Raw experience, or experience that scales with your level?

[Hypevosa]

A simple question, should experience scale with player level or should experience be static for enemies killed?

 

Example of level scaling experience:

 

At level 1, Billy kills a rat and gains 5 experience. At level 2, Billy kills another rat and only gains 3 experience. At level 5, billy gains no experience for killing rats.

 

At level 10 Billy kills Firkraag, and gains 96,000 experience experience . At level 20 he kills Firkraag again (damned cults, resurrecting evil dragons...) and earns 6,000 exp.

 

I'm a fan of scaling experience myself - I like it because it keeps numbers on the smaller side (no millions and millions of XP to level) and really rewards players when they accomplish more difficult tasks (assuming we can avoid easily cheesed encounters), rather than reinforcing a grinding ethic that having no scaling can lead to where players just plow through all the easy stuff first so they can breeze through things that are actually close to their level of difficulty. Scaling experience also allows players to choose to do difficult tasks but not "lose out" on the experience provided by doing smaller quests or tasks since killing those bandits without having leveled yet will counter any exp lost by not collecting 10 herbs for the merchant and leveling before the fight.

 

Thoughts?

Edited October 7, 2012 by Hypevosa

[ogrezilla]

did you label them wrong in the poll or am I confused? 10 exp every time would be static, would it not?

[Ieo]

I like it as a balancing mechanic that touches both difficulty levels and content relevance. I can't think of any cons at this point, either, though I'm sure there are some, somewhere. Probably.

 

Oh, yeah, the poll options look mixed up.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Ieo

[Hypevosa]

I fixed my derp.

[nikolokolus]

At some point an encounter isn't a challenge so experience should probably fall off. What does a powerful warrior have to learn from smashing a weakly rat?

Edited October 7, 2012 by nikolokolus

[Hypevosa]

At some point an encounter isn't a challeng so experience should probably fall off. What does a powerful warrior have to learn from smashing a weakly rat?

 

Exactly - I'd like to make it so players can ignore doing trivial tasks for their level without being penalized for exp later, and to reward people who manage to accomplish otherwise incredibly difficult feats.

[ogrezilla]

static xp with increasingly more xp needed per level accomplishes basically the same thing doesn't it?

[TrashMan]

No scaling. Why?

 

Because I don't think that there should ever be a point where an encounter is so trivial.

[Hypevosa]

static xp with increasingly more xp needed per level accomplishes basically the same thing doesn't it?

 

Not entirely unless numbers get a little crazy or do some weird progression with levels. BG2 for example had no scaling experience, and so all the classes had different rates of leveling to try and keep them in line with eachother, once you reached level 10 the exp gain to the next level was forced to be static (250k for fighters) and thus meant all experience for fights past level 10 was about equivalent. It also meant that your progression was forced to a stop at level 20 where fighters no longer gained ability to hit, and enemies AC was almost forced to a stand still. It was just kind of messy how leveling and experience worked in BG 2.

 

No scaling. Why?

 

Because I don't think that there should ever be a point where an encounter is so trivial.

 

does your level 10 fighter stepping on a rat for 5 exp really warrant him going up a level?

Edited October 7, 2012 by Hypevosa

[ogrezilla]

if the xp between 10 and 11 is what I expect it will be, 5 xp will be very insignificant

[Ieo]

No scaling. Why?

 

Because I don't think that there should ever be a point where an encounter is so trivial.

 

does your level 10 fighter stepping on a rat for 5 exp really warrant him going up a level?

 

I think his beef is that progressive content should never be trivial, but that view seems rather linear and more appropriate for a pure dungeon crawl. I fully expect the Project Eternity world to be quite broad for exploration, allowing multiple visits to different areas. And Obsidian isn't looking at enemy encounter scaling, at least not much; xp scaling seems more appropriate without messing with content design itself.

[Hypevosa]

if the xp between 10 and 11 is what I expect it will be, 5 xp will be very insignificant

 

But that's what I mean, stepping on that rat has the potential to suddenly give your barbarian more hp, another rage per day, and makes him swing his axe more quickly than before he stepped on it... and that makes me go "wtf mate?"

 

I don't think any amount of rat stomping for a level 10 character should lead to a level up. It's like the "boil an anthill" card in munchkin.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Hypevosa

[ogrezilla]

meh, I guess I just don't really have an issue with that. it would help very very very little. if it happens to be the 5 xp out of 50,000 you needed to level, so be it. You still have to catch the rat and hit it. I could go get better at swinging a sword by swinging it at a wooden dummy. The rat giving very little experience seems fine to me.

Edited October 7, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Undecaf]

I'm more fan of the static XP gain, but there could be a "sort of" middle ground to that where the enemies offer a range of XP so that if the rodents give you 5XP at level 1, they'd only give you 1 or .5 (or something) once you're enough above the rodents level. You'll always get something from the encounter, even if very minimal amounts.

[Ieo]

meh, I guess I just don't really have an issue with that. it would help very very very little. if it happens to be the 5 xp out of 50,000 you needed to level, so be it. You still have to catch the rat and hit it. I could go get better at swinging a sword by swinging it at a wooden dummy. The rat giving very little experience seems fine to me.

 

Just remember that xp scaling goes the other way too. The idea is that if you manage to complete a level 14 encounter with level a level 11 party, then you get more xp than if you were 14. This makes sense to me as a good reward. This is relative, of course, to whether or not there will be exponentially more xp required to reach the next level, maybe a couple other factors like level cap.

 

However... PE may very well have so much content that scaling isn't a big deal, and the content balancing only needs to take into account the main storyline bits.

