What is meant by 'cool-down' period

[Rezin]

Relativity new to cRPGs. I've played plenty of mmorpgs and understand what is meant in that arena. I guess my question should be why do some folks get so heated about the lack of a cool down period or the use of a cool down period? Is the implementation in a cRPG different than in an MMO?

 

Thanks

Rez

Edited October 7, 2012 by Rezin

[Ieo]

The implementation is the same. The divisiveness is because cooldowns are associated with a totally different type of combat style----not a tactical overhead type like party-based isometric single-player, but one of twitchy reactions and little forethought, stuff like that. Read the cooldown threads (including the closed ones) to get a better idea of what the divide really is about. There are arguments on all sides, of course.

[khango]

Yes, cRPGs are (or should be) vastly different than MMOs.

 

An MMO is an aberration created by MBAs to feed the compulsive animal brain of those without an appreciation character or plot. If what you seek is repetitive micro-rewards and repetition, please go back to your MMO.

[ddillon]

The implementation is the same. The divisiveness is because cooldowns are associated with a totally different type of combat style----not a tactical overhead type like party-based isometric single-player, but one of twitchy reactions and little forethought, stuff like that. Read the cooldown threads (including the closed ones) to get a better idea of what the divide really is about. There are arguments on all sides, of course.

 

Dragon Age: Origins uses cooldowns and is an enjoyable CRPG despite some flaws.

 

@Rezin: I recommend that you try Dragon Age: Origins (DA:O) if you haven't. It features a hybrid of MMORPG and classic party-based CRPG mechanics and concepts. I have some gripes with the game, but it's fun and overall worth playing. However, Dragon Age 2 (DA2) is awful.

Edited October 7, 2012 by ddillon

[Jandor]

I don't like cooldowns, they almost always feel a bit QTE like and I have never seen an lore-based explanation for them. Casting times achieve the same thing while automatically fitting the lore, pretty much whatever the lore is. They also have the bonus that they can be interrupted creating tactical considerations.

 

Edit: There are limits to casting times, I know some cooldowns in some games can be 10 minutes long, at least, obviously that wouldn't really work with casting times.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Jandor

[Bloody Hypocrite]

This clears up a lot of quetions I had about the casting system. http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/378965687013505643

[morhilane]

The implementation is the same. The divisiveness is because cooldowns are associated with a totally different type of combat style----not a tactical overhead type like party-based isometric single-player, but one of twitchy reactions and little forethought, stuff like that. Read the cooldown threads (including the closed ones) to get a better idea of what the divide really is about. There are arguments on all sides, of course.

 

Dragon Age: Origins uses cooldowns and is an enjoyable CRPG despite some flaws.

 

 

Except that DA:O spellcasting had nothing in common with the old IE games because of those cooldowns.

 

Also, the dev already explained the Project Eternity cooldown system for spellcasting and it have nothing to do with DA:O version (aka MMO cooldowns). It is simply replacing some part of the resting mechanic. Resting is still in.

[MReed]

Except that DA:O spellcasting had nothing in common with the old IE games because of those cooldowns.

 

Also, the dev already explained the Project Eternity cooldown system for spellcasting and it have nothing to do with DA:O version (aka MMO cooldowns). It is simply replacing some part of the resting mechanic. Resting is still in.

 

The developer's positions on the spell system is still evolving (rapidly), but... Based on what is known at this point, some spells (low level) are now slated to have DA:O / MMO style cooldowns (cooldowns that are short enough to allow the same spell to be cast multiple times in a single combat). The behavior of higher level spells is a bit undefined (depends on which developer you read), but all developer posts / comments agree that they will have long enough cooldowns to prevent multiple casts within a single encounter.

[Ieo]

Dragon Age: Origins uses cooldowns and is an enjoyable CRPG despite some flaws.

 

@Rezin: I recommend that you try Dragon Age: Origins (DA:O) if you haven't. It features a hybrid of MMORPG and classic party-based CRPG mechanics and concepts. I have some gripes with the game, but it's fun and overall worth playing. However, Dragon Age 2 (DA2) is awful.

 

Heh.

 

One thing about the old IE combat was that it relies mostly on auto-attack. Physical combat skills are limited until much higher level (BG2) when you got better class skills, and then those skills are limited per-day the same way D&D Vancian spells are. Casters--they are crap with physical attacks and can only "memorize" a certain number of spells to pop, and once they're out, they are useless because they basically have no auto-attack at all; casters have to rest for 8 in-game hours to "recharge" those spells. Obsidian's implementation seeks to balance the playing field for classes in terms of that auto-attack and to tweak the "rest spam" issue.

 

In short-cooldown combat found in MMOs, combat is completely skill-based, meaning you're not going to get very far with only auto-attack--thus, skills need to be on a much faster cooldown, and casters would be very unpopular class choices if their spells weren't on cd the exact same way physical combat class skills are. There is no pause in MMOs and no concept of "rest" due to the living shared server environment; you can only control one toon at any given time (except for multiboxing). Keep in mind that because storyline and lore are quite weak in MMOs, much attention is given to keeping combat engaging with animations and such. MMOs are basically about--socializing and combat. Anything else is fluff (but oh do I like the fluff).

 

Not all cooldowns are created equal. In an MMO I play, I have at least a couple important skills with cooldowns between 30-60 minutes, and all consumables have cooldowns ranging from 30 seconds (e.g. poison cure) and 120 seconds (e.g. healing potions) to an hour or so for buffs.

 

 

About DA:O..... the short cooldowns were completely unnecessary because pause exists. Auto-attack should be fine--but auto-attack doesn't look cool, and that's a symptom related to 3D zoom environments because those kinds of players want to look cool while doing stuff (wtf, retarded finishing moves). Thus, skill-based combat on short cooldowns. But there were many other problems with DA:O, and mere implementation of cooldowns wasn't the deciding factor, IMO. If Bioware gave more stress to auto-attack and placed the skills on much longer cooldowns, it'd be less MMO-ey. (Frankly, the "quest bangs" or exclamation points floating above quest NPCs pissed me off to no end--talk about hand-holding, OMG. Stupid complete voice-acting.)

 

 

Project Eternity's proposed implementation is different enough from both to be interesting, IMO, and difficulty modes can easily adjust or turn off certain things.

[Rezin]

Yes, cRPGs are (or should be) vastly different than MMOs.

 

An MMO is an aberration created by MBAs to feed the compulsive animal brain of those without an appreciation character or plot. If what you seek is repetitive micro-rewards and repetition, please go back to your MMO.

 

I simply asked a question about why people are getting heated about cool-downs. I donated to be part of something different, get to play a style of game I haven't played before, and they've offered linux support. I guess I'm glad I won't come across you in-game.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Rezin

[Rezin]

The implementation is the same. The divisiveness is because cooldowns are associated with a totally different type of combat style----not a tactical overhead type like party-based isometric single-player, but one of twitchy reactions and little forethought, stuff like that. Read the cooldown threads (including the closed ones) to get a better idea of what the divide really is about. There are arguments on all sides, of course.

 

Dragon Age: Origins uses cooldowns and is an enjoyable CRPG despite some flaws.

 

@Rezin: I recommend that you try Dragon Age: Origins (DA:O) if you haven't. It features a hybrid of MMORPG and classic party-based CRPG mechanics and concepts. I have some gripes with the game, but it's fun and overall worth playing. However, Dragon Age 2 (DA2) is awful.

 

I'm going to check that out, it's on steam for 19 dollars. Thanks

[Ieo]

The implementation is the same. The divisiveness is because cooldowns are associated with a totally different type of combat style----not a tactical overhead type like party-based isometric single-player, but one of twitchy reactions and little forethought, stuff like that. Read the cooldown threads (including the closed ones) to get a better idea of what the divide really is about. There are arguments on all sides, of course.

 

Dragon Age: Origins uses cooldowns and is an enjoyable CRPG despite some flaws.

 

@Rezin: I recommend that you try Dragon Age: Origins (DA:O) if you haven't. It features a hybrid of MMORPG and classic party-based CRPG mechanics and concepts. I have some gripes with the game, but it's fun and overall worth playing. However, Dragon Age 2 (DA2) is awful.

 

I'm going to check that out, it's on steam for 19 dollars. Thanks

 

Um, if you're curious what Project Eternity is about, DO NOT play Dragon Age.

 

You should play Baldur's Gate (and Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment) from GOG.com.

[Rezin]

The implementation is the same. The divisiveness is because cooldowns are associated with a totally different type of combat style----not a tactical overhead type like party-based isometric single-player, but one of twitchy reactions and little forethought, stuff like that. Read the cooldown threads (including the closed ones) to get a better idea of what the divide really is about. There are arguments on all sides, of course.

 

Dragon Age: Origins uses cooldowns and is an enjoyable CRPG despite some flaws.

 

@Rezin: I recommend that you try Dragon Age: Origins (DA:O) if you haven't. It features a hybrid of MMORPG and classic party-based CRPG mechanics and concepts. I have some gripes with the game, but it's fun and overall worth playing. However, Dragon Age 2 (DA2) is awful.

 

I'm going to check that out, it's on steam for 19 dollars. Thanks

 

Um, if you're curious what Project Eternity is about, DO NOT play Dragon Age.

 

You should play Baldur's Gate (and Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment) from GOG.com.

 

Cool, those are cheaper anyhow. I'll check out one of them then. Having read all of them Drizzt books it'll probably be baldurs gate or Icewind. THanks

[Ieo]

 

Um, if you're curious what Project Eternity is about, DO NOT play Dragon Age.

 

You should play Baldur's Gate (and Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment) from GOG.com.

 

Cool, those are cheaper anyhow. I'll check out one of them then. Having read all of them Drizzt books it'll probably be baldurs gate or Icewind. THanks

 

I would recommend the Baldur's Gate series especially; it's kind of "in between" IWD and PS:T.

[NerdBoner]

The implementation is the same. The divisiveness is because cooldowns are associated with a totally different type of combat style----not a tactical overhead type like party-based isometric single-player, but one of twitchy reactions and little forethought, stuff like that. Read the cooldown threads (including the closed ones) to get a better idea of what the divide really is about. There are arguments on all sides, of course.

 

Dragon Age: Origins uses cooldowns and is an enjoyable CRPG despite some flaws.

 

@Rezin: I recommend that you try Dragon Age: Origins (DA:O) if you haven't. It features a hybrid of MMORPG and classic party-based CRPG mechanics and concepts. I have some gripes with the game, but it's fun and overall worth playing. However, Dragon Age 2 (DA2) is awful.

 

I'm going to check that out, it's on steam for 19 dollars. Thanks

 

Um, if you're curious what Project Eternity is about, DO NOT play Dragon Age.

 

You should play Baldur's Gate (and Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment) from GOG.com.

 

Cool, those are cheaper anyhow. I'll check out one of them then. Having read all of them Drizzt books it'll probably be baldurs gate or Icewind. THanks

the graphics are a rather big hurdle for most new players to get through as they haven't aged well...I'd recommend downloading the Baldur's Gate trilogy mod which updates the BG1 graphics to BG2 level and weaves the games in a bit more seamelessly.

 

also...

 

pro-tip: don't pick pocket Drizzt or try to kill him in the game. It likely won't end well for you...and he'll be back for his stuff later <_<;

[khango]

I'd try BG2 or PST over Icewind, or even BG1, but that's just me. Usually they all work well under wine, and there's GemRB if you feel like messing around some.

[MReed]

Um, if you're curious what Project Eternity is about, DO NOT play Dragon Age.

 

You should play Baldur's Gate (and Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment) from GOG.com.

 

Cool, those are cheaper anyhow. I'll check out one of them then. Having read all of them Drizzt books it'll probably be baldurs gate or Icewind. THanks

 

I would recommend the Baldur's Gate series especially; it's kind of "in between" IWD and PS:T.

 

Note that BG1 (&, eventually, BG2) are being "upgraded" to run better on modern hardware, and ported to tablets. Search for "Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition". The graphics are slightly improved, but the big advantage is that all of the mods are integrated, as are the bug fixes. Plus you get some unique content (three new NPCs, romances in BG1 if that's your cup of tea, some new adventure areas and the like) as well. On the other hand, it is more expensive than the GoG version, and it isn't out yet.

[Ieo]

Note that BG1 (&, eventually, BG2) are being "upgraded" to run better on modern hardware, and ported to tablets. Search for "Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition". The graphics are slightly improved, but the big advantage is that all of the mods are integrated, as are the bug fixes. Plus you get some unique content (three new NPCs, romances in BG1 if that's your cup of tea, some new adventure areas and the like) as well. On the other hand, it is more expensive than the GoG version, and it isn't out yet.

 

FFS, I can't believe I forgot about BG:EE. Unfortunately it doesn't support Linux, but maybe there are tricks to make the Mac OSX or Android version run. Then there's Wine.

 

Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition (BG1+TotSC+additional content)

 

However, I suggest to Rezin not to wait for that; specifically in the interest of preparing for Project Eternity during the KS campaign, then I'd suggest BG2 from GOG.com--you can figure out within the first few days whether or not it's your cup of tea. As an MMO player, I can only tell you that it's completely different, and if it's not your thing after all, you'd still have time to remove your pledge if you wish.

[Rezin]

@leo thanks for the explanation above about what cool downs mean in regards to crpgs

 

I went ahead and bought bg2 from gog. Now.. I just have to finish my shift at work..c'mon midnight.

[Ieo]

@leo thanks for the explanation above about what cool downs mean in regards to crpgs

 

I went ahead and bought bg2 from gog. Now.. I just have to finish my shift at work..c'mon midnight.

 

Have fun. If you have questions... there is a TON of information out on the internats since BG2 is old school.

 

Just remember--pause (space bar) is your friend.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Ieo

[ddillon]

Um, if you're curious what Project Eternity is about, DO NOT play Dragon Age.

 

You should play Baldur's Gate (and Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment) from GOG.com.

 

DA:O is a spiritual successor to BG (the degree of its success in this regard is debated, obviously) and could serve as a good introduction to party-based CRPGs and real time with pause (RTWP) combat despite its differences from the Infinity Engine (IE) games.

 

Also, consider that Rezin plays MMORPGs. DA:O is a far more suitable introduction to party-based CRPGs and RTWP combat for MMORPG players than the IE games.

 

@leo thanks for the explanation above about what cool downs mean in regards to crpgs

 

I went ahead and bought bg2 from gog. Now.. I just have to finish my shift at work..c'mon midnight.

 

Be aware that playing BG2 first will spoil the major plot revelation of BG. The story may be somewhat confusing if you aren't familiar with the events preceding it, and you won't recognize returning characters and references to the previous game, etc.

 

Also: GOG is fantastic! Glad you purchased the game there.

Edited October 8, 2012 by ddillon

[Ieo]

Um, if you're curious what Project Eternity is about, DO NOT play Dragon Age.

 

You should play Baldur's Gate (and Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment) from GOG.com.

 

DA:O is a spiritual successor to BG (the degree of its success in this regard is debated, obviously) and could serve as a good introduction to party-based CRPGs and real time with pause (RTWP) combat despite its differences from the Infinity Engine (IE) games.

 

Also, consider that Rezin plays MMORPGs. DA:O is a far more suitable introduction to party-based CRPGs and RTWP combat for MMORPG players than the IE games (which might alienate some of those players immediately).

 

But DA:O has nothing remotely to do with Project Eternity---despite the difference of opinion* on the enjoyability of DA:O, I think everyone can agree that it actually did not emulate much of anything from Baldur's Gate despite the marketing. Nothing in this thread or other related ones can possibly claim DA:O's world was as large as BG1/BG2's and allowed for free exploration, or that the combat systems were anywhere close to each other (Bioware didn't even try to emulate elements of D&D Vancian limitations), among other things.

 

And yes, I play MMOs too, so I'm very aware of the actual differences in practice (the people who decry MMOs just don't understand that it's a social game genre, not merely twitch play). For the purposes of introducing the gameplay expected in Project Eternity, recommending DA:O would be a great disservice. BG would be more conservative, really, because the proposed cooldowns would loosen gameplay just a bit, but the world exploration, partially voiced lines, stronger storyline, lack of cinematics and 3D talking heads, true isometric view without rotating camera--those details really do matter.

 

Recommending DA:O would create the wrong impression. Besides, I expect he'd adapt fine (it's just a matter of whether he'd actually like it); I think it'd be easier going to gameplay with pause and at-will saves than going to MMOs without pause and no saves.

 

@leo thanks for the explanation above about what cool downs mean in regards to crpgs

 

I went ahead and bought bg2 from gog. Now.. I just have to finish my shift at work..c'mon midnight.

 

Be aware that playing BG2 first will spoil the major plot revelation of BG. The story may be somewhat confusing if you aren't familiar with the events preceding it, and you won't recognize returning characters and references to the previous game, etc.

 

Also: GOG is fantastic! Glad you purchased the game there.

 

Yes, it's true--I personally prefer BG1's story implementation, but the user interface and some mechanics are simply less polished than BG2's, at least until BG:EE is released, but that's not happening until after PE's Kickstarter ends. Thus my recommendation to go ahead with BG2 to make the judgment while the Kickstarter is still going. The story is still good, and it's mainly to get a feel for the tactical gameplay; maybe OP can read a BG1 synopsis or something.

 

 

 

*Still hate DA:O with a burning passion. :D But that was mainly because it was marketed as the wrong thing; if they had left name-dropping alone and admitted to being a different thing, I'd have enjoyed it for what it was. Or more likely, not bought it.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Ieo

[Rezin]

ok now,

After several days playing BG2 and getting very familiar with the cRPG game I am pretty hooked. I can't say I am going to abandon everquest as I've been playing it since the second expansion came out, I will definitely be taking a break from it for a while. I have been gaming with most of the people in my guild since '99. Yes. the lore is pretty lame and it's a time sink but the community is still pretty nice. I also have an attension deficit problem that I have accepted and learned to live with. I doubt I will play through BG2 anytime soon but I will finish it. Got until 2014 right?

 

A 100 dollar tier donation to an awesome game developer that will support my operating system out of the box is a well spent.

Thank you.

jd

[Ieo]

ok now,

After several days playing BG2 and getting very familiar with the cRPG game I am pretty hooked. I can't say I am going to abandon everquest as I've been playing it since the second expansion came out, I will definitely be taking a break from it for a while. I have been gaming with most of the people in my guild since '99. Yes. the lore is pretty lame and it's a time sink but the community is still pretty nice. I also have an attension deficit problem that I have accepted and learned to live with. I doubt I will play through BG2 anytime soon but I will finish it. Got until 2014 right?

 

A 100 dollar tier donation to an awesome game developer that will support my operating system out of the box is a well spent.

Thank you.

jd

 

 

Glad you like it. More fans for the genre, huzzah. 2014 is plenty of time..