Turkey asks parliament to authorise military action in Syria immediately

[BruceVC]

This point is in contention. Please provide the link where Turkey admits the plane was in Syrian territory, even yesterday the Turkish ambassador to the UK mentioned that Syrians unlawfully shot down a Turkish plane?

They've admitted the plane crashed in Syrian waters and their story really doesn't make any sense- as if their plane was in international airspace and heading away there is no likely way it could crash in Syrian waters; physics/ inertia and avoidance tactics say that it should only get further away from Syria, not closer. There've also been media reports in Turkey suggesting that the turkish military is incorrect in its version.

 

The Syrians claim they shot it down with AAA, ie basically a very big machine gun, and a short range weapon. That would actually fit where the plane was found better than Turkey's version, and give a reason why they fired (ie it was so close as to be considered an imminent threat).

 

Okay I see your point. But Turkey is still maintaining that the place was shot down in international waters according to both these articles. Anyway I still side with Turkey on this as I consider the shooting down of the place as both unnecessary and provocative

[Gorgon]

Nevemind

[Junai]

I guess we'll see when we get independent verification of what they bombed in Syria,

Good luck with that..

[213374U]

Yep. I'm inclined to believe Turkey's claims. Nope, they would never play dirty.

[obyknven]

Turkey's military fired artillery into Syria for the third straight day Friday after a mortar landed in the Turkish countryside, raising the threat that hostile exchanges could become a regular occurrence along the neighbors' increasingly tense frontier.

 

http://online.wsj.co...=googlenews_wsj

 

How unexpected! Syria fires Turkey, although Assad troops leave border region.

[Gfted1]

The rebels should attack and goad Turkey into the fight on their side.

[Humodour]

The rebels should attack and goad Turkey into the fight on their side.

 

Do you genuinely believe that the rebels should commit acts of terror on Turkey to instigate the elimination of the Assad regime?

[Gfted1]

Mortar lands in Turkish countryside = acts of terror? Mmmkay. I guess the truth is truly the first casualty of war. Theres nothing nice or civilized about war. Turkey is spoiling for a fight and if the rebels can use that to their advantage they would be stupid not to.

[Humodour]

Mortar lands in Turkish countryside = acts of terror? Mmmkay. I guess the truth is truly the first casualty of war.

 

If the mortar was fired deliberately, then yes. Gfted, how else could you possibly characterise behaviour of "Let's fire a rocket at, and kill, civilians in a country not directly involved in our conflict so that we can involve them."

 

But more importantly don't twist facts. You weren't talking about the single morter because you said this (in RESPONSE to the knowledge that a mortar had already landed on Turkey):

 

The rebels should attack and goad Turkey into the fight on their side.

 

Definitely seems like you are suggesting the rebels commit acts of terror that are sufficient to make Turkey go to war.

 

Theres nothing nice or civilized about war. Turkey is spoiling for a fight and if the rebels can use that to their advantage they would be stupid not to.

 

So you are advocating that the rebels commit acts of terror on Turkey.

 

Perhaps we should talk more favourably of those rebels over at Al Qaeda? The Qaeda rebels would have been stupid not to crash planes into the WTC in order to further their cause.

 

Don't be so quick to support terrorism - it doesn't matter who is doing it, you are legitimising it.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Krezack

[Malcador]

The rebels should attack and goad Turkey into the fight on their side.

 

I'd rather not have more sparks in that tinderbox, heh.

[Gfted1]

~snip~

 

Heh, really trying hard huh?

 

1) You dont know if it was deliberate or accidental.

2) You dont know who really fired it.

 

Many analysts say that the mortars flying into Turkey are errant bombs, stressing that Syria's President Bashar al-Assad has little to gain from drawing Turkey further into its civil war. Syria's envoy to the United Nations, Bashar Ja'afari, told the Security Council on Thursday that Damascus was still investigating who fired shells that killed Turkish civilians on Wednesday, saying that Damascus wouldn't apologize until it was determined who was responsible.

 

 

3) Nobody was hurt.

4) Turkey, looking for any reason at all responds with artillary fire for three days for a lone, unidetified attack. Oh yeah, they previousy had their warplanes over another countries soverign territory. Wait, whos terrorizing who here?

 

Go ahead and actually read the article.

 

 

Syria is in a state of civil war for control of the country. They are not exporting "terror" for the sole purpose of advancing their ideology. I suppose I should now couterclaim that France is exporting terrorism by supporting the rebels. You do know those nice rebels have killed a crapton of civilians right? I get your trying to paint me into a corner and yes, I do believe the rebels of a civil war would be stupid to not use tactics that could possibly help them win control of the country.

