Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part II).

[Tamerlane]

Kerrigan's appearance has been roundly mocked by many Starcraft fans, yes. Many comic book artists are also ****ing terrible.

 

You're totally right man; what the hell are those companies thinking? Clearly what they're doing is not working, and they should design characters the way you and Elerond want so they can finally stop working for pennies and make some real money.

 

I mean, those artists are so terrible that no one could possibly like that stuff, right?

But...

 

See, you've put me in an awkward position. Because I hate the whole "it's popular, therefore it sucks; I like something that's not popular and therefore it's awesome" position.

 

But that's... that's kind-of sort-of inherent to Project Eternity. That's a big part of the reason Project Eternity exists. If the goal of PE was to implement things that are popular to "make some real money", it wouldn't be an IE-style RPG, and none of us would be here.

 

And seriously, comic books are generally not a good example of sexualized characters done well. Google "land pornface tracing" some time.

[Tsuga C]

I mean, those artists are so terrible that no one could possibly like that stuff, right?

 

No one old enough to vote or buy beer should be at all satisfied with that sort of tripe. Brom, Justin Sweet, Michael Komarck--these fellows are capable of creating illustrations that are worth emulating.

[Dream]

Riiiiiight, keep up with the strawmen. Oh wait, I don't know what that means, I forgot.

 

Anyway, evil? Did I mention evil? I was saying JUST that, these companies sell sex. It's not that they're evil, they sell what the majority is buying. Then again, the majority ****ing sucks, which is why Modern Warfare and other garbage are so successful.

 

I thought we kickstarted this game for Obsidian, because we hoped they'd do things differently. Ah well, I'm just being a feminazi. We want the game to sell better, so bring on the boobplates!

 

BTW: Blizzard and Marvel both suck hard. Blizzard hasn't made a good game since Diablo II and maybe even that is a stretch. The whole superhero comics industry is just laughably bad, with very very few exceptions. But nah, Amurrhica business good! Feminazi bad! It makes a ton of money, so it MUST BE RIGHT! LET'S DO IT TOO!

 

You know, the fact so many humans buy this **** is just sad, it's nothing to celebrate. Sexism, your ridiculous rule of cool, you got it all, man. Helluva guy.

 

edit: ERMAGHERD! Rob Liefeld is the perfect example. :D That guy is rich, he's swimming in money and he's popular. And there's no good explanation for this, other than "People are sometimes dumb.". He's not a good artist. He's pretty bad. And still.

 

I know, I know, sour grapes, sure.

 

So what I'm getting out of this little tantrum of yours is that stuff you don't like sucks, and the people that like it are sad and pathetic; that about right?

 

Or am I strawmanning you again?

 

See, you've put me in an awkward position. Because I hate the whole "it's popular, therefore it sucks; I like something that's not popular and therefore it's awesome" position.

 

But that's... that's kind-of sort-of inherent to Project Eternity. That's a big part of the reason Project Eternity exists. If the goal of PE was to implement things that are popular to "make some real money", it wouldn't be an IE-style RPG, and none of us would be here.

 

And seriously, comic books are generally not a good example of sexualized characters done well. Google "land pornface tracing" some time.

 

Project Eternity was made to bring back an old genre of computer game; not to subvert every popular video game trope ever (many of which were present in the genre PE is meaning to bring back). Just 'cause they're making a game for a somewhat niche audience doesn't mean they have to turn it up to 11 and make a game for a niche audience within a niche audience.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Dream

[Tamerlane]

The takeaway is that "it's popular and makes money" is like the anti-argument for anything ever as far as PE goes. Because if you follow that line of thinking too far, PE wouldn't exist.

 

And since we've gone a long time without a neat picture, have a hussar.

 

 

EDIT:

Project Eternity was made to bring back an old genre of computer game; not to subvert every popular video game trope ever (many of which were present in the genre PE is meaning to bring back). Just 'cause they're making a game for a somewhat niche audience doesn't mean they have to turn it up to 11 and make a game for a niche audience within a niche audience.

