[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

I'm just loving this sterling logic. "Well having womyn warriurs is already unrealistic, so they might as well be in stilettos and have boobs bigger than their heasds! Anything else would just be catering to extremists with their man-castrating agenda and take away precious development time!"

You're forgetting that, because women would lose physical fights because they're women, dressing like that allows them to DISTRACT THE ENEMY. Nevermind if the enemy is female, gay, asexual, uninterested in that particular body type, not particularly fond of brunettes, etc.

 

...The "distracting the enemy" excuse is REALLY demeaning to men, actually. The "can't help himself" logic isn't exactly a glowing appraisal of male self-control.

[TheMufflon]

Ad hominem, such as accusing someone of "blatant hypocrisy" or making assumptions about their motives. Asking for a respectful tone is not an ad hominem.

 

Saying that someone has made a hypocritical statement is not an ad hominem, it is an attack against the hypocritical statement. An ad hominem is an attack against the character or motivation of the person making the argument. You are correct in that asking for a respectful tone is not an ad hominem. These, however, are:

 

you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

your posts are being motivated by outright insulting others.

Edited October 20, 2012 by TheMufflon

[Gulliver]

And man, I'm just loving this sterling logic. "Well having women warriors is already unrealistic, so they might as well be in stilettos and have boobs bigger than their heads! Anything else would just be catering to extremists with their man-castrating agenda and take away precious development time!"

 

Said who?

[Moirnelithe]

Ad hominem has now officially been used ad nauseum.

 

Tempus fugit, let's continue on the subject and stop the pissing contests?

[Joukehainen]

Mufflon, Your entire argument seems to be based on the fact that one poster "doesn't know what all women want" and therefore all critical analysis and discussion of the portrayal of women and/or men in some games/movies/whathaveyou is null and void. People on this thread are simply asking for a change from over-sexualized stereotypes to more thoughtful, creative, and deep characters - that's for both male and female characters, as well as any variety on that.

 

The problem with your argument is that you can use that same logic to apply to anything. If people are asking for a move away from racist stereotypes, you could just say "well you don't know what all black/Chinese/Indian/etc people want, so you can't say it's racist or analyse it."

 

If people are asking for the right to vote for women, you could just say "well you don't know that all women want suffrage so why give it to them or discuss it?" As we discussed earlier in the thread, there were in fact (a small number of) women who were against women's suffrage and slaves who opposed liberation, because power structures are held in place by more than just the dominant group.

 

The argument "well you don't speak for all people of social category X!" is the equivalent of "you're not the boss of me!"

 

People also keep saying that they're not trying to remove SEXUALITY, sexiness, or hotness from games or the portrayal of women. They just want to ADD to it.

 

Also, let it be known that you arguing about who made the most ad hominem remarks is an ad hominem remark.

 

Edited October 20, 2012 by Joukehainen

[Nidrolok]

And man, I'm just loving this sterling logic. "Well having women warriors is already unrealistic, so they might as well be in stilettos and have boobs bigger than their heads! Anything else would just be catering to extremists with their man-castrating agenda and take away precious development time!"

 

Said who?

The straw man.

[Joukehainen]

And man, I'm just loving this sterling logic. "Well having women warriors is already unrealistic, so they might as well be in stilettos and have boobs bigger than their heads! Anything else would just be catering to extremists with their man-castrating agenda and take away precious development time!"

 

Said who?

The straw man.

 

That was a joke, a sort of pastiche of various statements made on this thread. Just read it and I promise you'll find them. Such as:

 

But this is fantasy armours we are talking about here, they're all about as protective as an g-string. Since none of the other armours make any god damn sense it would more consistent if there was boob-plate, instead of there being doubts about the functionality and sensibility of the armours all of a sudden.

[DocDoomII]

Speaking of boobs, what about Sagani's as an archer? It's a genuine question. I used to [do archery] in some club, and women usually wore something to flatten one of their breasts.

