Long-term wounding and why poison mechanics sucks

[soulmata]

For anyone who has played both PnP D&D and D&D-based PC games, you've no doubt seen the discrepency between the devastating effects of diseases and serious wounds on the tabletop vs in a game. It's something that's always bothered me, and is strongly related to the long-term reward/punishment system for players who are careful vs reckless. It's also something I think is worth discussing, and wonder what other people's opinions are. I, for one, am strongly in favor of things like long-term wounding systems, which includes crippled limbs and illness - neither of which have been a prominent feature in the majority of modern RPGs.

 

 

- First, how it is today -

Compare nearly any computer RPG, new and old. For this example, let's look at Baldur's Gate II and Skyrim. I pick them as they are both immensely popular RPGs representing different approaches to the genre. Both provide a mechanism for players becoming wounded, poisoned and diseased. Wounds are represented via the HP system, and all wounds can be healed through that same system. Both provide a mechanism for being poisoned - which corresponds directly to losing HP. Poison can be cured or reversed - and is generally never a problem after combat. Pop a potion, receive a spell - you're back on your feet in moments. Lastly, disease. Both have mechanisms for this in play, a variety of curses and diseases levied by enemy casters or creatures. The effects range from mildly annoying to downright frustrating, but the end result is the same - pop a potion or visit a temple and you're back to 100%. Ultimately, wounding, poison, disease and curses are rarely, almost never, a problem after a single encounter is over.

 

- Why that sucks -

That sucks because of what the HP system was originally intended to represent. It was not a character's "physical hardiness", but a measure of their liklihood to survive. Get stabbed through the gut by a spear, and your liklihood of surviving was... slim. Due to conservation of detail, though, this definition of HP became lost and ended up being "Here's how much 'life' you have". That's why getting stabbed by a sword or punched in the face or infected with a virulent poison all end up hurting your HP - and you can't really abstract anything else from that. To counter that, you have to make the punishing effects of poison/disease/curses very immediate - poison is instantly lethal, diseases produce symptoms within seconds or possibly minutes, curses take instant effect. Otherwise, once is over, the player uses the one cure-all and goes on their merry way. It doesn't really add much when a Fireball spell and a Poison spell are ultimately the same mechanic, just with different graphics or different resistances.

 

- How it can be done better -

Take a look at the Fallout series, which featured per-limb wound tracking and limb crippling and disease (via drug addiction). These sorts of injuries were long-term and truly debilitating. You couldn't heal a crippled limb through stimpacks, you had to visit a doctor or be a trained doctor yourself. Broken legs meant you hobbles long, broken arms meant using weapons become nigh-impossible. You had to fight through your addiction. Poison, unfortunately, was the same - a short-term, HP-attacking mechanism. This system can easily be applied to PE. How about a disease you pick up that has a long incubation period and can't be so easily cured - you need some sort of special remedy or a particular type of therapy. How about a curse that does more than just make you slower for five minutes, but perhaps atrophies your skills for weeks at a time. How about a festering wound that, while no longer bleeding, can become infected? How about if your wizard breaks his arm, he can't weave incantations and needs to be taken to a bone doctor.

 

Dying because you are stabbed in the foot repeatedly makes little sense. Becoming ill because you were stabbed in the chest and survived but are now prone to infection makes more sense.

 

- How it can be overdone -

Take a look at dwarf fortress. Wounding is tracked down to the skin, nerve and hair level, long-term wound management is crucial in keeping a dwarf alive and sickness can spread. That's over the top - but it's a simulation game, not an RPG, and designed with that in mind. I'm not suggesting it needs to be taken that far.

 

-Why this improves gameplay -

Combat shouldn't be just about the instance. It should be about your party's staying power and the long-term ramifications of making good or bad decisions. If your tank is constantly taking blows to the head and never improving his ability to dodge said blows, perhaps he gets a fractured skull or brain damage that requires a qualified doctor in a major city to really help him. Perhaps that nerve toxin your Rogue was nicked by when opening a chest doesn't actually seem that bad at first - until the next day, when he becomes paralyzed. Perhaps that curse your priest is suffering from is actually contagious - and no NPCs will let you come anywhere near them until he scrubs away his sin in a river.

 

These sorts of things can make planning your fights, skill load outs and more appropriately. If you know you're doing into a dangerous forest with a lot of poisonous Asps, maybe you'd better stock up on anti-venom. If you're facing a lot of humanoids known for using crushing weapons, bring some splints along. Who knows?

 

I know a lot of this is just pipe dreaming, just fantasy, just too much to ask. But it's fun to think about, and I really want to know what others think. So, please vote and please comment.

[Hypevosa]

If there are high level spells like regeneration that allow long term wounds to be healed, I don't mind, otherwise you're just going to end up with players ditching their loyal warrior for the next one to come along (or one they hire from the adventurer's place at the 2.6m mark) since the other warrior has been gimped.

[Osvir]

I am really for the top one (Yes because it adds more realism).

 

With this feature, the game could be focused more on injuries and skills/perks surrounding it (How to heal that fractured bone, how much time it takes and so on and so forth). I would love to see it and definitely what I would want.

 

But then my mind spinning and I start thinking about variety, one game I might want the Hardcore perma-death outcome, where I need to think every action through and manage all the tactical aspects, but then again I want to perhaps play a more casual playthrough wherein I don't need to bother or worry about managing all of my wounds. Then again I would like to have consequential wounds and scars...

 

Heck! What about loosing an arm in-game or even an eye?

 

Can character Portraits age/become scarified as the game moves along? (Wolfenstein and friends of the genre I remember had a strong representation of your character being low on health, his face would actually be visually bloody the lower his health).

 

This is something I would have liked to see in Baldur's Gate.

 

Last words is that I really don't know, but I'll stick with the difficulty option for now.

[general_azure]

In a world where pretty much anyone can tap into supernatural powers, fixing a broken arm should not be that much of problem. Suppose that's what my priest will end up doing, so those injuries won't last long after combat has ended. But I guess it'd still make sense as some rather crippling debuff during that encounter, provided it does not happen too often. Maybe on a critical hit or something like that. Drakensang (as well as the DSA P&P its based on) uses a wound system like that, in case someone here has played it.

 

For curses, the stuff Jumble was dishing out in PST was pretty good imho. Of course, those were not meant for combat.

Edited October 4, 2012 by general_azure

[Valorian]

I just hope they don't forget to add a variety of on-hit effects to monsters, where it fits, such as poison, disease, fear, stun, lifeleech, attribute drain.. etc. With a chance to avoid the effect on a successful saving throw. It makes combat encounters much more interesting.

[metiman]

Supernatural powers aren't some kind of cure-all. Not some kind of autoheal mechanic. There are specific ways in which they can be used involving (so far) either spell books or prayer. If there isn't a spell in the spellbook for that particular condition or if there is no specific prayer for it then you'd still have to continue along until you could get to a doctor or clinic or whatever. The answer to every question about this game isn't going to be: Souls!

[Hypevosa]

Well, the way it works in D&D you have standard healing for general small wounds, but actually regenerating a whole limb or something else where it's massive damage, means you need to at least use the regenerate spell a 7th level cleric spell (doesn't come soon at all).

 

That would be incredibly expensive to get cast on you, so it better be worth it if you'll pay instead of letting it actually heal over a week or something.

[Osvir]

But what about permanently having a wound, or a disability? What if the enemy chops of your hand, and now you can no longer use it or re-attach it.

 

Let's for instance say that you are poisoned, and because you didn't heal it in time you are now suffering from poison sickness. Add in another dice roll which reflects "coughing", which can interrupt your means of swinging that sword or casting that spell. The benefits you get is that you are, however, practically immune to poison effect henceforth.

 

"Bitten by a vampire? Become a vampire"-esque.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Osvir

[Hypevosa]

But what about permanently having a wound, or a disability? What if the enemy chops of your hand, and now you can no longer use it or re-attach it.

 

Let's for instance say that you are poisoned, and because you didn't heal it in time you are now suffering from poison sickness. Add in another dice roll which reflects "coughing", which can interrupt your means of swinging that sword or casting that spell. The benefits you get is that you are, however, practically immune to poison effect henceforth.

