Weapon mechanics

[Karranthain]

In most cRPGs weapons are usually fairly similar to each other; most of the time the only difference is the amount of damage dealt. I think every weapon type (well, within reason of course) should offer a unique set of boni and (ideally) ought introduce a different playstyle. Here are a few ideas and suggestions (some may be obvious, most are pretty abstract, so be warned) :

 

1) Weapon reach :

 

e.g. Pikes or Spears should allow your team members to attack from a greater distance, confering a serious advantage in some cases, but becoming a liability in close quarters.

 

2) Critical hit effects are different for each weapon type. E.g. :

 

a) Greatswords would deal 200% more damage on critical hits and have a 5% chance to dismember the foe, resulting in an instant death.

b) Rapiers would deal 100% more damage on critical hits and apply a bleeding effect.

c) Hammers would deal 150% more more damage on critical hits and stun the target.

 

 

3) Smaller and generally obvious things :

 

a) Different damage ranges (e.g. Greatsword 1d10x2, Longsword 1d6x3 - this would result in a vastly different performance.

b) Armour Boni and penalties - (e.g. Swords are worse at piercing chainmail, but great against leather, Rapiers are useless against plate).

c) Various speeds - self-explanatory.

d) Weapon perks - (e.g. Greatswords are harder to parry, Pikes can impale, Pistols can jam).

e) No weapon type should ever be considered "the best". They should all have their uses.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Karranthain

[Orogun01]

Great post, you should make a game with said stats.

Me, I don't really care as long as is not game breaking, overpowered and makes sense.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Claymores should do crushing damage. A random guy in the blacksmith in Gretna gave me a lecture for about an hour on the subject...lol.

[Karranthain]

Claymores should do crushing damage. A random guy in the blacksmith in Gretna gave me a lecture for about an hour on the subject...lol.

 

Claymores, who doesn't love them?

 

Unless, of course, you're subjected to crushing damage yourself.

[MNOne]

I like these suggestions - especially if there's a difference between different 'classes' of weapons.

Are rapiers different from cutlasses, for example? WIll some armour-weapon combos work well/better? - i.e. lighter armour which allows for more movement paired with a fast sword which does slightly less damage but has a higher critical hit chance.

 

On that last note, do general modifiers based on armour (or other equipment) types seem feasible? Very-heavy armour slowing attack rate - very slightly, mind, and by a %age - for example?

 

 

 

It's not a must-have, but it would add extra depth, and the differences seem such that, at first glance, they wouldn't break the game.

If I wasn't bothered about ensuring a sword fighter had a certain bonus associated with a rapier, I could just 'brute-force' the playthrough and get by by giving him whatever I found that was better than he already had (rather than search the shops for/craft a specific type). Battles might be easier with more forethought, or be accomplished with more finesse, but it wouldn't stop me playing and winning if I didn't bother to compare every stat in minute detail.

 

 

 

That said, point (e) I would regard as a must-have.

Edited September 17, 2012 by MNOne

[entrerix]

you know, i'd normally love to write up a whole long winded post about weapon mechanics, but with Sawyer involved, im gonna trust that he's going to pay appropriate care to the weapon system.

 

so i'll wait until he posts some of his ideas/plans

 

edit: ok i can't resist a little

 

i really prefer systems that make weapon choice really matter. a warrior who specializes in using a shield and a shortspear should feel very different from a warrior who specializes in fighting with a two handed sword.

Edited September 17, 2012 by entrerix

[1varangian]

I hope they get away from DnD mechanics like d20 to attack and d8 for damage.

 

Each weapon could simply just have a Damage Rating.. like Slashing 5 or Bludgeon 11. These would be modified by your Strength and Feats / attack mode / special move.

 

Armor, which I hope will actually reduce damage instead of make you harder to hit, would have a corresponding Armor Rating.

 

They could then use some more or less devious Damage vs. Armor formula to calculate damage dealt to make the most out of the digital platform.

 

Likewise I hope Attack Rating / Accuracy / Defense Rating will be presented in percentage values because they are the most comprehensible ones. 60% Attack Rate vs. 30% Defense Rate = 42% probability of landing a hit.

[MNOne]

I hope they get away from DnD mechanics like d20 to attack and d8 for damage.

 

Each weapon could simply just have a Damage Rating.. like Slashing 5 or Bludgeon 11. These would be modified by your Strength and Feats / attack mode / special move.

 

Armor, which I hope will actually reduce damage instead of make you harder to hit, would have a corresponding Armor Rating.

 

They could then use some more or less devious Damage vs. Armor formula to calculate damage dealt to make the most out of the digital platform.

 

Likewise I hope Attack Rating / Accuracy / Defense Rating will be presented in percentage values because they are the most comprehensible ones. 60% Attack Rate vs. 30% Defense Rate = 42% probability of landing a hit.

I think I'm with you on that. And with their own IP there's a chance to do something like that.

