche where bigger the weapon, the slower but "harder" it hits.

 

- Amour that actually does what it's supposed to: protect where it requires skill -NOT large damage- to get through the armor to hurt an opponent. I cringe hard every time I see dudes in plate killing each other with lame sword cuts that aren't supposed to cut through anything at all, in films and in games.

 

I will be particularly disappointed if they don't take anything from Darklands -allegedly Sawyer's favourite RPG- in terms of damage and weapon mechanics.

[villain of the story]

By the way, the OP seems to be unaware of the many longsword classifications. Functionally, medieval and late Renaissance swords today are called divided as one handed, one-and-a-half handed and two handed. You might also find it worth your time to familiarise yourself with "Oakeshott typology", simply for the sake of learning:

 

http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/oakeshott-typology.htm

http://www.oakeshott.org/home.html

[Stun]

Did any1 ever meet a player who had flail or mace as a favorite weapon?

I've done many a BG2 playthrough with Grandmastery in Flails. Flail of the Ages, you know. Very useful weapon in that game.

 

And in IWD2, Mace was probably the best weapon-type to specialize in.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Stun

[Merlkir]

See, THIS is useful and contributes something:

 

I will be overjoyed if Obsidian can do only the following two things:

 

- Avoid resorting to the ridiculous cliche where bigger the weapon, the slower but "harder" it hits.

 

- Amour that actually does what it's supposed to: protect where it requires skill -NOT large damage- to get through the armor to hurt an opponent. I cringe hard every time I see dudes in plate killing each other with lame sword cuts that aren't supposed to cut through anything at all, in films and in games.

 

I will be particularly disappointed if they don't take anything from Darklands -allegedly Sawyer's favourite RPG- in terms of damage and weapon mechanics.

 

while THIS:

By the way, the OP seems to be unaware of the many longsword classifications. Functionally, medieval and late Renaissance swords today are called divided as one handed, one-and-a-half handed and two handed. You might also find it worth your time to familiarise yourself with "Oakeshott typology", simply for the sake of learning:

 

http://www.albion-sw...tt-typology.htm

http://www.oakeshott.org/home.html

 

is just posting to pick at the OP about something that doesn't really matter. Classifications don't really change what swords are and how they're used. As mentioned, the use of "longsword" for one handed swords is a DnD trope, HEMA people use it for swords handled mainly with two hands. Larger swords are usually called greatswords, or swords of war.

 

Does it matter? Nope.

 

An oh wow, you know of Oakeshott's typology, gee, you must be an expert. Or not. How many people here actually remember which type is which? I don't. If I wanted to communicate a very specific type of a historical sword to someone, sure, I'd go see an Oakeshott website and find out which type of pommel, crosspiece and blade it is.

 

Does it do anything for PE? Not really.

 

Still, thanks for those links I guess, some people here may be not aware of this.

[TrashMan]

These swords were not meant to be used in sword fighting or duels, as they were too large and heavy to use against an opposing sword fighter.

 

Incorrect

Greatswords actaully were used in duels.

 

On top of that, they were never hung from the back, as it is physically impossible to remove a weapon of that length from the scabbard on one's back (the arm won't go that far, there are some youtube videos on this). Instead, they were simply carried over the shoulder, like a spear.

 

Actually you could carry them on the back. But not in a scabbard. You could hook them at the crossguard.

 

 

 

Anyway, I guess it's not a huge thing or anything, but given the developers' track record of fighting cliches and established approaches, I would love it if PE allowed longswords worn at the hip to be the two handed sword of choice instead of the typical greatsword, which would not only be more realistic and historically accurate, but also possibly lead to more finesse oriented two handed styles as opposed to the typical "swing slower but hit harder" approach.

 

 

MEh.

Edited October 29, 2012 by TrashMan

[villain of the story]

By the way, the OP seems to be unaware of the many longsword classifications. Functionally, medieval and late Renaissance swords today are called divided as one handed, one-and-a-half handed and two handed. You might also find it worth your time to familiarise yourself with "Oakeshott typology", simply for the sake of learning:

 

http://www.albion-sw...tt-typology.htm

http://www.oakeshott.org/home.html

 

is just posting to pick at the OP about something that doesn't really matter.

 

Posting to "pick" at the OP? Calm down and get a perspective. It's merely meant to be a scholarly point of interest for someone who seems to have a curiosity in swordsmanship beyond cliched tropes. Not a call to arms to include historical minutia details in PE.

 

I must, however, add that, being a detailed study in the field of actual research as opposed to armchair nerdistry over internet, it does actually matter, though of course not in the sense it matters to most games or Project Eternity.

 

Classifications don't really change what swords are and how they're used.