[Raktul]

Well, I'm a person who lives in Turkey and let me tell you some stuff that I know by myself and my friends living at these places.Because there are some stuff you have mistaken about. Let me inform you about that.

 

First of all, plane-accident stuff. It was an experimental flight, to check if the new radar program was working well. Our pilots got into Syrian borders for few seconds because of the mistake of Radar. So they fixed the Radar right away, but Syrian forces, without any hesitation or warning, shot Turkey's plane right away. They were neither so deep inside Syria, or neither they were on the Syrian landscape. They were taking their way on the Mediterenean Sea. After the plane got shot, the question was where did it get shot? Was it in Syrian borders or International Territorial Waters? Nobody knows where exactly, but crashed Turkish plane found at International Territorial Waters. The thing was crashside was 13 miles away from landscape, if we make a mathematical calculation that is equal to 12 miles away from Syrian Territorial Waters. How can the crash site locate at there, if the plane didn't get shot right away somewhere 5 miles around the actual crashside. But Turkish government accepted Syrian's mistake and didn't call anything. This happened at June.

 

And since August, Syrian Forces were bombing places in Turkey's border. Until the one before last one (Which happened this morning) there wasn't any dead in these bombings. So Turkey was keeping it cool and accepting that mistakes can happen. But when people died, Turkey changed it's attitude. Because, the military engagement rules changed when Turkey's plane got shot down. The new rule says that, if there is a direct hit from another country, the forces located on that area can right away answer back to the country right away. That's what that is. Today another bomb fell down to Turkey's borders and Turkey called the answer.

 

Let me go for another topic, this one is about Kurdish separatist which are also Terrorists that Turkey call. This is one complicated topic we can say. Because the stuff begins like 40 years ago, where Turkish government decides to secretly kill Kurdish people at Southeast of Turkey. At these times, it was right thing to do. Getting rebel against the government, but today it is not. Because when you check Turkey's politics today, you would have noticed, for 10 years the government is trying to find a way to solve the problem and get back the Kurdish people's heart. You can see the new laws just made for people who seperated and you can even check out the Oslo Process. And against these, the Kurdish seperatist, kept attacking to Turkish Military Forces, killing them over and over again, not just that but they kept bombing the places where civilians live and stuff. And even against that, people living in Turkey (Most of them) still keeps helping Kurdish people all over Turkey. Sending them food when they need, clothes. Because the southeast side of Turkey is really poor. It's poor because Kurdish Seperatist forces doesn't let the government build anything there. Like factories for people to work. Or they simply kill the school teachers living there or threaten them. They also threaten most of the innocent civilians living there and get what's left of their food, money, clothes. That's really complicated matter, but from what I see, my opinion is, if there would be a war (Which I don't think it will happen) the Kurdish people won't attack Turkish military force. But the seperatist ones, which are Terrorist might. That's another topic.

 

And about the last topic, permitting military forces to enter "another country" , I will explain some more stuff and finish. I took it in brackets, because that's written like that in the permitting form for military. That doesn't mean, Turkey wants to attack somebody random but if you think over a bit a little, that would mean "We don't want to start a war with Syria, but we can start it. So to prove that we don't want it, we are not going to specifically say "Syria" in the permitting law." Since Turkey has good relations with Turkey's border countries, that's only way to say it. Second purpose of the permitation was that, Syria was constantly firing bombs over Turkey and not all that but also some soldiers were using their rifles to shot Syrian Seperatist but since they were shooting in this direction, the bullets were getting inside of Turkey. So that is a warning, but not a war starter. Like you got a large bat in your hand and start walking in your neighborhood, people would stay away from you if you don't like them. Because they would be scared, that you will hit them. But just because you got a bat in your hand, that doesn't mean you will go and start fighting with people that you don't like. Maybe, you were just going to play baseball or giving back the bat because you didn't like it. If we say the bat is permitation and the boy who carries it Turkey as well as the Syria the boy Turkey doesn't like. Do you think, Syria would attack the Turkey? So it's a warning.

 

I don't think there will be a war really. But if there will be one. Turkey will be ready for it. And believe that, Turkey is holding itself back and tries diplomacy as much as it can.

[Humodour]

The rebels should attack and goad Turkey into the fight on their side.

 

I get your trying to paint me into a corner and yes, I do believe the rebels of a civil war would be stupid to not use tactics that could possibly help them win control of the country.