[ogrezilla]

meh, I guess I just don't really have an issue with that. it would help very very very little. if it happens to be the 5 xp out of 50,000 you needed to level, so be it. You still have to catch the rat and hit it. I could go get better at swinging a sword by swinging it at a wooden dummy. The rat giving very little experience seems fine to me.

 

Just remember that xp scaling goes the other way too. The idea is that if you manage to complete a level 14 encounter with level a level 11 party, then you get more xp than if you were 14. This makes sense to me as a good reward. This is relative, of course, to whether or not there will be exponentially more xp required to reach the next level, maybe a couple other factors like level cap.

 

However... PE may very well have so much content that scaling isn't a big deal, and the content balancing only needs to take into account the main storyline bits.

I still don't see why the other way is needed either. The reward for killing that dragon early is that I get that experience early. Its going to be a significant boost in experience at level 11. So its the same amount, but it goes a lot farther towards getting you to your next level at level 11.

Edited October 7, 2012 by ogrezilla

[TrashMan]

No scaling. Why?

 

Because I don't think that there should ever be a point where an encounter is so trivial.

 

does your level 10 fighter stepping on a rat for 5 exp really warrant him going up a level?

 

There are no rats.

Only bandits and monsters that lost little of their deadliness regardless of player level.

[Labadal]

Keep it static.

[Ieo]

meh, I guess I just don't really have an issue with that. it would help very very very little. if it happens to be the 5 xp out of 50,000 you needed to level, so be it. You still have to catch the rat and hit it. I could go get better at swinging a sword by swinging it at a wooden dummy. The rat giving very little experience seems fine to me.

 

Just remember that xp scaling goes the other way too. The idea is that if you manage to complete a level 14 encounter with level a level 11 party, then you get more xp than if you were 14. This makes sense to me as a good reward. This is relative, of course, to whether or not there will be exponentially more xp required to reach the next level, maybe a couple other factors like level cap.

 

However... PE may very well have so much content that scaling isn't a big deal, and the content balancing only needs to take into account the main storyline bits.

I still don't see why the other way is needed either. The reward for killing that dragon early is that I get that experience early. Its going to be a significant boost in experience at level 11. So its the same amount, but it goes a lot farther towards getting you to your next level at level 11.

 

That requires the xp-per-level requirement to scale as well, right? I don't know if PE will do that, but maybe it will (maybe it's standard, I dunno). There are only three ways to scale in the game--xp relative to level, xp required per level, and content relative to level. I think the last one is the least popular and the most problematic. BG/PST/IWD did the middle way, mostly (some content scaling in BG that I remember). Some games like the MMO I play do both the first and middle, which can create other problems.

 

 

There are no rats.

Only bandits and monsters that lost little of their deadliness regardless of player level.

 

Fair enough. Wolves? (j/k) I would argue that any field-seasoned adventurer will be able to dispatch enemies of less experience more easily than they would some seasons prior to the encounter. Unless what you want is enemy encounter scaling.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Ieo

[ogrezilla]

the required xp to hit the next level goes up as you level in almost every game I've ever played. it really is the same thing as a static amount of xp per level with scaling xp gains. Makes little difference except its easier to design static xp with scaling amount needed for the next level I would think.

Edited October 7, 2012 by ogrezilla

[moridin84]

Static exp is fine, this isn't an MMO where you need to worry about players grinding low level mobs.

[ogrezilla]

Static exp is fine, this isn't an MMO where you need to worry about players grinding low level mobs.

hopefully its not even possible. we don't need infinite mobs respawning. If they are there, the respawned versions shouldn't give xp.

Edited October 7, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Hypevosa]

at a point you break bank though and the player is left either having insurmountable exp to get to next level, causing a loss of incentive to even do challenging quests, or you need to cap the exp to next level. In BG2 you reach a point where your exp to next level is always the same so that you could keep leveling on a semi regular basis and everything still has some merit since leveling increases health at the least.

 

Scaling exp can be a simple system where every quest/encounter/enemy has a challenge rating associated with it. If you complete something at your challenge rating you get X experience, but the experience scales 20% per level above or below that challenge rating you are, down to 0.

 

 

No scaling. Why?

 

Because I don't think that there should ever be a point where an encounter is so trivial.

 

does your level 10 fighter stepping on a rat for 5 exp really warrant him going up a level?

 

There are no rats.

Only bandits and monsters that lost little of their deadliness regardless of player level.

 

All dungeons should have rats or other native flora that are uninteresting and generally not hazardous in my opinion - it makes for a more immersive environment when I can go "Oh look, things actually LIVE here". And who am I to say you shouldn't be able to interact with them... some people just really, really hate rats...

[Hypevosa]

Static exp is fine, this isn't an MMO where you need to worry about players grinding low level mobs.

hopefully its not even possible. we don't need infinite mobs respawning. If they are there, the respawned versions shouldn't give xp.

 

I've always thought that was a crap mechanic. If you're in one of the layers of the abyss where demons can feasibly "generate" out of nothingness to attack you as there's just too many of them to bother rendering all at once, you should still get exp for killing them if they're actually a challenge befitting your party.

 

Otherwise I just don't support infinispawns of anything... limited summons? sure, but not infinispawn.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Hypevosa

[ogrezilla]

Static exp is fine, this isn't an MMO where you need to worry about players grinding low level mobs.

hopefully its not even possible. we don't need infinite mobs respawning. If they are there, the respawned versions shouldn't give xp.

 

I've always thought that was a crap mechanic. If you're in one of the layers of the abyss where demons can feasibly "generate" out of nothingness to attack you as there's just too many of them to bother rendering all at once, you should still get exp for killing them if they're actually a challenge befitting your party.

 

Otherwise I just don't support infinispawns of anything... limited summons? sure, but not infinispawn.

ideally i don't want infinispawns.