Jump to content
Dalliance5

Do you want firearms in Project Eternity?

Do you want to firearms in Project Eternity?  

814 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you want firearms in Project Eternity?



Recommended Posts

Ya, love that book.

 

To your point, if I was a colonist and some SOB handed me a longbow, I'd pass it to the next guy till I got a gun.

 

English longbows were superior to early guns in certain qualities. They had better range and accuracy, for example, in addition to reloading more quickly. Crossbows I'll grant you though - they're essentially low power guns.

 

Ok, thank wikipedia for this, but apparently here is the history.

 

1. Arquebus - early 16th century, sucked, only good in large vollies, bow/xbow = better

2. Musket, ok, better than bow and xbow @ 16th century in most situations

3. Rifle, way better, bow/xbow = useless

 

Quote: "The cost of gunpowder also gradually fell. By the 16th century the handheld firearm became commonplace, replacing the crossbow and longbow in all advanced armies"

 

If you have guns, then all bows/xbows are useless in the world (or should be). The arquebus was quickly improved. Sucky guns were only around for a short time. Best not to have them at all unless you want to trivialize bows/xbows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

English longbows were superior to early guns in certain qualities. They had better range and accuracy, for example, in addition to reloading more quickly. Crossbows I'll grant you though - they're essentially low power guns.

 

Ok, thank wikipedia for this, but apparently here is the history.

 

1. Arquebus - early 16th century, sucked, only good in large vollies, bow/xbow = better

2. Musket, ok, better than bow and xbow @ 16th century in most situations

3. Rifle, way better, bow/xbow = useless

 

Quote: "The cost of gunpowder also gradually fell. By the 16th century the handheld firearm became commonplace, replacing the crossbow and longbow in all advanced armies"

 

If you have guns, then all bows/xbows are useless in the world (or should be). The arquebus was quickly improved. Sucky guns were only around for a short time. Best not to have them at all unless you want to trivialize bows/xbows.

 

Except in your own words, bows were better than arquebuses and occasionally (and situationally) better than muskets.

 

My point is, yes, guns were altogether, taken as a whole, an improvement in technology over longbows. But they didn't phase them out or obsolete them completely. Nor did they eliminate the (much more inefficient) yumi in Sengoku era Japan. Different tools for different purposes.

Edited by Nivenus

"Understanding is a three-edged blade."

"Vivis sperandum: Where there is life, there is hope."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, having guns in the games is ok if it's down more Arcanum like or more "fantasy" guns. old school style steampunk/weird guns with magic elemetns or things.

 

I don't want to see modern military generic types of guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, having guns in the games is ok if it's down more Arcanum like or more "fantasy" guns. old school style steampunk/weird guns with magic elemetns or things.

 

I don't want to see modern military generic types of guns.

 

As covered in the "What we know..." thread, J.E. Sawyer has already confirmed that guns will be a relatively recent invention and fairly uncommon in the gameworld. So I'm thinking it'll mostly be flintlocks and arquebuses, with maybe the occasional musket. Less advanced than steampunk, in other words.

Edited by Nivenus

"Understanding is a three-edged blade."

"Vivis sperandum: Where there is life, there is hope."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

EDIT: Removed. This had already been covered but I didn't notice. Sorry.

Edited by Arundor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where's the "Doesn't matter to me?" poll option? ;)

 

I think guns in a more medieval setting could be interesting. Guns vs. magic ... I've read books like that and it can work well. So I'm open to the idea. I'd would rather not have guns = too modern a setting, however. It's fantasy - it doesn't have to follow Earth history in terms of what (for example) clothing or cultural style period goes with what tech.

  • Like 1

“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, but I won't be heartbroken if they're there.

 

EDIT: I should say, "I'm not heartbroken that they will be there."

Edited by Tamerlane

jcod0.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I don't like them and would avoid using them if it were possible. Every game I've played that's had guns and bows and magic all at once has felt incongruous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh God why?? Why firearms in PE?? Dont want to play fantasy game mixes with steampunk ....;[ It should be a game like BG or ID. Truly fantasy world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh God why?? Why firearms in PE?? Dont want to play fantasy game mixes with steampunk ....;[ It should be a game like BG or ID. Truly fantasy world.

 

Everyone keeps on assuming guns = steampunk. That is simply false and belies an unfortunately common misconception about medieval warfare.

 

As many, many posters have pointed out, guns existed long before the modern steam engine was invented and quite a bit before it became widespread. Furthermore, guns coexisted with more "traditional" fantasy arms like swords, pikes, and even bows for a couple centuries easily enough. Hell, plate armor postdates the invention of firearms: Gothic plate armor first gained popularity in the 16th century, which is two hundred years after hand cannons were introduced and one hundred after the introduction of arquebuses.

