Jump to content

please, no cooldowns


Recommended Posts

Introduced by mmorpgs, cooldowns are the lazy man's answer to combat balancing. I find that having to wait a relatively short time between certain activities is a very fakey, third wall breaking, annoying, tedious solution to reducing in power a particular game mechanic. They also tend to mean that the devs will feel duty bound to eliminate Wait(x minutes) as a game option because it becomes too easy to just instantly wait past the cooldown period. I haven't noticed cooldowns much in Obsidian or Black Isle games and I hope it stays that way. But on my last playthrough of MotB it was the spirit meter cooldowns that finally made me abandon the game out of frustration. If there had only been an option (or even a hack) to turn them off.

  • Like 3

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

.
.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am also tired of the cooldown system, but using some alternative means might be problematic. In D&D based games you had a system where you could use a spell or ability only so many times a day before resting, but it's still up in the air how resting will be handled in PE. From what I gathered, they don't want to repeat the problem where you simply rest/reload after every battle. Alternatively they could use a "mana" like resource system with no cooldowns, similar to KotOR, but... I don't know. Maybe a new solution is needed. Ideas?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ugh yes. Especially when cooldowns are on things like potions! I just dislike everything about them. Surely something better can be used.

 

And I know there are cheats to get around the spirit eater curse in MotB, but that might not be what you mean. I don't recall the cooldowns (I have a goldfish memory).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do like the way the TES games handle spell casting. There is no limit on how many times you can cast normal spells but you have a magic meter. Each spell takes X amount of magic to cast. Then the meter needs to recharge. Potions can help recharge magic or increase it.

 

Probably the easiest method is to tie it to stamina/mana.

 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


nakia_banner.jpg


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I gathered, they don't want to repeat the problem where you simply rest/reload after every battle.

 

Where did you gather that from? I haven't heard anything like that. I think IWD and PS:T and MotB all used sleep-to-memorize. I don't think Black Isle or Obsidian has ever used a mana and/or rune system.

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

.
.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ugh yes. Especially when cooldowns are on things like potions! I just dislike everything about them. Surely something better can be used.

 

And I know there are cheats to get around the spirit eater curse in MotB, but that might not be what you mean. I don't recall the cooldowns (I have a goldfish memory).

 

There was/is a spirit eater hack that removes the curse entirely. The problem was I didn't want to remove it entirely. I just wanted to get rid of the stupid cooldown periods that only succeeded in making the game less fun and/or make the spirit eating dynamic more annoying. It has been a while since my last playthrough, but IIRC the cooldown I am thinking of had to do with using the 'devour spirits' ability in shadow mulsantir. There were only a limited number of spirits anyway. Making me wait between castings--I can't remember how long--just seemed so utterly pointless. I suffered through it for a while and then searched for a hack to no avail, and then just gave up and exited the game for good. I generally don't play games with cooldowns, but I did make some effort to play Dragon Age and I recall hating the cooldowns in that too. I don't want some kind of super-deity all powerful character that can continuously cast powerful spells, but there are other solutions to game balance that don't make me want to exit the game and go do something less annoying.

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

.
.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I rather dislike cool downs, especially if they're longer than a few seconds. Guild Wars 2 is all cool down, but you usually have a lot of options so you're rarely stuck with nothing to do. Magicka has no cool downs and has the best magic system in the world. I played a MUD (Project Bob!) that didn't have cooldowns exactly- Skills had an ideal recharge time, but if you used it again before that it would execute less effectively. Seemed like a good compromise.

 

I dislike mana pools, ESPECIALLY if they are slow to refill. If I have to sit around and wait after each fight, that's a major design flaw. Arcanum was kind of okay when you could advance time, but if you were inside you had to use consumables or actually wait 10 minutes for your fatigue to refill.

 

But the spells-per-day system is basically the worst magic system in the world, so I really hope they don't do that. I don't think anyone likes adventuring for 25 minutes and then sleeping for 8 hours. Or sitting on your best spells just in case a real fight starts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I gathered, they don't want to repeat the problem where you simply rest/reload after every battle.