That's totally not my field, but it seems to me, that a very common way to use to bow is to bring the string to the chin.

Add the fact that she is small, so probably she will not use a longbow, I'd say that she would need to be bowling-ball-breasted to have problem using a bow efficiently.

[Margaretha]

That's totally not my field, but it seems to me, that a very common way to use to bow is to bring the string to the chin.

Add the fact that she is small, so probably she will not use a longbow, I'd say that she would need to be bowling-ball-breasted to have problem using a bow efficiently.

You are right assuming you pull the string close to your chin. But you may check some anatomy -like yours - to notice you do not need "large breasts" to risk some trouble, especially when you release the string.

 

So, it's usually just some piece of leather you wear over your shoulder. You often use such protection around your wrist too.

 

(btw, the string in the drawing is weirdly put)

Edited October 20, 2012 by Margaretha

[Nidrolok]

That was a joke, a sort of pastiche of various statements made on this thread. Just read it and I promise you'll find them.

I fail to see any connection to my argument besides that they are both about armours. You seem to be under the impression that I'm for boobplate which couldn't be further from the truth. I would very much approve of more realistic equipment for the characters if it would be an overreaching effort in all designs and not just the chest armour of one character. Josh argued that the first design was unrealistic and this was the reason for change, this ring very false in my ears since this wasn't an concern when they designed the other characters. More likely is that they wanted to lessen the sexualization of the character, which is fine by me. The problem is the argument for the change, not the change itself.

 

How is this hard to understand?

[Joukehainen]

That was a joke, a sort of pastiche of various statements made on this thread. Just read it and I promise you'll find them.

I fail to see any connection to my argument besides that they are both about armours. You seem to be under the impression that I'm for boobplate which couldn't be further from the truth. I would very much approve of more realistic equipment for the characters if it would be an overreaching effort in all designs and not just the chest armour of one character. Josh argued that the first design was unrealistic and this was the reason for change, this ring very false in my ears since this wasn't an concern when they designed the other characters. More likely is that they wanted to lessen the sexualization of the character, which is fine by me. The problem is the argument for the change, not the change itself.

 

How is this hard to understand?

 

It's not hard to understand, at all. It just seemed to form part of the "Well X in fantasy is also unrealistic so there's no point in talking about Y"-circular logic. I'm glad we're on the same page of disliking boobplate.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Joukehainen

[DocDoomII]

That's totally not my field, but it seems to me, that a very common way to use to bow is to bring the string to the chin.

Add the fact that she is small, so probably she will not use a longbow, I'd say that she would need to be bowling-ball-breasted to have problem using a bow efficiently.

You are right assuming you pull the string close to your chin. But you may check some anatomy -like yours - to notice you do not need "large breasts" to risk some trouble, especially when you release the string.

 

So, it's usually just some piece of leather you wear over your shoulder. You often use such protection around your wrist too.

 

(btw, the string in the drawing is weirdly put)

I'm 196 cm tall. And from my chin to the fist of my extended arm there are roughly 75-80 cm (I'm using a 30 cm ruler, so it's not a perfect measure, but still).

I don't own a bow, but visualizing the V shape of the draw string, I'm telling you, it would need to be a VERY long bow to catch up with my (relatively small) man-boob.

The chest guard, in most cases is only there to give a neat and safe surface with no wrinkles.

[ComradeGoby]

Disney characters are a good way to show female characters that are supposedly strong while clinging desperately to a role model that is defined by male superiority, I guess. I mean, Disney kinda screamed it out to the world with their princess line. But in Project Eternity such a character might actually work, if deconstructed, much like Sansa Stark in ASoIaF. A character who not only lives that role but actively wants it, despite being quite oppressed in it, is in for a bad surprise sooner or later - and can react either with shutting their eyes from reality (Sansa for a long while) or starting to rebel against it.