 

"Bitten by a vampire? Become a vampire"-esque.

 

That should be a choice by the player - if they have the magical means to reattach it, they should, if they need a soul animated prosthetic, whatever. I don't see any reason to force a player to play without a hand when it's inconvenient and not necessary - no one will, they'll just load an old save if they can.

[soulmata]

Permanent wounding I'm not such a fan of, since that would generally imply a character is permanently disabled - and if it's the player's character, some might consider that a game killing event, and just reload or reroll.

 

Long-term wounding gives you the punishment and realism of bad decisions or brutal combat, but also allows you room to learn and grow. If your party has shattered limbs and fractured skulls because you decided to send your whole group into a melee free with a bunch of kobolds wielding maces, you'll adapt.

[Hypevosa]

Permanent wounding I'm not such a fan of, since that would generally imply a character is permanently disabled - and if it's the player's character, some might consider that a game killing event, and just reload or reroll.

 

Long-term wounding gives you the punishment and realism of bad decisions or brutal combat, but also allows you room to learn and grow. If your party has shattered limbs and fractured skulls because you decided to send your whole group into a melee free with a bunch of kobolds wielding maces, you'll adapt.

 

I still think a suitibly high level cleric spell should be available at high tithe to the temple, or a suitably high cleric in the party as well.

 

Permanent loss of limbs or features that was handled in some acceptable manner I could get behind as it adds that much more depth to the universe. If an enemy can actually take your eye in combat and you can get a clockwork/magical replacement that gave some minor advantage, but perhaps take a charisma hit or something, that would be cool. Randomly hand the player a disability and an advantage.

 

Having a permanently blinded character develop blind fight ability and tremorsense or some similar thing.

 

Permanent disability that can be handled by a means other than magic could be a very, very interesting addition.

[septembervirgin]

That sucks because of what the HP system was originally intended to represent. It was not a character's "physical hardiness", but a measure of their liklihood to survive. Get stabbed through the gut by a spear, and your liklihood of surviving was... slim.

 

Actually, a character in D&D up to Third Edition was supposed to be relatively unwounded til they lost their last hitpoint. At that time, they were considered in a state where they could not defend themselves and were dying. Hitpoints were not so much just the likelihood of surviving as a combination of luck, fortitude, the favor of the gods, etc. Also, when hitpoints were devised there were also such a thing as Saving Throws, even Saving Throws against Death. This separates the concept of hitpoints from being pure "survivability" to a degree. Rather, hitpoints have a direct relation to battle and physical threat that a character might evade somehow (not just by dodging). It's a way of saying, "That blow would've killed any lesser person, but instead your character was simply scratched or minutely staggered."

 

Of course we could argue a great many points about OD&D for hours without achieving any result. It's all in interpretation, mostly.

 

I think what alot of people might be interested in (I'm not sure about them liking it) is if there were no hitpoints at all, just wounds and a saving throw of some sort that permitted them to avoid wounds. This saving throw would provide bonuses based on comparative power to the enemy (with bonuses reducing til an even match and then increasing again when confronting greater power) but also with some "critical hits" of rare sort nullifying any saving throw whatsoever. Critical hits would of course be more likely from enemies of great power and also so would the wounds be of greater severity. Armor would help mitigate the severity of the wound received and in some cases not permit any damage to the wearer from attacks deemed too weak to penetrate.

Edited October 4, 2012 by septembervirgin

[TrashMan]

Love this suggestion.

 

Do it Obsidian. Do it.

 

 

 

Drakensang (as well as the DSA P&P its based on) uses a wound system like that, in case someone here has played it.

 

Yes it is. The River of Time is easily one of my favorite CRPGs ever.

[Adauli]

In a world of Magic and Unnatural encounters I personal think healing magic and healing potions should be as common as the encounter that harm the health.

So if there a Diseases then there are for sure some cure disease spells around and if there a poisons that there are also cure poison spells around.

