SW: The Old Republic Part 4

[Spider]

Perosnally I just don't care either way. I can understand why they're being removed and I explained as such. If I have access to those abilities I will use them, but not having them won't affect my gameplay in any significant manner. I'm not the one complaining about there being too many abilities, in fact I argued against it in this very thread. I just pointed out there are people who feel that way.

 

Why you're bringing pvp in to this particular discussion I don't know, since those abilities have never been usable in PVP. They're PVE abilities being removed for PVE reasons. But in regards to your question, according to Bioware information a while back, over half of their playerbase engage in pvp from time to time, so yeah pvp players are the pre-dominant type of player, or at least used to be.

 

I would personally love to have all classes have different skill trees for pve and pvp, I think that'd be awesome. It's a non-trivial thing to implement though and this game wasn't designed with that scope in mind, so I'm pretty sure that's something we'll never see.

[Hassat Hunter]

Because the general consensus seems that BioWare removed them merely because "they're useless in pvp"... nevermind they can be useful in PvE. And it has nothing to do with it's PvE-functionality.

 

If that is infact true, and it may be seeing more changed are based for PvP-balance only, that's a good signal it goes entirely the wrong way (IMO) with TOR. Ilum was bad enough, I hate to see 2.0 top it as worst patch ever...

 

Lastly, doing a wz from time to time is pretty different from wanting to do PvP all the time. If people want that, they could use the PVP-server. Why again is it forced down our throats when it's perfectly possibly to full go for at the side with the warzones?

I even noticed they sneaked in one of the latest patches (as it's not in any changelog) how entering an enemy base triggers the PvP-flag. I remember good times chilling out with Imperials on Hoth about 2 months ago. Tried now, got that flag on my pants. Good thing the entire base was deserted though...

Still left me with the "joy" of removing that damn infection (5 min standing still + unknown travel time going out-of-the-way from what you're doing).

 

Also another fun anecdote. Was doing Ilum event. Someone died on the heroic, his team fled. So I figured I would be nice and revive him. BAM. PvP flag. Tell me... why the heck is that an act of PvP? Seriously?

[alanschu]

Reviving someone with their PvP flag on has always been something that would get you flagged for PvP in other games I played.  Doing any sort of advantage to a flagged person while not in a decidedly friendly zone will get you flagged.  Imagine if there was a big fight and one guy not flagged for PvP just went around reviving everyone and there was nothing you could do about it.

[Spider]

Using abilities on someone pvp flagged has, as Alan said, always flagged you. Same with entering the opposite factions base. If you remember hanging with imperials in their base on hoth, frankly your memory is wrong. That's never been possible.

 

And no, I don't believe there is any sort of consensus that those abilities were removed due to their uselessness in pvp, nor do I think that most changes are pvp focused.

 

Since the game launched, there have been a grand total of 4 pvp updates, if we count the ilum event (which had more pve elements than pvp ones, and no one was forced to dp the pvp ones, and even in the pvp zone fighting was rare). They've gotten two warzones, the ranked system, and now a quarter of an event. PvE players have gotten a fair bit more and are about to get an expansion. True the expansion will update the pvp systems a little as well, but all the actual content (from what I've seen so far) will be pve based.

[Hassat Hunter]

Checking back my screenshots, I must have been. But if I entered those bases each and everytime with pvp on without me realising, it should show how much of a plague the thing is.

(No-one attacked us though)

MUCH too easy to catch, MUCH too hard to get rid off

 

Also, I can't check if the person revived is flagged or not. How should I know?

Imagine if there was a big fight and one guy not flagged for PvP just went around reviving everyone and there was nothing you could do about it.

Replace "reviving" with 'healing' and you apparently have another one of the Imperials favorite grieving-moves of the moment. Namely healing the Gree Core Defender. Without flag. And nothing you can do against it.

Welcome to Ilum, the worst designed event ever.

 

Good thing it goes today.

