Flagellants for.. atmosphere? Or Monks for repetition?

[jezz555]

I'm honestly not a huge fan of the way they made the monk look. I mean in AD&D monks were supposed to be shaolin monks but by the later editions they just stopped making sense. If he's supposed to be a european styled monk which it looks like he is because he isn't asian, they should have made him look like friar tuck or something but it looks like he's just the typical 3-4th ed white-guy who somehow knows kung-fu. I say make him some kind of dark creepy self-mutilation guy(flagellant) or make him asian or something, because I'm not really feeling the whole old-punchy guy thing.

[Cultist]

This thread reeks with Warhammer)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2012 by Cultist

[Osvir]

So Osvir, how has Forton been confirmed as a flagellant?

 

Well I have no proof to back it up but I was pretty sure that Obsidian has stated in one of the updates (I can't find the information now which is weird, I'm sure I saw it)...

 

Found it! The PC Gamer interview:

http://www.pcgamer.c...dian-live-chat/

Josh Sawyer: we're actually pretty early in developing the companion ideas and i want to work more with george and avellone on fleshing out their story arcs. i don't remember the order in which each class was unlocked, but one of them was forton, the monk. forton is a big believer in mortification of the flesh. and the use of mind-expanding drugs. we won't be having companions for every single class, but that's one of the reasons we wanted to develop the adventurer's hall. that will allow you to supplement/build your party however you would like.

 

It doesn't nearly state that he is a Flagellant, but it hints that he is influenced by it. A combination between Kung Fu+Flagellant.

 

What Aedelric said pretty much, so is Forton a Kung-Fu Monk or a Flagellant Kung-Fu Monk? Is he part of a sub-class, or is he the main class?

 

Could more be done with Flagellant, versus Monk, in terms of sub-classes?

 

Concept, what I am curious about here is all the other sub-classes that spawns from each of these respectively, not the Martial Monk:

 

Monk

* Magical Monk; Using Magic to get flaming fists~ casting mid-range magic~ Diablo 3.

* Martial Monk; Close combat fighter, Kung-Fu. Forton.

* Healer Monk; Healer/Priest, Buffer, mender of the soul

* Gun Monk; ??

 

Flagellant:

* Magical Flagellant; Casting magic on and from him/herself, body could be the Grimoire which the Flagellant writes their spells on.

* Martial Flagellant; Forton, Kung-Fu.

* Healer Flagellant; Doctor-type, mender of the body

* Gun Flagellant; Persona anyone? xD

 

To counter-nitpick, per definition, a Paladin could be a Monk.

 

I always thought of a Paladin as a rules lawyer that was a stickler for following some specific code of conduct particular to his knightly order. Sort of an embodiment of said code.

 

Monks struck me more as the reflecting type that observe and learn through observing and thinking (or meditation) and learn to master their own minds and bodies through exercise and discipline. Being good at martial arts is just a bonus from such mastery.

 

Edit: Being a Warhammer fan, a flagellant will always remind me of raving lunatics running around with bloodied naked torsos, whipping themselves while screaming "Repent!" and "We are all doomed!"

 

Absolutely, but according to the definition (on Wikipedia) of what a Monk is, it is someone following religious asceticism. I was just being nitpicky a la it could be per definition (in the real world), doesn't necessarily have to be. A Fighter could be a Monk, a Rogue too. A Priest is a given. Being a Monk is tied to religion:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk

A monk, is a person who practices religious asceticism, living either alone or with any number of other monks. A monk may be a person who decided to dedicate his life to serve the other living beings or to be an ascetic who voluntarily chooses to leave mainstream society and live his life in prayer and contemplation. The concept is ancient and can be seen in many religions and in philosophy.

 

Also, I have no clue about Warhammer lore. I know a little 40k so I wouldn't know.

 

The idea is to change the name from Monk to Flagellant, seeing as that's what we are getting from Obsidian in Forton.

 

Should the Monk in P:E be called "Flagellant" instead?