I'd definately like to see a Defence Rating seperated from Armour Rating. That way heavier armours can give a malus to defence (slower to move/dodge, so easier to hit) but reduce the damage taken when hit. It also gives a bit more of an incentive for some characters to specialise in lighter armours than you sometimes see, where having the thickest piece of metal strapped to you is the best option.

[TedFaster]

First off Karranthain I fell that you avatar is *known* to me, wonder why

 

A deep and meaning full "system-of-weapon-mechanics" would be great.

Edited September 17, 2012 by TedFaster

[Karranthain]

We will be doing an update on the technology of P:E, but in brief, the firearms of this world are relatively recent inventions and equivalent to the single-shot wheellock weapons found in 16th century Europe. Their use is uncommon and for specific purposes.

 

With this confirmation, I though I'd add some of my thoughts on firearm mechanics.

 

First of all, one thing that's worth pointing out is that most games featuring those contraptions make the mistake of treating them like reskinned bows with different animations. I find such design majorly flawed; not because it's unrealistic (it obviously is), but mainly because it's a missed opportunity. I feel firearms should operate differently, simply because it opens up interesting gameplay options. With that said, here are some ideas (and again, some are largely obvious, but I'm including them as well to present a coherent solution) :

 

 

1) General thoughts :

 

Firearms should deal devastating damage, particularly at close ranges; gunpowder based weapons' niche should be primarily armour penetration.

They're also quite easy to use effectively, even with little training (unlike bows).

Such power comes at a price, however. Effective range should be fairly low and there's always a risk of a misfire (more on that later).

 

 

2) Reload time :

 

In order to further differentiate firearms from other projectile weapons, reloading times should be fairly long (that'd also balance the devastating damage dealt by those). Generally speaking, once a firearm is discharged in a combat encounter, it means it probably won't be used again in that particular clash. Unless, of course, the player elects to reload, which should be fairly time consuming (not prohibitively so, but long enough so that that decision wouldn't be made lightly).

 

E.g. Pistols would be usually used as a close range weapon, to quickly dispatch a foe; misses would be costly, however. Unless the user is festooned with them.

 

That, I think, would be in line with what Josh has said about firearms (i.e. "Their use is uncommon and for specific purposes").

 

 

3) Misfires :

 

While powerful, early firearms could also be dangerous. There should be a chance of weapon not firing at all, or even (in very rare cases) blowing up. Rain should render guns unusable. That'd not only reinforce their uniqueness, but it'd also serve as a balancing measure. On top of that, it'd bring wonderful tension into combat (Space Hulk anyone?).

 

 

4) Affecting morale :

 

If there'd be morale checks in combat, firearms should definitely be considered frightening, particularly because they're supposedly uncommon in the game world.

 

 

5) Keeping in line with the unique critical hits effect idea :

 

Firearms would deal 200% more damage on critical hits and ignore armour completely.

 

 

 

First off Karranthain I fell that you avatar is *known* to me, wonder why

 

Strength lies in *knowing* your avatar.

[Kargos]

I definitely would like to see different weapons have varied stats and uses, as it gives a party more options in tackling different combat situations.

[DCParry]

Some good ideas above about firearms. I like the idea, especially with pistols, that this is a once a fight shot.

 

As for misfiring, I am usually against random chance doing something fairly terrible to you, but I wonder if we could think about some factors that might increase misfiring:

 

- every time you take damage you increase the chance of a misfire

- reloading in combat gives an increased change of misfire

- this chance is further increased if you take damage while reloading your firearm in combat

- there might specific status affects (daze, disorient and so on) that increase your chance as well.

 

This would add the problem of misfire but make it manageable.

[DYWYPI]

Personally, I'd rather see non-obvious weapon-specific bonuses (ie. ones with a more abstract justification than "halberds have reach because they're long") be player-side rather than weapon-side - that is, to be based on the PC's skill/talent/feat/whatever-you-want-to-call-them choices that specialize in that weapon type, not just specific to the weapon - or just reserved for magical weapons and artifacts. It feels more symmetrical to have all weapons use the same basic system prior to modifications from PC abilities and enchantments.

 

Also, I hope we'll be seeing D&D-style fixed base damage for each type of weapon, none of this "Inferior Cardboard Longsword deals 1-5 damage, Steel Longsword deals 4-13 damage, Glowing Fey Blade deals 55-203 damage" nonsense.

[KateM]

Some good ideas above about firearms. I like the idea, especially with pistols, that this is a once a fight shot.

 

As for misfiring, I am usually against random chance doing something fairly terrible to you, but I wonder if we could think about some factors that might increase misfiring:

 

- every time you take damage you increase the chance of a misfire

- reloading in combat gives an increased change of misfire

- this chance is further increased if you take damage while reloading your firearm in combat

- there might specific status affects (daze, disorient and so on) that increase your chance as well.

 

This would add the problem of misfire but make it manageable.