 

Of course not, it's the other way around: the different ways things are or have been utilised lead to classifications and they help us understand things by putting things into perspective. Once again, not relevant to most games or PE here.

 

As mentioned, the use of "longsword" for one handed swords is a DnD trope, HEMA people use it for swords handled mainly with two hands. Larger swords are usually called greatswords, or swords of war.

 

Cool story, bro.

 

Does it matter? Nope.

 

Which just got cooler.

 

An oh wow, you know of Oakeshott's typology, gee, you must be an expert. Or not.

 

Don't be that guy.

 

How many people here actually remember which type is which?

 

HERE, of all places? I would expect a total of zero other people to even know of such a typological study. It's pretty esoteric even by the standards of most students of medieval martial arts.

 

I don't.

 

Well, we can't all be perfect, you know. After all, I doubt even the medieval fighters were so very aware of it all, so don't sweat it.

 

If I wanted to communicate a very specific type of a historical sword to someone, sure, I'd go see an Oakeshott website and find out which type of pommel, crosspiece and blade it is.

 

Good for you. I hope you will find it useful under the unlikely situation that you will need it.

 

Does it do anything for PE? Not really.

 

Indeed.

 

Still, thanks for those links I guess, some people here may be not aware of this.

 

Some? I doubt if even a few is.

 

Bottom line, I don't know why you thought of my links to Oakeshott with regard to PE and gave such a knee-jerk reaction, even though the links were explicity addressed at the OP, since he showcased a deeper interest than cliched tropes. So the next time, try to keep the attitude in line and there will be no hostile derailments.

 

Note: quote block limit is ridiculous.

[moridin84]

The problem, as I see it, is that this is going to be an isometric game. I don't think having overly 'realistic weapons' really suits that kinda perspective.

[Kilroy_Was_Here]

I don't know what the big deal is about two handed swords. What I want to know is... where are the four handed swords? Would you want to be the blacksmith to tell a Shokan warrior 'Sorry, I don't have anything in your size'? Didn't think so.

 

[villain of the story]

The problem, as I see it, is that this is going to be an isometric game. I don't think having overly 'realistic weapons' really suits that kinda perspective.

 

And will you perhaps explain the relevance between the game being isometric and the level of authenticity of weapons? I don't see one. Was anyone somehow asking for a realistic physics simulation of weapons or something like that?

 

Ultimately, we aren't asking for "overly" realistic weapons. We are only asking for reasonably realistic weapons instead of NON-RIDICULOUS weapons that has been the staple.

Edited October 29, 2012 by villain of the story

[Stun]

I don't know what the big deal is about two handed swords. What I want to know is... where are the four handed swords? Would you want to be the blacksmith to tell a Shokan warrior 'Sorry, I don't have anything in your size'? Didn't think so.

 

Bah... If I had 4 arms I wouldn't specialize in greatswords. I'd be dual wielding...er... Quad wielding 1 handed weapons. lol

[moridin84]

The problem, as I see it, is that this is going to be an isometric game. I don't think having overly 'realistic weapons' really suits that kinda perspective.

 

And will you perhaps explain the relevance between the game being isometric and the level of authenticity of weapons? I don't see one. Was anyone somehow asking for a realistic physics simulation of weapons or something like that?

 

Ultimately, we aren't asking for "overly" realistic weapons. We are only asking for reasonably realistic weapons instead of NON-RIDICULOUS weapons that has been the staple.

Because the camera distance is quite far you don't really see weapons in much detail.

[Rink]

I agree with something HansKrSG said in other words: If you make a fantasygame, then realism comes from the world you created and not from our middle ages. So when you have people that are bigger than humans (orks, half-orks) and every fighter has the muscles of arnold schwarzenegger, then big swords can be handled efficiently even though they are very heavy. If you fight against hordes of stupid animals that stand around you and only attack you sometimes instead of just jumping you, throwing you to the ground and biting you until you are dead may also help with making sharp long two sided weapons you can swing even though it takes time.

 

Of course very big swords weren't usual in our middle ages. Not only because of strength, but probably also because you have to carry them everywhere (what makes you tired even when not fighting) and I would suspect they hinder you while walking when you put them on your back and they are longer than the length from your head to your knees. On horseback they have to be even shorter I guess. Of course japanese style weapons (and hair colors!) aren't what I want to see in a game, but how Baldurs Gate did it was ok for me. Also I would like to visually see the difference between different weapon types.

 

I like the ideas about one handed/two handed wielding and weapontypes giving more than just different damage numbers and speeds. But in the end the system has to be simple enough for me to understand what the weapon is doing and what the difference between two weapons are. Then I am happy. ^^