 

But you would have to grow up quite protected to get there, at least in a society where humans are humans.

 

That is real life though.

 

It's a movie power fantasy that people are equal.

 

Look at all the "tough chicks" that are extremely hot and weigh 90lbs taking down 250lb men. Not happening in hand to hand combat if both parties are trained (and most of the time they are). Now if it's some ugly Breinne (or Cademugund it looks like) type chick then that's fine.

 

In ASoIaF only chicks like Breinne could be "empowered in the male way", female characters have to survive with cunning. It's jsut biology that women will never be completley equal to men.

 

And when they can be equal humanity itself would be so far advanced it wouldn't even be worth being called humanity (posthumans or transhumans(not trannys))

 

I bet there are plenty of women who could beat the crap out of you. People should be judged on their own merits not by their gender.

 

 

Of course people should be judged individually at the end of the day.

 

But categories like gender, economic level, speech, race help give a general idea of what to expect and how to judge the person. And humans inherently judge, it's a survival mechanism.

 

snip

 

Oh I'm sorry is your male privilege being threatened? >_> Poor baby.

Thank you for proving my point so graciously seeing as you seem to find that funny, want to have a laugh at mutilating male genitalia next?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=muuFygvXPAM

 

Exactly what does that have to do with video games and how does my views on feminism mean I support mutilation of male genitalia....:|

 

Just because men have bad things happen to them it doesn't justify male privilege. You are hurt and confused because women are taking away your offensive over sexualised eye candy and your rape scenes.... seems legit.

 

Male "privilege" exists because men are better. It's not given to them. They take it by being better. That's what feminists can't seem to understand, there is a real reason why they aren't on the same level.

[Joukehainen]

Hmm, I've done a tiny bit of archery, before. I remember the string slamming into my wrist (painfully) a few times so the wristguard was highly desirable (for a beginner, anyway). Don't recall any problems with the chest but depending on the size of the chest/how far the bow being held from the body, could be an issue. Would be kinda cool to see like a little leather plate overhanging one of Sagani's shoulders, kinda like a sheath or a quiver for a sort of realistic armour accessory.

[TheMufflon]

Mufflon, Your entire argument seems to be based on the fact that one poster "doesn't know what all women want" and therefore all critical analysis and discussion of the portrayal of women and/or men in some games/movies/whathaveyou is null and void.

 

No, my argument is based on the fact that people who don't know what all women want shouldn't make claims about what all women want.

 

The problem with your argument is that you can use that same logic to apply to anything.

 

That is very much an intrinsic feature of logic.

 

If people are asking for a move away from racist stereotypes, you could just say "well you don't know what all black/Chinese/Indian/etc people want, so you can't say it's racist or analyse it."

 

... without statistical evidence." Though in this case it wouldn't be necessary for all people of those groups to agree, since it being objectionable to a subset could be enough.

 

If people are asking for the right to vote for women, you could just say "well you don't know that all women want suffrage so why give it to them or discuss it?" As we discussed earlier in the thread, there were in fact (a small number of) women who were against women's suffrage and slaves who opposed liberation, because power structures are held in place by more than just the dominant group.

 

Which is why referendums were held. And (as opposed to what you posted) the in first referendums (in the US) more women voted against suffrage.

 

The argument "well you don't speak for all people of social category X!" is the equivalent of "you're not the boss of me!"

 

What does that even mean? The truth of both these statements seems to be obvious: just as you are in no position to say what all women want you are in no position to tell me what to do.

 

People also keep saying that they're not trying to remove SEXUALITY, sexiness, or hotness from games or the portrayal of women. They just want to ADD to it.

 

I fail to see how what ever these nebulous persons you chose to clump together into "people" say has anything to do with me.

 

Also, let it be known that you arguing about who made the most ad hominem remarks is an ad hominem remark.

 

For an accurate definition of ad hominem, see my previous post. Pointing out that an argument constitutes an ad hominem is clearly an attack on the content of that argument.