Flagellant: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Flagellant

Flagellants are practioners of an extreme form of mortification of their own flesh by whipping it with various instruments.

I belive you used wrong link for what you had in mind.

http://www.games-wor...questid=1675683 (is it OK with forum rules to use such links?)

When war threatens, bands of crazed Flagellants instinctively gravitate towards battlefields, appearing unannounced and charging headlong towards the enemy without fear or hesitation. Flagellants fight in a crazed frenzy, driven insane by the horrors the world has inficted upon them and desperate for their pain to end.

 

I used the right link alright, because I was after the historical aspects of the Flagellant, not the fiction one in Warhammer (that I didn't even know existed). Though that's cool information too.

 

Here's another link, on mortification on the flesh which I think is better:

http://en.wikipedia....on_of_the_flesh

Edited October 25, 2012 by Osvir

[Osvir]

http://en.wikipedia....tion_(theology)

More information. Edit time ran out.

 

EDIT:

Monk: Allows open/more lore, Asian, European, American, African etc. etc. taken into account. More coverage of "What is a Monk?". More vague lore for what could become a vague Class. * Generic, used everywhere in what many feels is the "wrong" just like the role of the Rogue (which has become associated with being a backstabbing Assassin/Thief)

* Magical Monk; Using Magic to get flaming fists~ casting mid-range magic~ Diablo 3.

* Martial Monk; Close combat fighter, Kung-Fu. Forton.

* Healer Monk; Healer/Priest, Buffer, mender of the soul

* Gun Monk; ??

 

Flagellant: Allows for specific lore, likewise to that of a Chanter, Paladin or a Cipher. Class titles specific to their class. * Darker, more mature. Fits well with what we know about P:E.

* Magical Flagellant; Casting magic on and from him/herself, body could be the Grimoire which the Flagellant writes their spells on.

* Martial Flagellant; Forton, Kung-Fu.

* Healer Flagellant; Doctor-type, mender of the body, "Voodoo"

* Gun Flagellant; Persona anyone? xD

Edited October 25, 2012 by Osvir

[JFSOCC]

Too obscure. How about Dervishes?

Unless Obsidian has the manpower to fend off a Jihad from the extremist I would recommend they stay way from Muslim imagery.

Guild Wars has a dervish class and somehow they seem to be unbothered.

[JOG]

A monk is someone who renounced certain aspects of life, first and foremost social contacts and choice of lodging, out of religious reasons.

 

The classic eastern (kung-fu) monks seek enligthement by attaining perfection of body, the classic western monks seek enlightenment by humble work.

 

A flagallant is someone who whips himself out of religious reasons (as penance for sins or as a way to fiind enlightenment) it was used among western monks very often as a means to suppress / pay penance for sexual thoughts, their eastern brethren are too exhausted to even think about such stuff, but this doesn't mean it's something every western monk does, or only (western) monks do.

 

If you want a western monk in the fashion of Friar Tuck, "Friar" is the word to be used instead of "Monk", Friars are wandering monks that own no property and rely on charity for their livelihood, and offer blessings (or no beatings in case of Tuck) in exchange. Some may be flagallants, but that shouldn't be the defining main trait of a class.

Edited October 25, 2012 by JOG

[JFSOCC]

So we're arguing semantics now?

[JOG]

Well this thread is about semantics.

 

It's about avoiding to call western monks "monks" because A.) the "monk" was a kung fu fighter with little to no religious background in all games that were released in the past decade, and B) monk is a general term for a cloistered religious person, which includes chivalric orders like the Templars or even cloistered member of an evil cult.

 

And since clerics are always healer-knights as everyone knows, this thread looks for another name for a wandering cleric who is neither a parish pastor nor a Shaolin priest.

 

Calling them "flagallants" is like calling barbarians "drunkards" and druids "tree-huggers", yes it's something they might do more often than the average person, and it's fine as an in-universe stereotype assigned to that class, but it's not a good class name.

Edited October 25, 2012 by JOG

[Osvir]

A monk is someone who renounced certain aspects of life, first and foremost social contacts and choice of lodging, out of religious reasons.

 

The classic eastern (kung-fu) monks seek enligthement by attaining perfection of body, the classic western monks seek enlightenment by humble work.

 

A flagallant is someone who whips himself out of religious reasons (as penance for sins or as a way to fiind enlightenment) it was used among western monks very often as a means to suppress / pay penance for sexual thoughts, their eastern brethren are too exhausted to even think about such stuff, but this doesn't mean it's something every western monk does, or only (western) monks do.

 

If you want a western monk in the fashion of Friar Tuck, "Friar" is the word to be used instead of "Monk", Friars are wandering monks that own no property and rely on charity for their livelihood, and offer blessings (or no beatings in case of Tuck) in exchange. Some may be flagallants, but that shouldn't be the defining main trait of a class.

 

I like that a lot (and what you say in the other post too), Friar sounds about right for the atmosphere too

 

EDIT: However, this thread started making me wonder "How important is it?" really and why should Monks get the extra care and treatment? "Fighter" is similarly the same thing no? Why shouldn't the Fighter get the proper treatment and get a more proper "Title" too? I think that is a reasonable thought too...

 

Why it is important, I think, is because specifically being "something" rather than being something being "anything" (Monk/Fighter).

 

I mean, why isn't Chanter a sub-class of Priest? Or even Monk? The first thing I found when I wrote "Chanting" in YouTube was some Eastern Buddhist Monk doing Heart Chants.

 

Friar: More light-hearted than the Flagellant and not necessarily "dark" but it feels authentic to what we know of the P:E world

* Magical Friar: Scribing spells onto his own body, the Grimoire could/would still be his own body "Glyphs" and Seals (When I spoke about Magical Flagellants, I really meant that they would "carve" the spells onto themselves, whilst I envision a Friar doing it more elegantly and artistically by writing like normal men/women a.k.a tattoo's).

* Martial Arts Friar: Flagellant inspired-Forton Kung-Fu

* Healer Friar: Proper "for it's Era" Doctor, without the voodoo stuff I brought up about the Flagellant Healer

Edited October 25, 2012 by Osvir

[Osvir]

Why it is important, I think, is because specifically being "something" rather than being something being "anything" (Monk/Fighter).

 

Nggh, forgot the point xD the point is I think that the world can benefit by having specific named classes for depth.

 

Naming it "Monk" gives it a "Broader" perspective instantly, with many different schools of different religions. Variety can be good yes, but for a setting such as P:E, it could to a start be something specific for this specific Era and World that Obsidian have in mind and later be expanded upon. With the class adhering to a specific "name" (such as "Friar") knowledge about Friar's in P:E can be cultivated and implemented more specifically with a specific story about them. Whilst the "Monk" could require more fleshing out imo.

 

Friar/Flagellant is going into detail of the Monk class, in essence "quality", whilst having the Monk could equal "quantity".

[Grand Heresiarch]

Certainly, there are a wide range of renunciant traditions, but are they all the same? I dont know that I like kung-fu monk or the flagellant. I would like to see monks move away from mystical fist melee or even crazy faith driven melee to more of a support role. A different divine magic user more akin to a Taoist immortal than anything else. I would have them replace the druid class, and get rid of the touchy nature balance drivel and replace it with a more sophisticated philosophical viewpoint akin to wu wei. There would be some similarity with the druid but more of a cosmic balance rather than Greenpeace sort of balance.

 

Plus summoning a giant nameless, uncarved stone to smash things sounds fun.

[Karkarov]

A Flagellant is just someone who beats themselves as a means of expressing their faith. There are people who do this even today and most of them aren't bad ass fighters, martial arts or otherwise. You don't even need to be a priest to be one and many religious psycho's in medieval times went around as self declared prophets beating themselves with spiked whips and all sorts of screwed up crap.

 

Long story short, no. Flagellant in no way equals Monk. The comparison is an extreme stretch based on one NPC who is likely a little wrong in the head.

 

If you want Monks to be something other than "martial artists" just make them traditional monks. Dudes who use staves, wear robes, practice european hand to hand combat, make lots of wine, etc etc.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Karkarov

[Karkarov]

EDIT: However, this thread started making me wonder "How important is it?" really and why should Monks get the extra care and treatment? "Fighter" is similarly the same thing no? Why shouldn't the Fighter get the proper treatment and get a more proper "Title" too? I think that is a reasonable thought too...

Actually Fighter is a darn fine class name. Their role is fighting people with weapons after all. To get more specific implies something. Like "Barbarian" oh so now they have to be some uncultured clod who screams a bunch and probably isn't well educated? "Mercenary" so now they all have to be dirty sell swords who work for money? "Soldier" oh okay so all these dudes served time in the military or the town guard?

 

You see where I am going with this?

 

A "Fighter" can be anything from a farmer who mastered fighting with a staff, to the dirty mercenary out for themselves with a sword and shield, to a former military scout who is a crack shot with the long bow, and even a effete snob nobleman as well educated as any mage who fights with a saber and dagger.

 

PS: Sorry for double post

Edited October 26, 2012 by Karkarov

[Osvir]

Certainly, there are a wide range of renunciant traditions, but are they all the same? I dont know that I like kung-fu monk or the flagellant. I would like to see monks move away from mystical fist melee or even crazy faith driven melee to more of a support role. A different divine magic user more akin to a Taoist immortal than anything else. I would have them replace the druid class, and get rid of the touchy nature balance drivel and replace it with a more sophisticated philosophical viewpoint akin to wu wei. There would be some similarity with the druid but more of a cosmic balance rather than Greenpeace sort of balance.

 

Plus summoning a giant nameless, uncarved stone to smash things sounds fun.

 

I am hoping for something like this too, but in a sub-class type dealio. And it's important (I guess) that the Monk doesn't get too close to the Priest support role.

 

That's why I'm bringing up the Monk, Friar (kudos to JOG), Flagellant thing because... *scratches head, realizes that that's 3 different sub-classes right there* nvm

 

Monk, Friar, Flagellant xD

 

Actually Fighter is a darn fine class name. Their role is fighting people with weapons after all. To get more specific implies something. Like "Barbarian" oh so now they have to be some uncultured clod who screams a bunch and probably isn't well educated? "Mercenary" so now they all have to be dirty sell swords who work for money? "Soldier" oh okay so all these dudes served time in the military or the town guard?

 

Yeah I'm seeing where you're going. Why I brought it up is because we are talking about Monks, and what they are and how they are presented by Obsidian (Forton the Mortificater). It doesn't state that Forton is a Flagellant, but that he is a strong believer in mortification of the flesh (Which is a religious thing, which makes him close to a Flagellant).

 

I agree with the Fighter thing, and I brought it up because there's been a lot of discussion on "Monk" which I believe could relate to "philosophy" and other to European Monks or Eastern Monks. Some talk about Middle-Eastern Monks too. It is a broad class/title with many different variations and sub-meanings depending on where you are and how you see it from your perspective, that's why I think it could benefit to make it specific (e.g., like "Friar").

 

About Fighters, who are equally a broad class, are much more specific already, in my book a Fighter could be a Kung Fu Fighter. What does Kung Fu have anything to do with the Monk?

 

Is Bruce Lee a Fighter or a Monk? Some may say both, and I'd agree, but if you can only choose one of them, dependent on how he is fighting?

Edited October 26, 2012 by Osvir

[.Leif.]

I think the Gun Monk would have to be the Grammaton Cleric (I love Equilibrium).

 

Anyhow I love the conversation we've been having here and I think we're at a good spot to transition into the sub-types of monk we'd like to see and the way we would like to unlock them. Should we pick our sub-class at level one or unlock them at level 6? Is it just one setting you apply and forget or do you drop ranks into different specialties?