What means if you have a good healer in your party you usual sould not suffer for long from such status effects after the fight but if not you maybe even have to run to the neares Healer Hut to get healed.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Adauli

[D___]

Actually, per system resources(points, whatever..) + long term statuses(for curses and large abnormalities - say lost limb) that can be cured only by some specific and costly means, sound like something that can give some tactical depth without crippling game-play(IMHO of-course!).

 

Just as example:

 

if character state is represented by 3 systems with level-triggered effects, that come and go immediately when amount of % change:

- movement(muscle and bones) (<50% slowed, <30% accuracy of attack go down as well,<15% unable to move, <5% unable to perform ANY action)

go down from damage: crushing damage, partially by slashing damage

go down from using impulse-type physical special moves/abilities

being affected by equipment overweight, excessive going without rest

slow regen-over-time unless <5%(critical state)

 

- circulation(blood circulation,breathing)(<60% hampers speech-related skills/abilities, <40% starts to take slow continuous damage-over-time, <20% continuous damage to mental system, 0% DEAD)

go down from damage: piercing(regular), gases/atmospheric effect(when cannot breath),partial slashing,partial fire

go down from using continuous-type physical special abilities (unnaturally fast movement,stealth)

being affected by equipment overweight

fast regen-over-time unless <40%(significant bleeding etc)

 

- mental(both brain and all neural network)(<50% accuracy of attacks go down, <30% hampers speech-related and mental/spell-related skills/abilities, <15% unconscious, 0% DEAD )

go down from damage: electrical, direct magical(or mental), sound

go down from using concentration-type(active searching, intimidation, taunt, mind control ) and spell abilities/skills

being affected by excessive going without rest

fast regen-over-time unless dead

 

If one have to think which type of defenses/armor are most valuable in current party and per person, that will affect his strategy not only tactics.

Also having to worry about longterm effect like level-drain or disease, that can affect interaction with NPCs or spread within party, will force people to balance party carefully(which i think is good thing).

In my opinion its better then having per limb damage, since it would require enormous amount of pause-input for big party.

 

Something like this also provides means to control difficulty by disabling/lowering some of levels.

[general_azure]

Supernatural powers aren't some kind of cure-all. Not some kind of autoheal mechanic. There are specific ways in which they can be used involving (so far) either spell books or prayer. If there isn't a spell in the spellbook for that particular condition or if there is no specific prayer for it then you'd still have to continue along until you could get to a doctor or clinic or whatever. The answer to every question about this game isn't going to be: Souls!

 

" Though it may not look like it to see them in battle next to wizards and priests, fighters are just as able to tap into the power of their souls to devastating effect: accelerating their attacks to a superhuman speed, striking foes with such power that nearby opponents are knocked off their feet, and maintaining a phenomenal endurance that allows them to rapidly bounce back from even terrible wounds."

 

This is from the fighter class description in update 15. Now if a fighter has healing ability like that, I'm pretty damn sure a priest devoted to some health or fertility deity can do even better.

 

If I get some crippling wound/disease in the middle of a dungeon and the game requires me to run around for 10min before I can continue (instead of curing it right there by my own means), I'll just reload my last save and try again. Same for wounds that can't be healed at all, obviously.

[toothache]

I would be for this, but it would have to be done carefully so that penalties aren't stiff enough that you cannot continue and you have to simply reload afterwards, as that would be annoying. It would be even more annoying if you found out you had an illness that you contracted on a save you had already overwritten that prevented you from continuing on (say in a dungeon which did not have a 'rest' area to go back to), and that illness was only making itself known now.

 

It would also be incredibly tedious to have to drop a dungeon halfway through and crawl halfway across the map back to town, manually walk around and sleep at inns for 10 minutes and then have to walk all the way back in order to be able to continue playing.

 

I think more punishing systems work better for tabletop rpgs as they have to option, should your character die, to simply reroll a new character and pick up from where you left off. Its less appropriate for a game where, for all intents and purposes your character has to survive for you to keep playing.

[D___]

................

If I get some crippling wound/disease in the middle of a dungeon and the game requires me to run around for 10min before I can continue (instead of curing it right there by my own means), I'll just reload my last save and try again. Same for wounds that can't be healed at all, obviously.