 

The thing is, when we as Westerners support the use of terrorism by the rebels simply because the rebels are the good guys (or at least significantly lesser of two evils), in the minds of extremists (on either side) and likely even every day civilians, we're legitimising that practice. It makes it far harder for us to politically denounce unrelated acts of terror by deeply evil terror cells like the Qaeda.

 

I am not saying that Turkey are the good guys (although, if we're willing to accept shades of grey, they're certainly some of the less **** guys). But Turkish civilians are. They're civilians. It doesn't matter if you don't like Turkey, the Turkish civilians don't deserve acts of terror commited against them to further another country's rebellion (even against a brutally murderous regime) any more than the American people do - and let's be honest, you wouldn't be talking like this if the country at risk were the USA instead of Turkey.

[Gfted1]

When did I ever give an opinion on whether I like Turkey or not? I have no opinion on Turkey, good or bad. While we are throwing around wild accusations of terrorism for unknown attacks I could easily use a similar example of a recent border guard that got shot dead in New Mexico. We dont know who killed him, some even suggest it may be friendly fire, but since it was on the border of Mexico it must mean the Mexican goverment has engaged in terrorism against the US and is killing our innocents. Do you think we should carpet bomb Mexico in response?

 

Anywho, my point was that Turkey is seemingly looking for any reason to go overboard. They have used artillary for three days straight on occupied targets to "avenge" a lone mortar attack that blew up some dirt, very possibly by accident. From that we can infer that it would take little to no actual deaths or damage to goad Turkey into a full scale attack on Syria and the Syrian rebels would be letting a golden opportunity pass where they could get Turkey to do what they themselves obviosly cannot do.

[Gfted1]

@Raktul: Its always interesting to get insight from people actually there. Honestly though, the malfuctioning radar is about as believable as our accidental bombing of the Chinese embassy or their accidental ramming of our sub hunting aircraft.

[Raktul]

@Gfted1 Well, overall if we think that way, every country looks for their own gain at everywhere. But that doesn't change the fact, they didn't need to shoot the plane. Because if everybody shooted aircrafts like that, there wouldn't be any aircraft left on the world mate. =)

 

Anyway, like I have mentioned, I'm not waiting for war because of this authorization. Only if Syria would get in our land or only if Syria made a huge attack "accidently" there would be war.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Raktul

[Humodour]

When did I ever give an opinion on whether I like Turkey or not? I have no opinion on Turkey, good or bad. While we are throwing around wild accusations of terrorism for unknown attacks I could easily use a similar example of a recent border guard that got shot dead in New Mexico. We dont know who killed him, some even suggest it may be friendly fire, but since it was on the border of Mexico it must mean the Mexican goverment has engaged in terrorism against the US and is killing our innocents. Do you think we should carpet bomb Mexico in response?

 

Wow, you are really spinning things.

 

What you actually said (and what I was quite clearly responding to since this is the third time I've quoted you on it) was this:

 

The rebels should attack and goad Turkey into the fight on their side.

 

On a thread about Turkey being mortared by entities in Syria, killing 5 innocent women, you stated that the rebels should attack Turkey from Syria so as to scare it into attacking the Assad regime.

 

That sounds like a ringing endorsement of terrorism to me.

 

Anywho, my point was that Turkey is seemingly looking for any reason to go overboard. They have used artillary for three days straight on occupied targets to "avenge" a lone mortar attack that blew up some dirt, very possibly by accident.

 

2 women and 3 girls were killed in the village the mortar landed on, and the Syrians fired yet another shell after that one a few days later. So, are those 5 women just "some dirt"?

 

Oh, and those "occupied targets" Turkey has been firing on? They're occupied Assad regime military person. They're not civilians, they're seasoned, loyal members of a murderous regime that has slaughtered over 20,000 people in the past 1.5 years.

 

From that we can infer that it would take little to no actual deaths or damage to goad Turkey into a full scale attack on Syria

 

Turkey has been putting up with mortars, gunfire, planes being shot down, citizens being killed, and a refugee influx of 100,000 thousand Syrians (projected to be 200,000 to 300,000 by the end of the year) for one and a half years now. I should think that if Turkey were looking for any excuse to go to war with Syria, they would have done so by now.

 

Syrian rebels would be letting a golden opportunity pass where they could get Turkey to do what they themselves obviosly cannot do.

 

By committing acts of terror?

Edited October 6, 2012 by Krezack

[Gfted1]

Please try to pay attention between spastic outbursts.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443768804578038682267184060.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

 

The Syrian-fired mortar landed in the Turkish village of Asagipulluyazi, just over 50 yards away from the border in Hatay province at 7 p.m. local time, Turkish officials said. No one was hurt in the blast, which detonated less than six miles from camps built to hold Syrian refugees.