 

As for the often called "you can avoid Ilum PvP" and "you were never forced";

1) PvE goals were twice as long (20 items instead of 15, more spread out too).

2) PvE goals give green rep, PvP blue rep, giving 3x as much rep.

3) You can complete the PvE heroic in the PvP sector in the time it costs to take down 1 champion in the PvE section.

 

So sure, you could avoid PvP... if you want to do 6x as much work. Sure it's not 'forcing', just a super-big nudge if you want anything out of this event. Not all of us have 6 characters to run through PvE over-and-over-and-over...

[melkathi]

Hassat,

just do what I resigned myself to doing:

Don't log in a MMO during events

[Spider]

Good thing it goes today.

 

As for the often called "you can avoid Ilum PvP" and "you were never forced";

1) PvE goals were twice as long (20 items instead of 15, more spread out too).

2) PvE goals give green rep, PvP blue rep, giving 3x as much rep.

3) You can complete the PvE heroic in the PvP sector in the time it costs to take down 1 champion in the PvE section.

 

So sure, you could avoid PvP... if you want to do 6x as much work. Sure it's not 'forcing', just a super-big nudge if you want anything out of this event. Not all of us have 6 characters to run through PvE over-and-over-and-over...

 

You never did the pvp pylon quest did you? It's by far the quest that takes the longest to complete. It's also the only pvp quest to give a blue token, the other one gives a green.

 

And while the heroic and the combat specimen quest were a bit long, the other three quests were much faster than any of the pvp quests.

 

Doing just PvE would give you 2 blues and three greens each day (once you had newcomer, 1 less blue prior). That's (630x2 + 270x3) 2070 per day. Enough to max out your reputation each week, but not enough to store enough coms to get to champion, at least not by doing it on one character.

 

However, killing Xenoanalyst II gives you purple ones, and more of the tokens you need to actually get any of the rewards in the event (which by the way the pvp quests provide none of). So doing only PvE quests would give you another 2880 rep per week. So the event was hardly pvp biased.

 

I do agree that it was much beneficial to do the heroic in the pvp zone, but that's because if you do you accept the risk of being ganked or otherwise disrupted. I think that's a perfectly fair trade-off.

 

So doing only PvE quests on one character, the first days you'd get 270x3 + 630 each day, until you get to 7500, which would be completed on the fifth day (remember you get 630 to start it off as well), then you'd get another blue each day, like I said. You'd also get 1440 for doing the run-around-plants quest.

 

So first week you'd get 16920. Any subsequent week you'd get 17370, for a grand total of 51660 from just doing all the pve quests once a day on one character, not touching the pvp at all.

 

You only need 40000 to get to champion, so even skipping the quests for about 5 days would still be fine. Of course, you're F2P player, which changes the math significantly. You get one third less reputation points for each object, which would result in 34000 total (slightly less even since it'd take a little longer to get Newcomer), though with a single alt running just the quest inside the ship once per day, you'd make 40k easily. If you only have one character at 50 though, then yes as a F2P player you'd have to pvp some to get to 40k reputation.

 

Another thing. The pvp flag is very easy to get rid of. hang around in a safe zone for five minutes (like your shipt, the fleet, your factions camp on ilum) and it'll go away automatically. Unless you toggled it manually, then you have to toggle it off first, then wait for five mins.

 

I agree that getting rid of it should be easier, at least when going in and out of the pvp zone (flag inside, remove it once you exit), but waiting for five mins isn't that bad

[alanschu]

Healing flagged players should, IMO, flag the healer for PVP as well.  If it didn't then that is likely a bug.

[Hassat Hunter]

You never did the pvp pylon quest did you? It's by far the quest that takes the longest to complete. It's also the only pvp quest to give a blue token, the other one gives a green.

You probably skipped a few of my posts in this thread. Especially the ones mentioning how horrid the pylon quest is. I've done it a few times though. Becomes more bearable if you get 4 people with orbs, then just trigger all 4 in a row, done.