You fragment no matter what you do. People who like oversexualized appearances and people who dislike them are both niches.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Tamerlane

[Merlkir]

 

So what I'm getting out of this little tantrum of yours is that stuff you don't like sucks, and the people that like it are sad and pathetic; that about right?

 

Or am I strawmanning you again?

 

You keep twisting this "discussion" so that it seems I'm just a petty hater of everything that's popular and that I just can't compromise and blahblahblah...

 

Yeah, you know what? I tend to think stuff I don't like sucks. And that's, SURPRISE, quite a normal way of thinking for most people. WHAT?! Someone is not being objective in an online discussion?! Scandalous!

 

So, let me sum it up:

 

1) Sexism: SUCKS.

2) Unnecessarily stupid armour design: SUCKS.

3) Pandering to sexism and stereotypes because they sell: SUCKS.

 

Yes, truly I am a poopyhead who doesn't compromise and drives all the fun away. That's why we can't have nice things. Like boobplates.

[Dream]

You fragment no matter what you do. People who like oversexualized appearances and people who dislike them are both niches.

 

So then wouldn't the best option be to not specifically go after either group and just stick with what the previous games did?

 

So what I'm getting out of this little tantrum of yours is that stuff you don't like sucks, and the people that like it are sad and pathetic; that about right?

 

Or am I strawmanning you again?

 

You keep twisting this "discussion" so that it seems I'm just a petty hater of everything that's popular and that I just can't compromise and blahblahblah...

 

Yeah, you know what? I tend to think stuff I don't like sucks. And that's, SURPRISE, quite a normal way of thinking for most people. WHAT?! Someone is not being objective in an online discussion?! Scandalous!

 

I don't. I can appreciate a game, movie, or whatever for what it is even if I don't like; I think it's called being open minded.

 

Maybe you should try it sometime.

 

So, let me sum it up:

 

1) Sexism: SUCKS.

2) Unnecessarily stupid armour design: SUCKS.

3) Pandering to sexism and stereotypes because they sell: SUCKS.

 

Damn, I guess Torment was an awful ****ing game that sucked.

[Merlkir]

I don't. I can appreciate a game, movie, or whatever for what it is even if I don't like; I think it's called being open minded.

 

"Open minded" is what you're asked to be by people who want you to accept their bull****. Like religion. But yeah, we should be open to the possibility that sexism is actually alright. It's very plausible.

 

Damn, I guess Torment was an awful ****ing game that sucked.

 

Is Torment sexist? Certainly the bit from the vision statement and a couple of female outfits in the game would suggest so. But then there's Fall from Grace, whose character kinda goes against that, so I'm not quite sure.

Does Torment have unnecessarily stupid armour design? Again, there is some stupid armour design, but it seems to fit the crazy setting. So, meh, not sure about this either.

Does it pander to stereotypes? I thought Avellone went pretty much the other way, or that's what I've read.

 

Torment isn't my absolute fav game ever, but I wouldn't call it awful.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Merlkir

[Tamerlane]

You fragment no matter what you do. People who like oversexualized appearances and people who dislike them are both niches.

 

So then wouldn't the best option be to not specifically go after either group and just stick with what the previous games did?

Nobody can even agree on what the previous games did.

[Dream]

I don't. I can appreciate a game, movie, or whatever for what it is even if I don't like; I think it's called being open minded.

 

"Open minded" is what you're asked to be by people who want you to accept their bull****. Like religion. But yeah, we should be open to the possibility that sexism is actually alright. It's very plausible.

 

Or be open to the possibility that not every woman wants to dress like a man. Oh wait I forgot, every short dress, mini skirt, and tube top ever was designed by men who forced women to wear them, and if women had their choice they'd all wear burqas. My bad.

 

Damn, I guess Torment was an awful ****ing game that sucked.

 

Is Torment sexist? Certainly the bit from the vision statement and a couple of female outfits in the game would suggest so. But then there's Fall from Grace, whose character kinda goes against that, so I'm not quite sure.

