The End of The Beginning

[Amentep]

I don't really know what to say. Fallout, Arcanum and TOEE were mentioned only once. As a example of RPGs of their studio. But I don't want to argue with you about it. As recent poll here showed a lot of people even don't want PE to be fantasy. I don't know, maybe they went here by mistake...

 

Wasn't really trying to argue with you - I understand your concerns even if I don't share them; I think that we each saw different things in the pitches so that we expected different degrees of fidelity to the IE games.

 

P.S. And btw. D&D license has nothing with changing core concepts of game mechanic.

 

I'm not convinced here; I can't imagine that Obsidian could just replicate the AD&D 2nd Edition rules in a new computer game and not have Hasbro sue them.

[Wirdjos]

Either way, and please people correct me if I'm misreading, they do think the system is broken.

 

Rest system don't have anything in common with HP system.

 

Now I'm really confused. I was working off a comment you made earlier that mentioned the intent of the health/stamina system was to fix the rest system via sleep spaming. I added it to my argument because it sounded reasonable. Below is the line I'm talking about bolded. Please help me understand.

 

Right now my understanding is that (based on Obsidian comments) Stamina will be hurt during combat in majority of hist greatly, that character's HP and only special moves (like crits, or really powerfull blows) will damage HP. And stamina will regenerate. They think that this sistem will allow to deal with 'sleep spam' and 'damage from mooks/weak foes'.

I think that this is wrong. If you want to deal with 'sleep spam' make it punishing to sleep (random encounters, tickling time to finish quest), etc.

There is 1 million plus 1 ways to deal with all this in-game, without altering game mechanics.

[Kai]

I like concept of stamina+health, makes more sense than a regular health bar which I think is a rather clumsy way of displaying the well being of a character. It also leaves you with a better option to knock people unconsious than beating them down to 1hp as I've seen in some games.

 

And as for tactics in fighting, I can kinda see how if you face e.g. 5 enemies, knock one unconsious, go on and attack the rest or use something like power attack to kill off the unconsious enemy. Assuming you get a huge hit bonus on unconsious enemies, which I think makes sense.

 

Maybe instead of introducing a whole new system there is a way to introduce some special powers/strikes to make people unconsious?

What you are saying is basically the same as in order to heal a man from flu to suggest removal of his hands and implanting tentacles instead, that generate anti-flu elements to the body.

 

Unless there's a race in P:E with some very unique racial features, that's not what I mean.

Giving you special abilities to knock people unconsious: try punching someone in the face a few times, what's more likely? a) they're knocked unconsious b) they die.

 

Also, it could give different kinds of weapons different options for damage. A club would do more stamina damage and less health damage while a dagger might do little stamina damage and a bit more health damage than the club.

[Mrakvampire]

I'm not convinced here; I can't imagine that Obsidian could just replicate the AD&D 2nd Edition rules in a new computer game and not have Hasbro sue them.

 

1. Paizo used 3.5 rules to create their own RPG - Pathfinder.

2. Nobody wants to copy game mechanics - just stay true to basic concepts.

 

 

Now I'm really confused. I was working off a comment you made earlier that mentioned the intent of the health/stamina system was to fix the rest system via sleep spaming. I added it to my argument because it sounded reasonable. Below is the line I'm talking about bolded. Please help me understand.

 

You should understand that health system is fundamental system of every rpg game (Pen and Paper or CRPG). They think that fixing this system will fix Rest System. Ok, I agree that Rest System need some adjustments, but why they want to fix a system that is not broken (Health System)???

 

So my point is. Fix broken systems. Do not touch systems that already work fine.

[Mrakvampire]

Giving you special abilities to knock people unconsious: try punching someone in the face a few times, what's more likely? a) they're knocked unconsious b) they die.

 

Also, it could give different kinds of weapons different options for damage. A club would do more stamina damage and less health damage while a dagger might do little stamina damage and a bit more health damage than the club.

 

I'd say something like 50%/50%. I can hit you via my bare hand in such a way that you will die. And I can hit you with hilt of my sword in such a way, that you will simply drop unconsious.

So, there is absolutely no need to add another 'HP bar'.

If you don't believe me - look on D&D Pen and Paper rules. You can attack people with such exotic weapons as sap and still the game operates with only one key resource - classic HP.

[Clammo]

Whilst it may be the end of the beginning, I'm really enjoying the atmosphere on these boards. It's been a really exciting month from the initial launch which was a fantastic surprise as I thought these games were gone for good, to seeing the scope of the game develop, and the for the most part good natured forum debates - considering this is the internet that last part is almost unheard of.

 

Although I know the devs are going to be busy as hell from here on (well, after the end of KS party hangovers have subsided), but it'd be nice if they kept us in the loop a little on a semi-regular basis with information and how things are progressing, etc.

[Kai]

Giving you special abilities to knock people unconsious: try punching someone in the face a few times, what's more likely? a) they're knocked unconsious b) they die.

 

Also, it could give different kinds of weapons different options for damage. A club would do more stamina damage and less health damage while a dagger might do little stamina damage and a bit more health damage than the club.

 

I'd say something like 50%/50%. I can hit you via my bare hand in such a way that you will die. And I can hit you with hilt of my sword in such a way, that you will simply drop unconsious.

So, there is absolutely no need to add another 'HP bar'.

If you don't believe me - look on D&D Pen and Paper rules. You can attack people with such exotic weapons as sap and still the game operates with only one key resource - classic HP.

 

I look at a lot of MMA, and from that I'd say that it's more like 99.99% unconsious and 0.01% death. If someone dies from a punch, it's far more likely that it's because of the impact to the ground (e.g. the edge of a concrete sidewalk). Although the usual health system isn't too bad IMO, I still think a health+stamina system like this has a lot more potential. Let's just agree to disagree.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Kai

[Amentep]

I'm not convinced here; I can't imagine that Obsidian could just replicate the AD&D 2nd Edition rules in a new computer game and not have Hasbro sue them.

 

1. Paizo used 3.5 rules to create their own RPG - Pathfinder.

2. Nobody wants to copy game mechanics - just stay true to basic concepts.

 

 

Paizo used the Open Gaming License IIRC which I seem to recall reading someone at Obsidian say was trickier (if not impossible) to use for computer games.

 

Some of those concepts though involved the things that Obsidian thought was broken about the game (sleep spamming changing magic to a system that is supposed to vaguely approximates Vancian, for example, without being Vancian).

 

I think the health mechanic, was changed however not to change sleep spamming so much as the lore of the game doesn't really support resurrection spells.

 

Again this is all IMO and I could be wrong.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Amentep

[Mrakvampire]

I think the health mechanic, was changed however not to change sleep spamming so much as the lore of the game doesn't really support resurrection spells.

 

If game don't have ressurection, it doesn't mean we need to change health system.

We don't need to look further, just look at Fallout.

[Amentep]

I think the health mechanic, was changed however not to change sleep spamming so much as the lore of the game doesn't really support resurrection spells.

 

If game don't have ressurection, it doesn't mean we need to change health system.

We don't need to look further, just look at Fallout.

 

Healing is also going to be limited - Fallout had stimpaks and doctors you could pay.

 

Again not saying that the choice to change is right here.

 

And of course there's the fact that Feargus seems to have said that they were still experimenting with what works...who knows what they'll end up with.