[obyknven]

....

It's nice, but we can read Kurdish point of view.

 

http://ikjnews.com/?p=5148

http://ikjnews.com/?p=4986

http://ikjnews.com/?p=5307

http://www.sundaytim...news&Itemid=625

 

and we can read this guy

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Orhan_Pamuk

 

After all this we have reason for skepticism.

[Raktul]

Well, I have mentioned that, it's a bit complicated. From my side, as a Turkish person that's how it is. From side of a Kurdish person it's that way. But if you check out the governments movements at the moment, like I have mentioned up there. You can see that government is trying to solve their problems while they don't want it to be solved. Beside these, there are some other offerings. Such as giving 3 city to Kurdish people and letting "all" of them live there. But they don't accept this either.

 

To make this clear, let me explain it this way. Let's say Indians from Americans are organizing and rebelling as America because they were the owner of the place before people came there. Would you call them terrorist or let them get the landscape they want? Instead, Indians living at US, accepts that they are "US citizen" unlike kurdish people.

 

I want to mention that, I put some subjective view of mine up there. So it might not be all true. I'm just trying to give the view of what's happening exactly. I have Kurdish friends and Turkish friends like I'm. And I don't have a problem with Kurdish people but the way separatists act. Killing people is not a way to solve problem. They should stop attacking Turkey.

[Hurlshort]

Thanks for the perspective Raktul.

[Zoraptor]

First of all, plane-accident stuff. It was an experimental flight, to check if the new radar program was working well. Our pilots got into Syrian borders for few seconds because of the mistake of Radar. So they fixed the Radar right away, but Syrian forces, without any hesitation or warning, shot Turkey's plane right away. They were neither so deep inside Syria, or neither they were on the Syrian landscape. They were taking their way on the Mediterenean Sea. After the plane got shot, the question was where did it get shot? Was it in Syrian borders or International Territorial Waters? Nobody knows where exactly, but crashed Turkish plane found at International Territorial Waters. The thing was crashside was 13 miles away from landscape, if we make a mathematical calculation that is equal to 12 miles away from Syrian Territorial Waters. How can the crash site locate at there, if the plane didn't get shot right away somewhere 5 miles around the actual crashside. But Turkish government accepted Syrian's mistake and didn't call anything. This happened at June.

 

Territorial waters are 12 miles, not one mile, the claim is (unless every english translation is wrong) that the jet was hit at 13 miles but crashed 1 mile inside Syrian waters (ie at the 11 mile mark). If we take the Turkish version as correct then- at minimum- the jet was heading back towards Syrian waters, not away at the time it was hit.

 

Really though, there are a bunch of stuff that makes little sense about the Turkish version of events. A recon version of a jet should have a very good electronic and countermeasure system which, if patrolling near a known conflict zone, should be active and working. It should easily be able to detect the SA2/3/6 launchers that make up the bulk of the Syrian AA missile defence, it's very difficult to credit that a recon version of a jet from a NATO country could not detect such 1970's era systems. The immediate response should have been to run at max speed as most Syrian missiles are relatively short range and can be simply outrun. Even if we assume that the F4 was travelling at only around cruising speed, say 900km/h since it makes the maths easy, it ought to get 1km further away from Syria every 4s.

 

The official Turkisk sequence of events is not outright impossible and bits of it are likely true, but overall and in the important bits it is very unlikely. Far more likely is that Turkey was trying to Gary Powers the Syrian coast, or the Russian base at Tartus.

[Raktul]

@Zoraptor I must apologize, I believe the information has been given wrong from the place that I read about the crash. Just now, I have checked the Territorial waters. And it's 12 miles, and you might be right about there. Then that means Syria, shot the plane inside their borders. And, it's really interesting how much you know about Jet's. : D

 

And today another 3 bombs has fallen into South of Turkey.

[Gfted1]

Being there, whats the general feeling of the people on who/why mortars are landing in Turkey?

[Raktul]

Well, there are two kind of people in Turkey about that. One side is against the government as in whatever they do (Or that's the feeling that I got with last acts) and second are supporting the government with whatever they do. The first side was telling that "Government is ****ty, why they don't response? " until Turkey responded against Syria. Now they say "Why Turkey gave response to Syria, do they want war? There shouldn't be a war and etc." Second side is acting more careful, they don't want war but still supporting the government no matter what I believe. But if you want a general view, people don't want a war. And against it. But they don't want Syria to let their mortar bombs land in Turkey as well.