 

Where did you gather that from? I haven't heard anything like that. I think IWD and PS:T and MotB all used sleep-to-memorize. I don't think Black Isle or Obsidian has ever used a mana and/or rune system.

 

Josh Sawyer said it on a forum. The SomethingAwful forums, I believe.

 

http://forums.someth...9#post407551559

 

I've talked with Tim about this for a while and here's the thing: camping out in the wilderness and setting watches and getting ambushed by jackasses has a great classic AD&D feel to it, but it got pretty silly in games like IWD2. I'd like to build in reasonable mechanics that make you rest in the wilderness, but I don't want it to result in the sort of degenerate "rest after every fight" stuff we've faced in the past.

Edited by Infinitron
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What then? Force resting like the old games to heal and recharge and choose magic? Take magic potions to heal/recharge?No thanks, those were not fun, even the devs mentioned they did not want to go that route. Besides, it just leads to frustration and a lot of reloading. Cooldowns/regeneration is really the best answer, it is not perfect, but nobody has come up with anything really better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Amen. Let me recommend these articles by the brilliant Eric Schwarz. ;)

 

http://www.gamasutra...e_Cooldowns.php

http://www.gamasutra...ns_FollowUp.php

 

I love reading Eric Schwarz's blog, he clearly knows his stuff and expresses some really detailed explanations better than I ever could. He pretty much nailed everything I dislike about cooldowns without me realising exactly what it was I didn't like about them.

 

In any case I'd rather deal with some sort of resource management than an artificial restriction like cooldowns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I gathered, they don't want to repeat the problem where you simply rest/reload after every battle.

 

Where did you gather that from? I haven't heard anything like that. I think IWD and PS:T and MotB all used sleep-to-memorize. I don't think Black Isle or Obsidian has ever used a mana and/or rune system.

 

Josh Sawyer said it on a forum. The SomethingAwful forums, I believe.

 

http://forums.someth...9#post407551559

 

I've talked with Tim about this for a while and here's the thing: camping out in the wilderness and setting watches and getting ambushed by jackasses has a great classic A/D&D feel to it, but it got pretty silly in games like IWD2. I'd like to build in reasonable mechanics that make you rest in the wilderness, but I don't want it to result in the sort of degenerate "rest after every fight" stuff we've faced in the past.

 

meh, not like the sound that you will have to rest, even if its not after every fight. So, you rest after every three fights instead of the first one... not much difference really. I really hope you do not have to rest to recharge spells after they are used, I hated that in the old games and it nurfed mages in battle pretty quick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I'd certainly be interested in his solution. It's not like you can just sleep anywhere without problems. There could nearly always be a % chance of random encounters. The actual time it takes to sleep is usually not that important unless you are running against a timer and even then it helps balance out the strength of an arcane spell caster, the most typically overpowered of all classes. I think having to sleep every 24 hours should probably be a requirement anyway. At least for human characters. Perhaps a major battle should also require some rest before facing another one. At least the fighters would be fatigued for a while.

 

I still don't see much difference between an 8 hour mana refill and an 8 hour sleep refill. Well accept being able to use any spell in your book based on its mana cost. You could also rig up a mana pool to only refill when you sleep.

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

.
.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not sure which project you are backing but according to the Kickstarter page Project Eternity combat will use a tactial real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities will be the key to success.

 

If you can just spam your most powerful ability with no cooldown all the time, where is the challenge?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not sure which project you are backing but according to the Kickstarter page Project Eternity combat will use a tactial real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities will be the key to success.

 

If you can just spam your most powerful ability with no cooldown all the time, where is the challenge?

 

No cooldowns doesn't mean spamming. Infinity Engine games didn't have cooldowns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay. So 8 hour cooldowns and 24 hour health regens would be okay with you then? You said you were looking for a challenge, right?

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

.
.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not sure which project you are backing but according to the Kickstarter page Project Eternity combat will use a tactial real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities will be the key to success.

 

If you can just spam your most powerful ability with no cooldown all the time, where is the challenge?

 

No cooldowns doesn't mean spamming. Infinity Engine games didn't have cooldowns.