Does Torment have unnecessarily stupid armour design? Again, there is some stupid armour design, but it seems to fit the crazy setting. So, meh, not sure about this either.

Does it pander to stereotypes? I thought Avellone went pretty much the other way, or that's what I've read.

 

Torment isn't my absolute fav game ever, but I wouldn't call it awful.

 

So boob plates make a game suck but one character that subverts a trope redeems a game where every single female (outside of zombies, dust(wo)men, and fat people) looks like a straight up hooker? Well now we know how to throw in all the sexism we want into P:E and still keep you happy, just add a single non-prostitute prostitute with a heart of gold.

 

You fragment no matter what you do. People who like oversexualized appearances and people who dislike them are both niches.

 

So then wouldn't the best option be to not specifically go after either group and just stick with what the previous games did?

Nobody can even agree on what the previous games did.

 

They all had boob plates and skimpy outfits for thieves/mages so lets go with that.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Dream

[Agelastos]

I don't know... I don't want "boob plates" or maille bikinis, but old school sexism - of the "Cover up that ankle, young lady, you look like a two-bit harlot" variety - could still be interesting.

Boys mocking girls for wanting to be adventurers when they grow up. Arranged marriages. Jus primae noctis. Rape. Women's lack of legal rights.

 

I'm not talking about making the game into some kind of sandbox for misogynistic high school boys, à la GTA. I'm talking about taking the social issues that were prevalent during the middle ages and using them to tell interesting, emotionally raw stories (possibly with feminist morals). It doesn't have to be something that female PCs have to deal with all the time, but it could be interesting if at least some dialogue changed to reflect these views. Just like some races might be treated as second-class citizens (cf. elves in Dragon Age, or any non-humans in The Witcher). It would add to the replayability and could make playing a female character even more rewarding, if you are given the opportunity to prove society wrong.

Some cultures could also be more egalitarian than others. Maybe men and women are considered equals in w/e country the protagonist is from.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Agelastos

[Elerond]

So when I say that I want armours/cloths to have same/similar design on male and female characters, and not without any explanation transfer to another design when gender of character who wears it changes, I am actually saying that female characters should wear burqas?

[Merlkir]

Or be open to the possibility that not every woman wants to dress like a man. Oh wait I forgot, every short dress, mini skirt, and tube top ever was designed by men who forced women to wear them, and if women had their choice they'd all wear burqas. My bad.

 

This was never the issue and it's yet another strawman from you. We're talking armour. ARMOUR, MotherEffer, do you speak it?! A boobplate is not a functional armour design, it's never been used, there's no reason for it. (other than to make your willy feel funny)

A woman stupid enough to wear one (no doubt with the intent to look absolutely dashing on the battlefield) would probably die a painful death due to a broken sternum or an unlucky case of poleaxe point through the chest.

 

And even if we're talking about normal day clothing, context is everything. Women in a world which is undoubtedly inspired by medieval Europe (as most fantasy is) would (quite sadly, but hey ho) not choose to wear anything too revealing or sexy for several reasons. One - in a society of very religious people it'd be considered indecent and unacceptable. This is not that important, as religion in PE world may be completely different. Another, more relevant, reason was - unless she had the power to defend herself, or be defended, she wouldn't want to give any guy the hint she's ok with being raped. Let's face it, not even being robed from head to toe always prevented that.

 

So yeah, sexy clothes would make sense for powerful noblewomen (sometimes), naughty mages, priestesses or whores. I'd have to doubt the sanity of any rogue or warrior who'd wear just a tube top into combat.

 

So boob plates make a game suck but one character that subverts a trope redeems a game where every single female (outside of zombies, dust(wo)men, and fat people) looks like a straight up hooker? Well now we know how to throw in all the sexism we want into P:E and still keep you happy, just add a single non-prostitute prostitute with a heart of gold.

 

Yeah, no. But do go on, ignore parts of what I write, being selective about understanding text has never hurt anyone.