 

One such subtype would be the grappler who excels at pinning his or her opponent. What little I know about Varzesh-e Bastani from Persia reminds me of that sort of martial art. Will there be a difference between 'soft' and 'hard' styles in game-play? Can my character learn a sleeper-pinch?

[Shevek]

Why arent we talking about knights being repetitious or Conan like barbarians beiing repetitious? This is all way too subjective. The idea that asian kung fu monks are played out is silly. All the classes in this game have existed in other games very VERY often.

[Grand Heresiarch]

Why arent we talking about knights being repetitious or Conan like barbarians beiing repetitious? This is all way too subjective. The idea that asian kung fu monks are played out is silly. All the classes in this game have existed in other games very VERY often.

 

Great point, certainly most classes in rpgs are little more than recycled fictive tropes. To some degree, this is useful in that is allows players to have some idea of what they are getting into when they select a specific class at the outset. I think what most of the audience here is hoping for is not so much a complete reinvention of classes as demonstrating some greater flexibility within those concepts. I believe that the monk is being singled out because it represents a recurring type that often has the least level of flexibility. A fighter in this game seems like it could use swords or guns or some mix of the two. They could be agile or clumsy and beefy (or a mix again).

But the kung-fu monk is virtually always the same. Mystical punches and lightweight clothing that make designing gear for the class often..problematic (look at how their gear existed in a vacuum in NWN1 and 2). I do not think people are so much against the monk concept, per se, as they are against the recurring lack of flexibility that the monk concept has historically offered.

[Gyor]

Too obscure. How about Dervishes?

Unless Obsidian has the manpower to fend off a Jihad from the extremist I would recommend they stay way from Muslim imagery.

 

RPGs having using the word Dervish and Jinn and other stuff inspired by Islamic culture for ages now. Just stay away from making thier Prophet and they'll be fine.

 

I do like that thier looking away from kung fu mivie for inspiration and remembering that the kung fu stuff is just for self defence, its not the classes focus or main goal. Feel free to take from the wider realm of monastic tradition. It'll still have kung fu though, you need the kung fu.

[Heresiarch]

Well, taking into an account that a monk is a religious ascetic, while a flagellant is a guy who likes beating himself much, I'd go for a monk.

 

A Friar should be better if you go for extra flavor. Suits the class better too, since monks aren't rally supposed to be running around too much.

[Shevek]

I'm sorry, if you can add a gun to a knight, I am sure you can add guns or granados to an Asian monk too (didn't the Chinese use blackpowder before Europe?). The whole flaggelant thing in this thread isn't about flexibility it is the proposition that a european style monk would be more unique or immersive or other such nonsense. In the end, the argument is poorly constructed and based on semantics and opinion.

[Osvir]

I'm sorry, if you can add a gun to a knight, I am sure you can add guns or granados to an Asian monk too (didn't the Chinese use blackpowder before Europe?). The whole flaggelant thing in this thread isn't about flexibility it is the proposition that a european style monk would be more unique or immersive or other such nonsense. In the end, the argument is poorly constructed and based on semantics and opinion.

 

This thread, like any thread in friendly discussion, has evolved. Personally there is no argument for either for or against, I am merely playing with ideas of what could be done for an authentic world like P:E. Friar, or Flagellant, sounds more "authentic":

 

Chanter, Friar, Priest

versus

Chanter, Monk, Priest

versus

Chanter, Flagellant, Priest (Which does feel like an odd combination tbh)

 

EDIT: We are also taking about sub-classes. What is easier to create sub-classes for, respectively:

 

Monk

Friar

Flagellant

 

As well as combinations between the three. Forton seems to be an Asian inspired Monk with a little Flagellant in him. Cool! Now that's Forton, what about our creations? Are we forced to create a Kung-Fu Monk with a little Flagellant in him or do we have options?

 

I think it's interesting to talk about Rogues in this sense too, because many associate the Rogue with a backstabbing Assassin or a sneaky Thief, whilst few look at the Rogue as a Rogue. Likewise I would like to build my Rogue towards becoming more like a Thief, similarly I would like to build my Monk more towards a support role (Stunning, disarming, locking/grappling, knockbacking).