I don't like the idea of misfires, especially when you already have a chance to miss and probably the longest reload time in the game.

 

Generally speaking, once a firearm is discharged in a combat encounter, it means it probably won't be used again in that particular clash. Unless, of course, the player elects to reload, which should be fairly time consuming (not prohibitively so, but long enough so that that decision wouldn't be made lightly).

 

A musket takes 10-15 seconds to reload in real life. If I recall correctly some spells in BG2 could take that long to cast. If you are able to keep your firearms character out of melee I think that justifies being able to reload and deliver a high-damage attack two or three times during the fight.

[Leferd]

Knowing Sawyer et al, these mechanics will be something that a great deal of thought will be allocated to.

 

I'll trust his (their) judgment as professional game designers. Granted, some are better than others, but I appreciate Josh's sensibilities in this area in particular.

[Karranthain]

Some good ideas above about firearms. I like the idea, especially with pistols, that this is a once a fight shot.

 

As for misfiring, I am usually against random chance doing something fairly terrible to you, but I wonder if we could think about some factors that might increase misfiring:

 

- every time you take damage you increase the chance of a misfire

- reloading in combat gives an increased change of misfire

- this chance is further increased if you take damage while reloading your firearm in combat

- there might specific status affects (daze, disorient and so on) that increase your chance as well.

 

This would add the problem of misfire but make it manageable.

 

I like those ideas, they'd further reinforce the "high risk and high reward" playstyle of firearms.

When you think about it, Wild Mages were somewhat similar in BG2 and I think plenty of people enjoyed playing as them.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I'm a big dark souls fan and how they handle weapons and their different abilities is great. A rapier can be used to make a fast jab and hide behind your shield while your enemy bleeds and a claymore's sweeping attack (which can leave you exposed) takes out 3 guys but it can also be used in a lunge attack. I know it's a different game type but those things can be easily moved to abilities and effects rather than direct action. You can also upgrade to certain types like 'divine' which work from your 'faith' stat rather than strength. Which I also adore.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Thraxen]

I want to see if there will be short spears that you can use more like a staff as well as a spear depending on what you're fighting. You could bludgeon/slash a lightly armoured enemy, or try and run a more heavily armoured one through.

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

Someone posted about certain armor-weapon combinations that work better toghether, and that is one thing I'd like to see. One another thing I'd like, would be that armors have % ratings when it comes to different weapon types. For example, a plate armor would only take 75% damage from slashing weapons, while taking the usual(100%) from, say, blunt weapons.

 

But then guns. I'd like them to be like summoning a demon without casting protection from evil first. It can prove devastatingly effective, or it can backfire in a way most horrid.

[Karranthain]

Someone posted about certain armor-weapon combinations that work better toghether, and that is one thing I'd like to see. One another thing I'd like, would be that armors have % ratings when it comes to different weapon types. For example, a plate armor would only take 75% damage from slashing weapons, while taking the usual(100%) from, say, blunt weapons.

 

 

Yeah, definitely. For an instance, rapiers wouldn't work too well with full plate armour.

 

I agree about the armour ratings as well, that'd make no type superior to others, just different.

 

But then guns. I'd like them to be like summoning a demon without casting protection from evil first. It can prove devastatingly effective, or it can backfire in a way most horrid.

 

Exactly! It's a piece of uncommon and very new technology. I've mentioned Space Hulk boardgame before, jamming mechanics brought amazing tension into the fights.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Karranthain

[Thraxen]

Considering the armour resistances idea, maybe there could be some kind of penalty to dual wielding two weapons if one of them is much heavier than the other. Say if you were using a mace and a short sword, giving you extra versatility in a fight against both heavily armoured and quicker, squishier enemies. The mace would be a fair bit heavier than the sword, so maybe there'd be a penalty to how quickly you can swing because of it, seeing as how most o the time dual wielding focuses on flowing your attacks with the momentum from your last one.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Rain should render guns unusable.

 

THAT. I want rain spells, and I want them to be useful (besides the obvious "increased damage of frost/lightning type attacks").

[Thraxen]

Rain should render guns unusable.

 

THAT. I want rain spells, and I want them to be useful (besides the obvious "increased damage of frost/lightning type attacks").

 

But guns can work in rain, just not as reliably.

[Karranthain]

THAT. I want rain spells, and I want them to be useful (besides the obvious "increased damage of frost/lightning type attacks").

 

Yeah, that's another nice thing. Weaves in nice opportunities for some not so obvious spells.

 

 

 

But guns can work in rain, just not as reliably.

 

True enough, but I think it'd be bring some interesting opportunities. It could be a high chance of failure instead?

[Thraxen]

True enough, but I think it'd be bring some interesting opportunities. It could be a high chance of failure instead?

 

Sure, but it'd just misfire. Maybe fire spells could cause it to backfire horribly, possibly even destroying the gun? Lightning too, I suppose.