 

But didn't? Just because the cool down was 24 hours or however often you rested, doesn't make it any less limited.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dislike mana pools, ESPECIALLY if they are slow to refill. If I have to sit around and wait after each fight, that's a major design flaw.

Have you considered that maybe you are not supposed to burn precious resources in each fight? And that the price for wasting your resources is to wait for them to regenerate or go to the next fight in disadvantage?

 

Personally, playing games like BG, ID or NwN, I wasn't spending all my magic spells in just one fight (unless we were talking bosses or difficult fight). I payed attention to the number of arrows and their types for my characters (Archer kit ftw!). I certainly didn't spam/abuse the sleep/rest option. And I was having fun in the process.

 

Having hit points system already makes combat not so deadly. If you also make it so you easily start each combat totally fresh in resources... meh. Then you force each encounter to be "Hard" because you cannot challenge the player with chained encounters (not talking about those stupid waves of DA2). You limit the strategic/tactical options in dungeon design. But I suppose that resource "micromanagement" beyond potions is "unfun".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not sure which project you are backing but according to the Kickstarter page Project Eternity combat will use a tactial real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities will be the key to success.

 

If you can just spam your most powerful ability with no cooldown all the time, where is the challenge?

 

No cooldowns doesn't mean spamming. Infinity Engine games didn't have cooldowns.

 

But didn't? Just because the cool down was 24 hours or however often you rested, doesn't make it any less limited.

 

Resting isn't a cooldown.

 

Resting recharges all of your abilities. A cooldown is per-ability. Resting is initiated by the player whenever he wants, giving him more control. Cooldowns are automatic. You can only rest when it's safe. Cooldowns happen in the middle of combat.

 

In short, they are completely different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dislike mana pools, ESPECIALLY if they are slow to refill. If I have to sit around and wait after each fight, that's a major design flaw.

Have you considered that maybe you are not supposed to burn precious resources in each fight? And that the price for wasting your resources is to wait for them to regenerate or go to the next fight in disadvantage?

 

Personally, playing games like BG, ID or NwN, I wasn't spending all my magic spells in just one fight (unless we were talking bosses or difficult fight). I payed attention to the number of arrows and their types for my characters (Archer kit ftw!). I certainly didn't spam/abuse the sleep/rest option. And I was having fun in the process.

 

Having hit points system already makes combat not so deadly. If you also make it so you easily start each combat totally fresh in resources... meh. Then you force each encounter to be "Hard" because you cannot challenge the player with chained encounters (not talking about those stupid waves of DA2). You limit the strategic/tactical options in dungeon design. But I suppose that resource "micromanagement" beyond potions is "unfun".

 

I see what you are saying, and I agree to a certain extent, but also, if a character is a mage, I want them to cast spells, not be a mediocre shot with a sling who then can blow up the town once a day.

 

I am not sure which project you are backing but according to the Kickstarter page Project Eternity combat will use a tactial real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities will be the key to success. If you can just spam your most powerful ability with no cooldown all the time, where is the challenge?
No cooldowns doesn't mean spamming. Infinity Engine games didn't have cooldowns.
But didn't? Just because the cool down was 24 hours or however often you rested, doesn't make it any less limited.
Resting isn't a cooldown. Resting recharges all of your abilities. A cooldown is per-ability. Resting is initiated by the player whenever he wants, giving him more control. Cooldowns are automatic. You can only rest when it's safe. Cooldowns happen in the middle of combat. In short, they are completely different.

 

Would then having limits per encounter be better? Sort of like a sorcerer's spell selection except it works per incident as opposed to per day? It still feels a bit gimmicky to me, but I totally get why some people might not be on board with cool downs.

Edited by DCParry
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some sort of a diminishing returns effect on spell could work. Spamming spells over and over could require more mana or whatever if you cast them often(2 times in 10 minutes causes twice the mana cost for these medium tier spells). Some spells would be one use only until rested(major spells). And a simple spells would be at will.

 

 

Basically, D&D's, At-will powers, encounter powers and daily powers.

My thoughts on how character powers and urgency could be implemented:

http://forums.obsidi...nse-of-urgency/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...