And when there are no grievers. Which is a matter of pure luck :/

the other three quests were much faster than any of the pvp quests.

One requiring several rep already (which was limited if you avoided pvp), and one that generally so many people wandered around killing any of them in one of the 3 camps was still a trial taking longer than the pvp quests. The gree elite + follow up agreed on though.

Also helped by there being a lot more of than the others, and actually requiring 1 instead of 20.

That's (630x2 + 270x3) 2070 per day.

Cut by 50% for non-subs. And yeah, enough for weekly cap, if you did it each day. I'm really not that fond of doing it daily, so rather take those 2 pvp along and do it only, say, thrice a week instead, max.

 

Can't speak about op-boss (again, f2p. I rather spend my credits on the weekly for actual ops).

And I am sure many subs too also don't do the ops regularly since finding 8/16 people can be hard, and the results ultra-random depending on who joins...

Add repair costs being insanely high since 1.7.

I do agree that it was much beneficial to do the heroic in the pvp zone, but that's because if you do you accept the risk of being ganked or otherwise disrupted. I think that's a perfectly fair trade-off.

The problem arising you could *still* be ganked and grieved doing the PvE pylons. Especially in the first few days that was used extensively, it did die down a bit after that.

Then again, so did the PvP zone die down, making it even more easy in comparisson...

So first week you'd get 16920. Any subsequent week you'd get 17370, for a grand total of 51660 from just doing all the pve quests once a day on one character, not touching the pvp at all.

Impressive. Still, it would require you to play for 2 weeks each day. Something most of us I think have no time for. So to still get enough rep than we do need the pvp cut.

It's like the repair costs. Hardcore players saying "don't whine, you can just do dailies 2 hours to get it back"... but do you really want to do so if you play 6 hours per week. Spend 33% of it on dailies? I wouldn't think so.

then yes as a F2P player you'd have to pvp some to get to 40k reputation.

Uhuh. And what incentive does BW thinks we have to sub if we're forced to pvp when not wanting. I would think more would give up than going "well, I will pay $15 now to not pvp". Paying to not pvp is a bad way to promote subscription.

Another thing. The pvp flag is very easy to get rid of. hang around in a safe zone for five minutes (like your shipt, the fleet, your factions camp on ilum) and it'll go away automatically. Unless you toggled it manually, then you have to toggle it off first, then wait for five mins.

No, you still need to toggle it on (amazing, eh) then off for the 5 min to start.

And hanging around for that time while I rather want to go out and questing for, what, playing the game? I really don't need *that* many forced snack/toilet stops, thank you very much...

Healing flagged players should, IMO, flag the healer for PVP as well.  If it didn't then that is likely a bug.

They're healing NPC enemies. As such, the PvP system sees no problem with it at all. And... that's the problem.

[Hassat Hunter]

Had to leave, so my previous reply was shorter than I wanted...

 

I've payed for TOR about the same as I do the avarage title on Steam, so I am not entirely "freeriding." Still many see me as freeloader for playing f2p. Well, so be it. It's said the $15 per month is for patches and new content and generally 'support'... but there have been many many times I wished they would just stopped with trying to add stuff. Especially since each patch makes the game worse and worse. Lag, crashes, GTN issues, repair costs. Everything's up for grabs for making worse with any patch. Tuesday is more a day of dread than "joy, content/patch"...

 

It's not a secret I think the future for TOR is bleak. It's a rather nice game, but the development team is doing their best to run what they got into the ground. Should I feel guilty playing the good stuff free? Even if that was made by people probably now fired or doing other stuff. Should I pay $15 a month to support the de-construction of the game and general slopiness.

When I know the current devs are running the game into the ground, would it make sense to add more money to it to make the crash that much harder, or just quitely (and free) await the crashday and then just basically shrug it off since I didn't put that much investment in it.