 

I do not see any of my posts containing arguments against the character or motivations of any other poster, so please point out the relevant lines in the relevant posts as I have done for you.

[DocDoomII]

@TheMufflon: you should really learn to organize organically your posts. The serial quoting is flow-breaking and annoying.

That's just my 2 cents.

[Sykid]

"Well X in fantasy is also unrealistic so there's no point in talking about Y"-circular logic.

 

The argument is more along the lines of, "We all know this is an unrealistic game in pretty much every way, so don't bring realism into it when really what you're trying to say is 'I don't want content I don't like.'"

[TheMufflon]

@TheMufflon: you should really learn to organize organically your posts. The serial quoting is flow-breaking and annoying.

That's just my 2 cents.

 

I prefer to organise my posts systematically. I find that posting each response directly after the statement I am responding to avoids misunderstandings. While flow is important, I find that erring on the side of clarity is better for the discussion.

[DocDoomII]

"Well X in fantasy is also unrealistic so there's no point in talking about Y"-circular logic.

 

The argument is more along the lines of, "We all know this is an unrealistic game in pretty much every way, so don't bring realism into it when really what you're trying to say is 'I don't want content I don't like.'"

And ironically is the position of both sides of the argument.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

 

And exactly what is the point of this? To derail a thread over one sentence? I don't think I was hypocritical at all in what I said I'm pretty sure my impression of what women want in gaming protagonists is fairly accurate and not all women have the extremist views that your 'friend' attributes to them.

 

You aren't adding anything to the discussion at all.

 

You haven't said a single thing about what YOU want female protagonists or characters to be like. Just attacked me over semantics.

[DocDoomII]

@TheMufflon: you should really learn to organize organically your posts. The serial quoting is flow-breaking and annoying.

That's just my 2 cents.

 

I prefer to organise my posts systematically. I find that posting each response directly after the statement I am responding to avoids misunderstandings. While flow is important, I find that erring on the side of clarity is better for the discussion.

But it makes you look like you are trying to deconstruct and 'counter attack' your interlocutor sentence by sentence like you are exchanging blows. It seems kind of harsh.

 

This is way too offtopic though.

Edited October 20, 2012 by DocDoomII

[Moonlight Butterfly]

doublepost

Edited October 20, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Male "privilege" exists because men are better. It's not given to them. They take it by being better. That's what feminists can't seem to understand, there is a real reason why they aren't on the same level.

 

Excuse me? No they are not. Don't be such a goddamn sexist.

 

A woman was considered the first computer programmer actually. So maybe you should switch your computer off or have a bit more respect.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[TheMufflon]

I don't think I was hypocritical at all in what I said I'm pretty sure my impression of what women want in gaming protagonists is fairly accurate and not all women have the extremist views that your 'friend' attributes to them.

 

Please don't make assumptions about me or my friends. My friend does not "attribute extremist views to women", she just happens to have a gaming preferences that differ from what you claim women prefer.

 

 

You haven't said a single thing about what YOU want female protagonists or characters to be like.

 

That is because on the topic of attributes of female video game protagonists, we pretty much agree.

Edited October 20, 2012 by TheMufflon

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I don't think I was hypocritical at all in what I said I'm pretty sure my impression of what women want in gaming protagonists is fairly accurate and not all women have the extremist views that your 'friend' attributes to them.

 

Please don't make assumptions about me or my friends. My friend does not "attribute have extremist views about women", she just happens to have a gaming preferences that differ from what you claim women prefer.

 

 

You haven't said a single thing about what YOU want female protagonists or characters to be like.

 

That is because on the topic of attributes of female video game protagonists, we pretty much agree.

 

Oh I thought you were talking about the guy I originally quoted.

 

I don't understand why you are attacking me over this if you agree with me? I respect that your friend has different views but I doubt she wants something as vapid as the guys earlier were suggesting.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly