Tropes vs Women

[Gurkog]

For all the people saying that they don't want this kind of thing in "fantasy" or a "game," why not? Why is OK for entertainment and games to deal with other issues of politics, culture, philosophy, and science but this subject is excluded? And why are you against the people who are pushing for this subject to be included in the games? When someone starts topic about wanting to include issues of ethics, metaphysics, different cultures in the world, the nature of a man, etc., in the game, no one goes in there and says, "stop pushing your agenda on the developers, let them put what they want in the game." No one in this topic is forcing the developers to do anything, any more than the people in the topic about how they want intelligent evil choices are forcing the developers to implement those ideas.

 

And it's easy to be OK with the status quo when you aren't being negatively affected. Privileged people have the erroneous belief that everyone has those same privileges and that attempts to achieve greater equality are attempts to gain an unfair advantage over them. It's just like when white men in America complain about how there's a Black History Month and a Women History Month and a Hispanic History Month, etc. but there's no White Men History Month. They simply don't see that the society itself constantly celebrates the achievements of white men and that the history of America being taught in schools focuses mainly on the history of white men.

 

They don't discus much about how discrimination against different nationalities, cultures, religions of 'white men' there is by various 'white men'. Lumping a very diverse group together was one of the dumbest things government has done. Especially since there has been so much hate and violence among them.

 

EDIT: bah... I should stop trying to form arguments and type while I have sleepy head.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Gurkog

[licketysplit]

 

If you want to make a game that makes a political statement, force your view of right and wrong on the world (whatever the aspect is) then more power to you. But you should not be bullying or trying to force other developers and every game into furthering your own political and social agenda. If you want to make something for that yourself then do so, but this game is not a tool of your political and social panderings.

 

/end thread.

[Badmojo]

For all the people saying that they don't want this kind of thing in "fantasy" or a "game," why not? Why is OK for entertainment and games to deal with other issues of politics, culture, philosophy, and science but this subject is excluded? And why are you against the people who are pushing for this subject to be included in the games? When someone starts topic about wanting to include issues of ethics, metaphysics, different cultures in the world, the nature of a man, etc., in the game, no one goes in there and says, "stop pushing your agenda on the developers, let them put what they want in the game." No one in this topic is forcing the developers to do anything, any more than the people in the topic about how they want intelligent evil choices are forcing the developers to implement those ideas.

 

And it's easy to be OK with the status quo when you aren't being negatively affected. Privileged people have the erroneous belief that everyone has those same privileges and that attempts to achieve greater equality are attempts to gain an unfair advantage over them. It's just like when white men in America complain about how there's a Black History Month and a Women History Month and a Hispanic History Month, etc. but there's no White Men History Month. They simply don't see that the society itself constantly celebrates the achievements of white men and that the history of America being taught in schools focuses mainly on the history of white men.

 

Because we want entertainment, not political propaganda.

[walkir]

However, something I really hope to not see is the stereotypical Damsels in Distress and other unpleasant tropes.

 

This is the problem, people trying to tell other people what fun is proper and what isn't. Especially if "proper" means "PC" and everyone who disagrees is a "bad person".

 

People disagreeing with you (general you) about what they want to do in a computer game doesn't make them "bad" or wrong, and if you can't accept that, it's not my problem.

[-TK-]

Sorry, I just don't think that real world sexual politics have any place in a medieval fantasy setting, I'm aware that being a fantasy game it isn't bound by the rules of history, but frankly the whole idea puts me off, I'm sick of the social justice crowd pushing their hangups on everyone else; I'm all for strong, well written female characters but when you start down that road you end up with pitifully written tripe like Dragon Age.

The less a game plays like bad fan fiction the better imo.

[lord of flies]

lmao at all the opinions of the "NO NOT THE PC POLICE" crowd. How dare you propose that this game not be a sexist racist pile of crap! Don't you get that it's not for you?!? How entitled, not to want incessantly misogynistic stereotypes and ideas to appear in games! Damn you all to hell! I hate all this, why can't we go back to the Good Old Days (note: good old days never actually existed) back when men were real men, women were real women, and misogyny in this fantasy setting with elves, wizards, gods and dragons was a realistic portrayal of medieval culture (note: realistic here means a reproduction of the worst sexual mores of the worst of gangster rap)!

[licketysplit]

lmao at all the opinions of the "NO NOT THE PC POLICE" crowd. How dare you propose that this game not be a sexist racist pile of crap! Don't you get that it's not for you?!? How entitled, not to want incessantly misogynistic stereotypes and ideas to appear in games! Damn you all to hell! I hate all this, why can't we go back to the Good Old Days (note: good old days never actually existed) back when men were real men, women were real women, and misogyny in this fantasy setting with elves, wizards, gods and dragons was a realistic portrayal of medieval culture (note: realistic here means a reproduction of the worst sexual mores of the worst of gangster rap)!

 

No melodrama here.

[lord of flies]

People who complain about the "social justice types" and "political correctness" are basically not really human beings but some kind of horrible p-zombie incapable of thought or empathy. Obsidian games have generally been very good about portraying women and minorities in a positive light, so if you're so angry about the PC police go play that one white supremacist game where you kill loads of brown people for spurious reasons. It's called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare. KABOOSH!

[Dragoonlordz]

People who complain about the "social justice types" and "political correctness" are basically not really human beings but some kind of horrible p-zombie incapable of thought or empathy. Obsidian games have generally been very good about portraying women and minorities in a positive light, so if you're so angry about the PC police go play that one white supremacist game where you kill loads of brown people for spurious reasons. It's called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare. KABOOSH!

 

I suggest you stop, the only thing your melodramatic ranting is doing is making people decide to pay less attention to anything you have to say.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[-TK-]

People who complain about the "social justice types" and "political correctness" are basically not really human beings but some kind of horrible p-zombie incapable of thought or empathy. Obsidian games have generally been very good about portraying women and minorities in a positive light, so if you're so angry about the PC police go play that one white supremacist game where you kill loads of brown people for spurious reasons. It's called Call of Duty: Modern Warfare. KABOOSH!

 

That's a pretty broad and uneducated generalisation for somebody trying to come across as a liberal and accepting sort of person; opposed to that sort of thinking.

So other than being a hypocrite, calling people racists and sub-humans for not agreeing with you (much like every other nazi before you) do you have any valid points or are you going to sit there hurling insults?

[Tychoxi]

As long as they don't have warriors (or peasant, thiefs, rogues, little girls or grandmas like every other game) dressed as harlots I won't have much of a problem. Judging from previous Obsidian characters I don't think we'll have either that or other forms of explicit or implicit misogyny (I mean by the developers, ingame cultural misogyny can be good!)

Edited September 23, 2012 by Tychoxi

[lord of flies]

That's a pretty broad and uneducated generalisation for somebody trying to come across as a liberal and accepting sort of person; opposed to that sort of thinking.

So other than being a hypocrite, calling people racists and sub-humans for not agreeing with you (much like every other nazi before you) do you have any valid points or are you going to sit there hurling insults?

"How can you be so intolerant... of INTOLERANCE?!?"

 

Did you ever consider that being against "social justice" and "political correctness" literally means being for racism and misogyny? Just a thought.

[Dragoonlordz]

That's a pretty broad and uneducated generalisation for somebody trying to come across as a liberal and accepting sort of person; opposed to that sort of thinking.

So other than being a hypocrite, calling people racists and sub-humans for not agreeing with you (much like every other nazi before you) do you have any valid points or are you going to sit there hurling insults?

"How can you be so intolerant... of INTOLERANCE?!?"

 

Did you ever consider that being against "social justice" and "political correctness" literally means being for racism and misogyny? Just a thought.

 

I suggest you go get some fresh air and gain some composure before you post again. Your pretty close to being reported for the belligerent and vile melodramatic accusations directed at people of different opinion than your own.

 

As I said here...

 

If you want to make a game that makes a political statement, force your view of right and wrong on the world (whatever the aspect is) then more power to you. But you should not be bullying or trying to force other developers and every game into furthering your own political and social agenda. If you want to make something for that yourself then do so, but this game is not a tool of your political and social panderings.

 

@Edited for typos.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[Giantevilhead]

For all the people saying that they don't want this kind of thing in "fantasy" or a "game," why not? Why is OK for entertainment and games to deal with other issues of politics, culture, philosophy, and science but this subject is excluded? And why are you against the people who are pushing for this subject to be included in the games? When someone starts topic about wanting to include issues of ethics, metaphysics, different cultures in the world, the nature of a man, etc., in the game, no one goes in there and says, "stop pushing your agenda on the developers, let them put what they want in the game." No one in this topic is forcing the developers to do anything, any more than the people in the topic about how they want intelligent evil choices are forcing the developers to implement those ideas.

 

And it's easy to be OK with the status quo when you aren't being negatively affected. Privileged people have the erroneous belief that everyone has those same privileges and that attempts to achieve greater equality are attempts to gain an unfair advantage over them. It's just like when white men in America complain about how there's a Black History Month and a Women History Month and a Hispanic History Month, etc. but there's no White Men History Month. They simply don't see that the society itself constantly celebrates the achievements of white men and that the history of America being taught in schools focuses mainly on the history of white men.

 

They don't discus much about how discrimination against different nationalities, cultures, religions of 'white men' there is by various 'white men'. Lumping a very diverse group together was one of the dumbest things government has done. Especially since there has been so much hate and violence among them.

 

EDIT: bah... I should stop trying to form arguments and type while I have sleepy head.

 

Except that's rarely if ever how the argument has been framed.

 

For all the people saying that they don't want this kind of thing in "fantasy" or a "game," why not? Why is OK for entertainment and games to deal with other issues of politics, culture, philosophy, and science but this subject is excluded? And why are you against the people who are pushing for this subject to be included in the games? When someone starts topic about wanting to include issues of ethics, metaphysics, different cultures in the world, the nature of a man, etc., in the game, no one goes in there and says, "stop pushing your agenda on the developers, let them put what they want in the game." No one in this topic is forcing the developers to do anything, any more than the people in the topic about how they want intelligent evil choices are forcing the developers to implement those ideas.

 

And it's easy to be OK with the status quo when you aren't being negatively affected. Privileged people have the erroneous belief that everyone has those same privileges and that attempts to achieve greater equality are attempts to gain an unfair advantage over them. It's just like when white men in America complain about how there's a Black History Month and a Women History Month and a Hispanic History Month, etc. but there's no White Men History Month. They simply don't see that the society itself constantly celebrates the achievements of white men and that the history of America being taught in schools focuses mainly on the history of white men.

 

Because we want entertainment, not political propaganda.

 

Except it's only political propaganda because you disagree with it and therefore see it as political propaganda. It's like all those people who say that Harry Potter and Dungeons and Dragons are trying teach kids to be devil worshipers.

[TrashMan]

For all the people saying that they don't want this kind of thing in "fantasy" or a "game," why not? Why is OK for entertainment and games to deal with other issues of politics, culture, philosophy, and science but this subject is excluded? And why are you against the people who are pushing for this subject to be included in the games? When someone starts topic about wanting to include issues of ethics, metaphysics, different cultures in the world, the nature of a man, etc., in the game, no one goes in there and says, "stop pushing your agenda on the developers, let them put what they want in the game." No one in this topic is forcing the developers to do anything, any more than the people in the topic about how they want intelligent evil choices are forcing the developers to implement those ideas.

 

 

Ahh..but you see, when it comes to other topics you mention, no one is basicly trying to guilt trip you or implie oyu are bad/backward/ignorant and what have you.

 

 

It is normal to want things you like in a game...well, within sense. Sometimes ones prefernces don't mesh well with what is known about the game, so pushing your agenda then is being extreemly self-centered. Otherwise? No problem wiht desires.

 

The problem arises when it's no anymore about posting a desire and more about making political speeches.

 

 

And it's easy to be OK with the status quo when you aren't being negatively affected. Privileged people have the erroneous belief that everyone has those same privileges and that attempts to achieve greater equality are attempts to gain an unfair advantage over them. It's just like when white men in America complain about how there's a Black History Month and a Women History Month and a Hispanic History Month, etc. but there's no White Men History Month. They simply don't see that the society itself constantly celebrates the achievements of white men and that the history of America being taught in schools focuses mainly on the history of white men.

 

I frankly think that specificy segregating and makring something is jsut as racists as ignorign it. There is no "white history" and "black history". There is only human history. And some regions have a well documented history, some don't. Same have a dominanat populace who naturally made most of the history of that area.

[AwesomeOcelot]

For all the people saying that they don't want this kind of thing in "fantasy" or a "game," why not? Why is OK for entertainment and games to deal with other issues of politics, culture, philosophy, and science but this subject is excluded? And why are you against the people who are pushing for this subject to be included in the games? When someone starts topic about wanting to include issues of ethics, metaphysics, different cultures in the world, the nature of a man, etc., in the game, no one goes in there and says, "stop pushing your agenda on the developers, let them put what they want in the game." No one in this topic is forcing the developers to do anything, any more than the people in the topic about how they want intelligent evil choices are forcing the developers to implement those ideas.

 

This is not what this is. If someone said, "I'd like Obsidian to consider how gender roles are treated in the fictional world they've created, and how the fictional characters react to it, that would make the game richer". That's fine. Even to request that your political view point be represented in a game, also fine. Not to whine about what fictional characters do, or whine about objectification (they're fictional characters, by definition objects created to serve a purpose), in a highly selective way that has nothing to do with equality, and everything to do with what these people personally like.

Edited September 23, 2012 by AwesomeOcelot

[TrashMan]

No logical fallacies, just an incorrect premise... )

 

Gender inequality in human societies did not arise due to differences in average muscle mass, but rather can be traced back to the simple biological fact that it is not men, but only women who can get pregnant and birth children and breast-feed them while they're young - and that this (pregnancy and child raising) takes a long time.

 

In ancient tribal society, the death rate was very high, so in order to survive, a tribe needed to "employ" every single one of its women for the purposes of producing offspring and put a lot of effort into keeping them safe as precious "property" of the tribe. Men, on the other hand, were much more expendable and could thus be "deployed" as hunters, gatherers and warriors where they would get killed easily.

 

Over generations, this became very ingrained into the fabric of most cultures. For women, it meant that while their lives were highly valued and protected, they were given almost no choice about how to live it. For men, the opposite: They got much more decision power and could make more varied experiences and achieve more personal "dignity" - however, their lives were given little value and they were sent to their deaths by the thousands (and later, millions) without much consideration in dangerous jobs and brutal wars.

 

This duality is also why characterizing those societies with the catchphrase "misogynist" (direct translation: "hating women"), does not really provide an accurate and full picture. But I digress.

 

Anyhow, nowadays the basis for social gender inequality described above no longer applies: Advances in medicine and nutrition and technology and economics and politics allow societies to survive even with few pregnancies, and allow women to contribute to society in any imaginable way even during pregnancies and after.

 

However, it is still propagated through cultural norms to some extend. And again, it still goes both ways:

• In various circumstances even today, women find themselves having less options and less of a say than men, and being objectified as sex objects.
  
  • Objectification of women in films and games - the topic of this thread - is one example.
    
  • I don't think I need to give more example, this theme is thoroughly covered in the media and on the Internet.
    

• In various circumstances even today, men find their sexuality, their presence, their bodily integrity, and their lives being valued less than those of women.
  
  • Look at pretty much any product of Wester pop culture... While female sexuality is idolized and portrayed as beautiful and valuable, heterosexual male sexuality is only ever portrayed in one of two ways: As something to be feared (rape etc.), or as something to be ridiculed.
    
  • Menial and exhausting jobs that ensure an earlier-than-average death are still almost exclusively performed by men.
    
  • The "Women and children first" protocol in life-or-death situations has more or less survived into the present day.
    
  • We are taught to feel outrage about violence against women, and indifference about violence against men ("boys don't cry"). You can do a simple self-test: When watching TV, look for 1) a scene in which a woman slaps a man in the face, and then b) a scene in which a man slaps a woman in the face, and note your impulsive emotional reaction. In my case it is this: a) "Meh, maybe he deserved it." b) "[shock].. Ah wait, they're just actors [Heart rate slows down again]". Why? I can't help it. This is how we have been raised in today's societies.
    

What does this all have to to with Project Eternity?

 

One of the (honorable) functions that art can have is to bring attention to, or reflect on, pertinent social issues - and this of course includes the aforementioned modern remnant of prehistoric gender inequality.

But it has to be the artist's choice to do so - it needs to fit in with his ideas for the particular work of art in question. And it simply doesn't always make sense.

 

Bullying artists into superficial "political correctness", especially when pursuing a very one-sided and ideologized perspective of the issue in question (like in my opinion Anita Sarkeesian and others are doing), is not helpful in any way.

 

 

*takes of hat and salutes*

 

 

Well said Sir. Well said.

[lord of flies]

I suggest you go get some fresh air and gain some composure before you post again. Your pretty close to being reported for the belligerent and vile melodramatic accusations directed at people of different opinion than your own.

What a shocker, an anti-SJ type is trying to threaten me to keep my mouth shut. Nice.

As I said here...

 

If you want to make a game that makes a political statement, force your view of right and wrong on the world (whatever the aspect is) then more power to you. But you should not be bullying or trying to force other developers and every game into furthering your own political and social agenda. If you want to make something for that yourself then do so, but this game is not a tool of your political and social panderings.

Your post is so fascile it'd be funny if it wasn't so sad. Not paying any attention to treatment of women will result in a "political and social agenda," but that agenda will be misogynistic and unfun for anyone who dislikes such things in their video games. The inclusion of misogynistic writing (not characters, not cultures, but writing, that is, the universe itself siding with misogynistic ideology) is only attractive to People With Bad Opinions. Objectively speaking

[-TK-]

That's a pretty broad and uneducated generalisation for somebody trying to come across as a liberal and accepting sort of person; opposed to that sort of thinking.

So other than being a hypocrite, calling people racists and sub-humans for not agreeing with you (much like every other nazi before you) do you have any valid points or are you going to sit there hurling insults?

"How can you be so intolerant... of INTOLERANCE?!?"

 

Did you ever consider that being against "social justice" and "political correctness" literally means being for racism and misogyny? Just a thought.

 

 

No it doesn't.

 

The term 'Social Justice' in the context I used it is a reference to the over complication in labeling sexualities, sexual politics and the zealotry of those who follow the fad when it comes to forcing it down other peoples' throats and accusing people of intolerance simply because they don't agree with the same hyper-liberal standpoint they do.

 

Screaming RACISM or MISOGYNY any time somebody doesn't agree with you is akin to tarring and feathering them because they have a different opinion from you.

Those are big accusations to be throwing around so freely.

[TrashMan]

Because we want entertainment, not political propaganda.

 

Except it's only political propaganda because you disagree with it and therefore see it as political propaganda. It's like all those people who say that Harry Potter and Dungeons and Dragons are trying teach kids to be devil worshipers.

 

And it's only offensive / a problem / necessary because you choose to see it as that....

Edited September 23, 2012 by TrashMan

[TrashMan]

The inclusion of misogynistic writing (not characters, not cultures, but writing, that is, the universe itself siding with misogynistic ideology) is only attractive to People With Bad Opinions. Objectively speaking

 

Agreeing with you is only attractive to People With Bad Opinions. Objectively speaking

Edited September 23, 2012 by TrashMan

[lord of flies]

No it doesn't.