 

That's so, ONLY if receiving crippling wound/disease is something that can be avoid by just repeating action with one or two successful re-roll, but if such state is result of lacking protection from certain ability/trait common to current dungeon, you have/able to adjust before going there (again)

[Tale]

I voted yes, but only on higher difficulties. That's not precisely my interest. My interest is long-term being only about a single outing. Something that afflicts a character until they return to town, where it can then be fully healed.

 

It would also have to be pretty minor in the short term to tempt the player to push on through it. Like a single point of reduced max HP. And that could perhaps build up to worse affliction through a trek.

 

I'm not all in on the idea. But it sounds neat.

[Lady Evenstar]

I voted no, but if it were implemented as Tale suggests, I'd be OK with it. To me "long-term" suggests that coping with a gimped character would be an ongoing burden, but perhaps that's not what the OP intended. To me it sounds like a reload condition. Also, as someone who started a low level NWN 2 character recently, I'd say that at least in that game you'd be "punishing" bad RNG as often as careless play. I realize some enjoy being punished in games (or the thought of others being punished), but I think the devs should keep in mind that many do not--and should aim for roughly the difficulty of the IE games (before everyone knew the encounters--and available exploits--by heart).

[Rhulad]

It would be interesting to have a system where you could lose a limb and have to live with the consequences until such a time as you could find a replacement, or a priest powerful enough to grow you a new one.

[Adauli]

In P&P Rpgs I avoided to play Role Master (or other RPGs from ICE with that sytsem) as one single roll could criple or kill your char.

If there are crippling longterm effects in this game I would either reload bevore the fight or where it happend and try again or reload and try if after I do something else to level up bevore I get back to try gain and if both dont work I will put the game frustarted away and probably don't ever toutch it again.

[soulmata]

I voted no, but if it were implemented as Tale suggests, I'd be OK with it. To me "long-term" suggests that coping with a gimped character would be an ongoing burden, but perhaps that's not what the OP intended. To me it sounds like a reload condition. Also, as someone who started a low level NWN 2 character recently, I'd say that at least in that game you'd be "punishing" bad RNG as often as careless play. I realize some enjoy being punished in games (or the thought of others being punished), but I think the devs should keep in mind that many do not--and should aim for roughly the difficulty of the IE games (before everyone knew the encounters--and available exploits--by heart).

 

A permanently gimped character is not what I am suggesting or intended. What I'm envisioning is a system more similar to the Fallout series, where a crippled limb will inhibit (though not necessarily prevent) your ability, and requires specialized care (a doctor, a trained priest, a magical augmentation, etc) to treat. For instance, if your fighter were to break his or her shield arm, they'll be unable to use a shield, or unable to use it effectively - have your party priest apply a splint, and they'll at least be able to fight well enough to get you through your current task, until such time as you can return to town and get them fully healed.

 

It expands the complexity of combat and makes support characteristics of other classes more interesting. It becomes incentive to bring, say, someone with medical training along, to patch you up from fight to fight.

[TrashMan]

Furthermore, injuries could reduce your max HP a little that is only restored by proper medical care.

[soulmata]

That's certainly one approach - if you use HP as a survival mechanic, any sort of injury reduces your capacity to survive and therefore might reduce your maximum HP, until you had sufficient healing to deal with it. The specifics of how it would be done are not really important, so long as it's:

 

1) Adds immersion

2) Is non-intrusive (it makes the game more fun and more in depth without becoming an aggravation)

 

Obsidian has already commented on adding difficulty enhancements, including some sort of survival needs aspect - like needing to sleep or eat. Those sorts of systems synergize well with long term wounding systems. Further, I believe they help endear your characters to you better - if your character goes bravely into battle and thrashes the enemy, protecting his teammates whilst doing so, and comes out the other end bloody and battered, you're going to empathize with him a lot more than if he was always in pristine "I have no scars for I am a hero" condition.

 

As development of PE continues, I hope some sort of wounding system gets at least considered. It looks like there is significant interest in it.

 

Plus, scars are awesome.