 

 

Good grief, I'm not even a feminist or anything. The ****.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Merlkir

[Karranthain]

We're getting really derailed here - let's get back to discussing armour designs. Here's something really unique looking (the helmet's pretty intimidating) :

 

[Agelastos]

We're getting really derailed here - let's get back to discussing armour designs. Here's something really unique looking (the helmet's pretty intimidating) :

 

Nice! Looks Indo-Iranian. What is it? Sarmatian? Saka?

I really hope there will be lamellar and plated mail armors. You almost never see them in RPGs.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Agelastos

[Elerond]

We're getting really derailed here - let's get back to discussing armour designs. Here's something really unique looking (the helmet's pretty intimidating) :

 

 

Ooh I want armour inspired by that in the game, that is cool

[Merlkir]

Nice! Looks Indo-Iranian. What is it? Sarmatian? Saka?

I really hope there will be lamellar armors. You almost never see them in western RPGs.

 

Indo-Iranian sounds about right, looks way way later than Sarmatian/Saka. My guess would be 16th century, something like the Mughal empire.

 

edit: Google says it's Sind - 18th century. Wasn't THAT far off then. ;P

Edited November 17, 2012 by Merlkir

[Karranthain]

Nice! Looks Indo-Iranian. What is it? Sarmatian? Saka?

I really hope there will be lamellar armors. You almost never see them in western RPGs.

 

It's apparently of Sindh design; as to time period - hard to guess.

 

And I definitely agree, here's hoping one of the cultures in PE will have a distinct Eastern flavour.

[Agelastos]

Nice! Looks Indo-Iranian. What is it? Sarmatian? Saka?

I really hope there will be lamellar armors. You almost never see them in western RPGs.

 

Indo-Iranian sounds about right, looks way way later than Sarmatian/Saka. My guess would be 16th century, something like the Mughal empire.

 

edit: Google says it's Sind - 18th century. Wasn't THAT far off then. ;P

 

Hah! That late? The general design didn't change much in 2000 years, it seems.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Agelastos

[Dream]

This was never the issue and it's yet another strawman from you. We're talking armour. ARMOUR, MotherEffer, do you speak it?! A boobplate is not a functional armour design, it's never been used, there's no reason for it. (other than to make your willy feel funny)

Magic has never been used either, but good thing it's a video game, right?

 

A woman stupid enough to wear one (no doubt with the intent to look absolutely dashing on the battlefield) would probably die a painful death due to a broken sternum or an unlucky case of poleaxe point through the chest.

And anybody stupid enough to wear plate against a dragon would probably die a painful death due to being cooked alive rather quickly.

 

Another, more relevant, reason was - unless she had the power to defend herself, or be defended, she wouldn't want to give any guy the hint she's ok with being raped. Let's face it, not even being robed from head to toe always prevented that.

So skimpy clothes means a woman's asking for it, and I'M the sexist?

 

I'd have to doubt the sanity of any rogue or warrior who'd wear just a tube top into combat.

But it's okay for Forton to run into combat with just rags on, or are you going to tell me if they instead introduced a female monk who fought in just a bra and loincloth you wouldn't be screaming bloody murder.

 

 

So boob plates make a game suck but one character that subverts a trope redeems a game where every single female (outside of zombies, dust(wo)men, and fat people) looks like a straight up hooker? Well now we know how to throw in all the sexism we want into P:E and still keep you happy, just add a single non-prostitute prostitute with a heart of gold.

 

Yeah, no. But do go on, ignore parts of what I write, being selective about understanding text has never hurt anyone.

 

Read this (page 14, to be precise). You can't be both against the idea of using sex to sell games while being okay with Torment

 

So when I say that I want armours/cloths to have same/similar design on male and female characters, and not without any explanation transfer to another design when gender of character who wears it changes, I am actually saying that female characters should wear burqas?

 

No, but what if a female player wants her character to look sexy? Are you gonna say "**** you, this game should be as realistic as possible and women in armor should look like men because it offends MY sensibilities to see a boobplate!"

 

"But it's just a video game and not real life...."