 

The term 'Social Justice' in the context I used it is a reference to the over complication in labeling sexualities,

Sexuality is complex, labeling it is also complex, not seeing the problem.

 

sexual politics

Sexual politics is complex and needs to be examined, not seeing the problem.

and the zealotry of those who follow the fad when it comes to forcing it down other peoples' throats and accusing people of intolerance simply because they don't agree with the same hyper-liberal standpoint they do.

Accusations of intolerance because of intolerance? Shock! Horror! World ending now!

 

Screaming RACISM or MISOGYNY any time somebody doesn't agree with you is akin to tarring and feathering them because they have a different opinion from you.

I know that white people are really whiny about being called out on racism, but no it isn't. Edited September 23, 2012 by lord of flies

[Giantevilhead]

For all the people saying that they don't want this kind of thing in "fantasy" or a "game," why not? Why is OK for entertainment and games to deal with other issues of politics, culture, philosophy, and science but this subject is excluded? And why are you against the people who are pushing for this subject to be included in the games? When someone starts topic about wanting to include issues of ethics, metaphysics, different cultures in the world, the nature of a man, etc., in the game, no one goes in there and says, "stop pushing your agenda on the developers, let them put what they want in the game." No one in this topic is forcing the developers to do anything, any more than the people in the topic about how they want intelligent evil choices are forcing the developers to implement those ideas.

 

 

Ahh..but you see, when it comes to other topics you mention, no one is basicly trying to guilt trip you or implie oyu are bad/backward/ignorant and what have you.

 

 

It is normal to want things you like in a game...well, within sense. Sometimes ones prefernces don't mesh well with what is known about the game, so pushing your agenda then is being extreemly self-centered. Otherwise? No problem wiht desires.

 

The problem arises when it's no anymore about posting a desire and more about making political speeches.

 

But who is doing that? Whenever a topic like this pops up, you immediately have reactionaries complaining about them and saying dumb things like "I want misogynists, racists, and gay bashers represented too!" After that, it's just people trying to explain why they want these kinds of subjects in the game. And you can't explain why sexism or racism or anti-gay attitudes are bad without making some references to the people who perpetrate those attitudes. That is not trying to guilt the developers into including these kinds of subjects in the game, that is simply explaining to the people who don't understand why there should be greater representation of women, minorities, and LGBT communities.

 

And it's easy to be OK with the status quo when you aren't being negatively affected. Privileged people have the erroneous belief that everyone has those same privileges and that attempts to achieve greater equality are attempts to gain an unfair advantage over them. It's just like when white men in America complain about how there's a Black History Month and a Women History Month and a Hispanic History Month, etc. but there's no White Men History Month. They simply don't see that the society itself constantly celebrates the achievements of white men and that the history of America being taught in schools focuses mainly on the history of white men.

 

I frankly think that specificy segregating and makring something is jsut as racists as ignorign it. There is no "white history" and "black history". There is only human history. And some regions have a well documented history, some don't. Same have a dominanat populace who naturally made most of the history of that area.

 

The point is not to specifically segregate but to give greater representation and voice to those who have historically been excluded or diminished.

[lord of flies]

Agreeing with you is only attractive to People With Bad Opinions. Objectively speaking

Please, feel free to explain how misogynistic writing is appealing to people who are not misogynists. Go on. I'm waiting.

[Dragoonlordz]

I suggest you go get some fresh air and gain some composure before you post again. Your pretty close to being reported for the belligerent and vile melodramatic accusations directed at people of different opinion than your own.

What a shocker, an anti-SJ type is trying to threaten me to keep my mouth shut. Nice.

 

Thats not what I said and you continue to be melodramatic and throwing insults around. I have been forced to report you for doing such. I have no objection to you having a different view than others including myself, I do however take offense at how you express it via insults, vile accusations, melodrama and misrepresentation of my stance; of which I asked politely if you would calm down and compose yourself before continuing the debate only to come under attack by you using those very same accusations and insults I asked you to avoid using.