Edited by Nivenus
  • Like 3

"Understanding is a three-edged blade."

"Vivis sperandum: Where there is life, there is hope."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope and think the intention is to give the player an opener for a fight: you fire your handgun once and after that you go into melee since it'll take time to reload your weapon.

I assume we won't see someone going all rambo on the enemies with a mg or even a revolver. I think revolvers were invented sometime in the 19th century and it would make sense if you only get a single shot weapon with a long reload. Maybe even with a fuse and good luck trying to use it during rain :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At this point I accept that guns are going to be in the game, though I voted that I prefer they not be. And as long as they are implemented in the way we've been told, then I'll live with them. That said, I do think it is a little misleading to promote the game as being a spiritual successor to classic fantasy setting games and then not offer a classic fantasy setting. Note that we'd not really know anything about the guns if someone hadn't found that artwork and had Sawyer not confirmed it was PE related.

 

Historical arguments aside, the truth is that we associate the gun with the modern world. And one of the big reasons Tolkeinesque fantasy is popular is because it reflects Tolkiens own dislike of the modern world. So from that standpoint I find the idea a bit unnecessary, and for the same reasons found the old Might and Magiic games introduction of guns late rather pointless.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that if you are going to implement guns then go all the way and do a steampunk game like Arcanum. If you want fantasy go classic fantasy. Trying to blur the lines may be artistically interesting, but runs a high risk of alienating some people as well. And from a pure marketing standpoint, the upcoming Hobbit films will likely create another boom for classic fantasy anyway.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That said, I do think it is a little misleading to promote the game as being a spiritual successor to classic fantasy setting games and then not offer a classic fantasy setting.

 

They also said it was a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment, which is anything but a traditional fantasy setting, even if Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale are. So I think you were reading something into their statements that Obsidian didn't really intend.

 

Note that we'd not really know anything about the guns if someone hadn't found that artwork and had Sawyer not confirmed it was PE related.

 

I think that's a bit unfair. For one thing, Tim Cain mentioned there were guns in a Eurogamer interview separately from Sawyer's comments. Furthermore, Sawyer didn't have to say the concept art was for Project Eternity and the artist needn't have made the art available if they wanted to keep the presence of firearms a "secret" as you imply.

 

The truth is that Obsidian has long had a reputation of playing with standard genre expectations and I find it surprising you expected something a bit more vanilla.

 

Historical arguments aside, the truth is that we associate the gun with the modern world. And one of the big reasons Tolkeinesque fantasy is popular is because it reflects Tolkiens own dislike of the modern world. So from that standpoint I find the idea a bit unnecessary, and for the same reasons found the old Might and Magiic games introduction of guns late rather pointless.

 

But Tolkien isn't the end all, be all of fantasy (much as I admire him and enjoy his works). There's plenty of other examples of fantasy that exhibit a different attitude towards technology and modernism, from Terry Pratchett (whose settings seem to be a blend of modern, medieval, and Victorian-era culture) to George R.R. Martin (which has a very cynical view of medieval culture).

 

I guess what I'm saying is that if you are going to implement guns then go all the way and do a steampunk game like Arcanum. If you want fantasy go classic fantasy. Trying to blur the lines may be artistically interesting, but runs a high risk of alienating some people as well. And from a pure marketing standpoint, the upcoming Hobbit films will likely create another boom for classic fantasy anyway.

 

If Obsidian was interested in going a "safe" route with Project Eternity they wouldn't have put it up on Kickstarter: they would have pursued investment from publishers the old-fashioned way. While it's true they may alienate some people by putting firearms in the game, it's also likely they'll alienate others by making the game isometric or using RTWP instead of a purely turn-based system. Some people are notably upset in the other direction: that the game is too traditional (i.e., is pseudo-historical fantasy with elves and dwarves).

 

I think in all honesty that people are being a bit too prickly - we hardly know anything about the game except for some very basic ideas and concepts. Until we see these ideas in action, it's too early to say whether they work or don't work. Given Obsidian's credentials and the credentials of the people working for it, I'm willing to put my faith in their ability to make it work. But ultimately we'll have to wait and see.

  • Like 2

"Understanding is a three-edged blade."

"Vivis sperandum: Where there is life, there is hope."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As long as it's not going to be a DUDEBRO OH YEAH MACHINEGUNS kind of thing, yes to firearms. And this may be a minority opinion here, but I wouldn't like a species/race lock on firearms. That didn't happen in the real world; of course there were nations with less expertise with them who had to hire mercenaries from guns-enabled nations, but the adoption was relatively fast, either through buying, hiring, or just getting conquered by people with guns. We always like finding new ways to kill and threaten each other, after all.


Sword Sharpener of the Obsidian Order

(will also handle pitchforks and other sharp things)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they are going to include guns no matter what,then i think they should go all the way.