 

We aren't getting any animations for "grappling", doesn't mean that the ability couldn't be in the game and cause a "stunning" effect on your Monk and the enemy he uses the ability on. More of an Aikido Monk, which is an interesting point in itself, how many different martial arts fighting styles are there? A lot. Adhering the Monk class to something specific (Friar or Flagellant) you narrow down all those possibilities of different styled Monks to a few that can be detailed further into the world than the Monk class ever can be in the same sense. I might be utterly wrong of course, I just believe it is harder to implement *shrug*

Edited October 27, 2012 by Osvir

[Rabain]

Well I'm sure in that case they could add a sub-class selection that has absolutely no bearing on anything other than the type of character you want to RP.

 

For example the Monk class could have a Flagellant and Friar subclass, either one is nothing but some flavour text on your character screen. If you choose Flagellant you play the game while hitting yourself and if you choose Friar you play the game while singing some gregorian chants, everyone wins.

[Shevek]

If they allow modding like how you can mod the IE games, just go and edit the term "Monk" and make it "Friar" in the dialog.tlk and there you go. Other than that, this thread is silliness.

 

This thread, like any thread in friendly discussion, has evolved. Personally there is no argument for either for or against, I am merely playing with ideas of what could be done for an authentic world like P:E. Friar, or Flagellant, sounds more "authentic"

 

Friar and Flagellant are certainly more European. Are all asian influences then lacking in authenticity? Should we ensure scimitars, kamas, and the like are excluded to maintain European authenticity?

 

I strongly disagree with the underlying premise of this thread.

 

We aren't getting any animations for "grappling", doesn't mean that the ability couldn't be in the game and cause a "stunning" effect on your Monk and the enemy he uses the ability on. More of an Aikido Monk, which is an interesting point in itself, how many different martial arts fighting styles are there? A lot. Adhering the Monk class to something specific (Friar or Flagellant) you narrow down all those possibilities of different styled Monks to a few that can be detailed further into the world than the Monk class ever can be in the same sense. I might be utterly wrong of course, I just believe it is harder to implement *shrug*

 

I am not even sure what you are trying too say there. The lack of grappling makes ALL martial combatants limited. Knights grappled too.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Shevek

[Rabain]

If they allow modding like how you can mod the IE games, just go and edit the term "Monk" and make it "Friar" in the dialog.tlk and there you go. Other than that, this thread is silliness.

 

Well lets all just pack up shop and stop discussing everything here on the forums because we can make a mod after release to do pretty much everything...this a pretty awful argument for anything. The entire point of the forums being here now is to discuss what will actually be in the game, how it will work, how it could work differently and what every one thinks of each mechanic.

 

 

Friar and Flagellant are certainly more European. Are all asian influences then lacking in authenticity? Should we ensure scimitars, kamas, and the like are excluded to maintain European authenticity?

 

I strongly disagree with the underlying premise of this thread.

 

Another spurious argument. So far everything we have seen has been European flavoured. A reason for offering up Flagellant instead of Monk was proposed, it in no way suggests that every asian influence is inappropriate. For all we know next week will see a lore release outlining some asian themed culture but we haven't seen that yet so people post based on what they have seen.

 

I am not even sure what you are trying too say there. The lack of grappling makes ALL martial combatants limited. Knights grappled too.

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here either. The lack of grappling limits no one, I'm sure all classes will have appropriate abilities to perform on as balanced a platform as Obsidian can devise. All the lack of grappling affects is perhaps the level of visual eye candy for players during combat.

[Shevek]

1. Dude, my point is some guy is arguing over a single string of TEXT.

2. I am not going to get into another tired old argument over the values or pitfalls of eurocentric fantasy worlds. The bottom line is these games have a mix of influences and do not need a "Chi-japano-malaya-land" to make monks "authentic."

3. Whatever. Blame the nonsense of that line of convo on the dude that started it.