Edited November 17, 2012 by Dream

[Karranthain]

Since we've touched upon the East, I thought I'd post this one too. I think it challenges the notion that using historical influence would ultimately result in drab and boring designs :

 

 

 

 

 

[Agelastos]

Since we've touched upon the East, I thought I'd post this one too. I think it challenges the notion that using historical influence would ultimately result in drab and boring designs :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not to sound condescending, but it's fascinating how little progress they had made since the days of Kievan Rus and the Varangians.

If it wasn't for the rifle, the boots and the tassels, you'd barely be able to tell the difference. Peter the Great really had his work cut out for him...

Edited November 17, 2012 by Agelastos

[Karranthain]

Since we've touched upon the East, I thought I'd post this one too. I think it challenges the notion that using historical influence would ultimately result in drab and boring designs :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not to sound condescending, but it's fascinating how little progress they had made since the days of Kievan Rus and the Varangians.

If it weren't for the rifle, the boots and the tassels, you'd barely be able to tell the difference. Peter the Great really had his work cut out for him...

 

Indeed - but I find that mix quite appealing visually for that exact reason.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Karranthain

[Merlkir]

Magic has never been used either, but good thing it's a video game, right?

 

Magic is made up to be awesome and allow for the impossible. Boobplate is made up to get nerds off. Clearly, the same thing. Wait. Are you one of those who wish there was an orgasm spell? Or Summon Naked Chick?

 

And anybody stupid enough to wear plate against a dragon would probably die a painful death due to being cooked alive rather quickly.

 

Yes. At least they made SOME effort to wear some kind of protection. Unlike the nimble tube-top rogue, killing the dragon with a dagger. Hey, I'm not saying I like this either.

 

So skimpy clothes means a woman's asking for it, and I'M the sexist?

 

In a medieval-esque world? Of course. I'm not saying I agree with this thought process, just that it'd be pretty common in this kind of setting. And explaining that skimpy clothing would therefore not be preferred by women in said setting. Yes, you are still the sexist.

 

But it's okay for Forton to run into combat with just rags on, or are you going to tell me if they instead introduced a female monk who fought in just a bra and loincloth you wouldn't be screaming bloody murder.

The monk class as it is in DnD and elsewhere is silly, sure. If they protect themselves thanks to mystical training or magic, it's alright for them not to wear armour. I don't see why he couldn't wear a shirt though, sure.

 

Read this (page 14, to be precise). You can't be both against the idea of using sex to sell games while being okay with Torment

 

 

 

which is why I said I wasn't sure about Torment. It's a vision statement, those are written for a very specific purpose and for a very specific kind of people. I don't know how sincere it was. It might've been. If it was, that sucks. I vaguely recall Avellone being alright with boobs, although I kind of doubt he set out to make a game about boobs, or to market it solely on the fact of it containing boobs.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Merlkir

[Jarmo]

Nice! Looks Indo-Iranian. What is it? Sarmatian? Saka?

I really hope there will be lamellar armors. You almost never see them in western RPGs.

 

Indo-Iranian sounds about right, looks way way later than Sarmatian/Saka. My guess would be 16th century, something like the Mughal empire.

 

edit: Google says it's Sind - 18th century. Wasn't THAT far off then. ;P

 

Hah! That late? The general design didn't change much in 2000 years, it seems.

 

Reminds me of this. Took a bit of effort to find the picture.

Turkmen soldiers in late 19th century.

 

 

They didn't fare so well this time, but I'd wager it's more to do with having way outdated rifles than with the armor design.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Jarmo

[Agelastos]

Since we've touched upon the East, I thought I'd post this one too. I think it challenges the notion that using historical influence would ultimately result in drab and boring designs :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not to sound condescending, but it's fascinating how little progress they had made since the days of Kievan Rus and the Varangians.

If it weren't for the rifle, the boots and the tassels, you'd barely be able to tell the difference. Peter the Great really had his work cut out for him...

 

Indeed - but I find that mix quite appealing visually.

 

Definitely. I love the whole Old meets New thing. One of the reasons I'm so fascinated by the Meiji Restoration and the Hundred Days' Reform.