Meaning making technology an important part of the world,creating a technology skill branch and making a couple classes out of it.

Add a ''modern'' arsenal of items and weapons etc.

Otherwise,if they want to include only guns and nothing else technology-wise,i wouldn't agree.

Personally i would rather see this game go all the way,instead of being just another game in more or less traditional fantasy setting.

Edited by japol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think obsidian should be honest with us here... i really, really dont like how they are still hiding some basic info about their new setting. if project eternity wont be set in a typical medieval fantasy setting they should like say it out loud. taking money from old school RPG fans who expect RPG set in a high fantasy setting and then revealing their game will be set in a science fantasy world... well, that would be like really bad thing to do

and yeah, i dont buy claims that setting can still be quality medieval fantasy even with existence of firearms. there would be no need for such inventions in typical well made high fantasy world and adding guns just for the sake of it of for the "kool effect" is really bad idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is typical fantasy? Star Wars? Middle Earth? Dresden Files? I think there is plenty of room in the universe for some guns that were put in use before plate armor was widely used.

  • Like 1

Grandiose statements, cryptic warnings, blind fanboyisim and an opinion that leaves no room for argument and will never be dissuaded. Welcome to the forums, you'll go far in this place my boy, you'll go far!

 

The people who are a part of the "Fallout Community" have been refined and distilled over time into glittering gems of hatred.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think obsidian should be honest with us here... i really, really dont like how they are still hiding some basic info about their new setting. if project eternity wont be set in a typical medieval fantasy setting they should like say it out loud.

 

Are people just pretending PS:T wasn't one of the three main games mentioned as an inspiration for Project Eternity? Because honestly, it's beginning to come off that way.

 

In any case, I doubt they're adding guns because they're "kool." If anything, it's (as many posters have shown now) a risky move on their part. I imagine they added guns because they thought it would be interesting and different.

  • Like 1

"Understanding is a three-edged blade."

"Vivis sperandum: Where there is life, there is hope."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Inventions tend to happen without a need for them, though. Guns could well be an invention of two bored college mages mucking about in the alchemy lab, deciding to play 'let's destroy the other college's wall from here using that sack of overstocked saltpeter', then the janitor walks by and tells it to his kids, who tells it to the ambitious merchant next door, and the rest is history....

 

It would be interesting if guns serve a different cultural and political purpose than they do in our world. In a fantasy world, I can't see why they wouldn't. Perhaps they're a curiousity. Perhaps they're mostly hunting tools. Perhaps they're seen as crude, technological poor implements. It's hard to tell whether they 'have a place in the fantasy world' unless we know what they're supposed to be first.

Edited by Monkcrab

Sword Sharpener of the Obsidian Order

(will also handle pitchforks and other sharp things)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont buy claims that setting can still be quality medieval fantasy even with existence of firearms. there would be no need for such inventions in typical well made high fantasy world and adding guns just for the sake of it of for the "kool effect" is really bad idea.

 

 

I never got the vibe that Eternity was going to be a medieval fantasy in the first place; I see it as early Renaissance, somewhere between a Tolkienesque fantasy world and Eberron magipunk. It's Middle Earth growing up. And I do think there would be the need for such inventions ESPECIALLY in a high fantasy world, if only to equalize things between eternally put-upon civilians and the high-ranking nobility- after all, remember that the only reason guns became popular over weapons like the longbow (which was unmatched for firing rate and penetration until around the 17th/18th Centuries) was because they were quicker and easier to make as well as train with than longbows, which demanded such dedication from its users it literally warped their skeletons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the replies. I apologize for limiting the poll to yes/no responses, just my inexperience showing. Instead I should have set it up as:

  • Definitely yes
  • Maybe yes
  • Indifferent
  • Maybe no
  • Definitely no

To summarize, the general feeling among respondants seems to be "yes or probably yes, IF appropriate to the setting."

Surprisingly, no-one's mentioned the Easter egg prize in Baldur's Gate I/II for solving the bronze/silver/gold pantaloons enigma - the Big Metal Rod grenade launcher! Also, in Dragon Age the Qunari (who also have mages among them) had gunpowder/cannons, so it would be only a matter of time until hand-held firearms would be developed.

I'm hoping the designers will make the firearms magic-based to some extent or have magic versions (think of the daemonic weapons in Warhammer 40K), perhaps even with sentience. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that P:E should be a shooting fest.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that P:E should be a shooting fest.

 

Fear not, I think we got that :) That said, I have proposed magic firearms elsewhere, but just like any proper magic item, they should be both rare and special, not available for purchase off the shelf at Mysterio's Magic Mart™.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe not accesible at an early level, but after a discovery of the skills necesary to craft and work one, to higher lvl ranged characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...