 

If I had more money it would be simple (although, I probably upped my PE investment instead of spending here still XD), but I don't. I am just treating it like every other game I own. I paid it once, I have it in my possession, I play it to the max. then probably forget, and maybe return later if good enough. Am I that evil to use the same principle here instead of paying for my game each and every month again. My first Deus Ex playthrough must have lasted a year, starting and stopping. Would have become expensive. Of course that has no servers and stuff.

On the other hand, I really don't care for that I'm supposed to pay for, I would pay far more than I do now for an SP KOTOR3 instead.

 

Another theory of the schizophreny of TOR-development is the X-pack. First free. Then paid. With the promise that it lead you to lvl 55. Now the patchnotes seem to imply it's possible for all. With the rebalance everywhere and changes it would be weird to lock people to lvl 50 (especially how PvP works then). Of course, as usual, no-one from the development team clears this conflict of information up. It's very frustrating.

Of course, since I don't pay for it, and have a huge backlog of games I don't care that much for it (yes people, this is caring not much. Dread the day I do care about something a lot. I think it once costed me my moderation job in the past). I'll just see. If 2.0 ruins the game, that's it.

I really don't want to invest cash (time's no issue ) in something that's so unpredictable if it ever lands properly.

 

EDIT:

Don't think I mentioned it, but BioWare finally fixed my Artifact unlock issue. That was nice.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Hassat Hunter

[Hurlshort]

It's hard to really understand where you are coming from Hassat, since I have zero interest in PvP in any way.  As a PvE game, I think TOR is solid offering.  It does some thing really well, and some things really badly.  I'm hoping they continue to improve on it, and I'll probably find myself going back to it a few times a year to see what they've done.

 

I don't think you are freeloading or anything, but I think you are a bit impatient about some of this stuff.  It took them about two weeks to fix your artifact unlock issue, right?  That seems pretty reasonable to me.

[alanschu]

 

so I am not entirely "freeriding." Still many see me as freeloader for playing f2p.

 

Anyone that thinks this is just being elitist and stupid.  The game is offered as F2P simply so that people like yourself will play it.  If you don't feel you'd get your money's worth with a $15 subscription, don't subscribe!

[Hassat Hunter]

I don't much either. But if PvP balance or whatnot ruins my PvE experience, yeah, I'm going to be upset.

 

True. It did take several forum posts I had to let someone else make though, and about 2 ingame tickets from other people who are subs. Once I finally managed to get them, sure, but why is that barrier so high?

 

I agree Alanschu. I do get BioWare some cash, albeit indirectly by buying operation passes and other such unlocks from the GTN which are useless to subs. So I only assume they buy them to pawn them off to us (same with people posting event unlocks on the GTN for the Gree Event, smart thinking) and get credits, but it's still money for BioWare.

[Gorth]

I've had this game (f2p version) installed for months. I really should try it some day

[Raithe]

I still have to wonder.. Who the hell is picking up the Hypercrates?  Seriously, sure it's 24 whatever packs in one mass.. but 7,000 odd cartel coins??

 

That's spending about $60 just to get that...

[Hurlshort]

I had quite a few coins myself, maybe it's just subscribers?

[Raithe]

Hm, well as a subscriber I get 600 coins a month.. then another 100 per month for having the CE of the game.. So I'd have to not use any for a whooole lot of months to have enough to pick up one of those Hypercrates.

 

I can understand people getting into the aesthetics and such enough to spend 1,400 odd coins for specific sets of armour and wotnot. But over 7,000 in one go for a whole bunch of random loot?

[Raithe]

And Bioware wanting to explain what the difference is between RotHC and plain game version 2.0...

 

 

Here is a bit more clarification on the differences between Rise of the Hutt Cartel and 2.0 put as simply as I can!
What subscribers will get without purchasing Rise of the Hutt Cartel:

• Class changes and balancing levels 1-50
• Any itemization/world changes which affect levels 1-50
• Legacy Achievements

What subscribers will get if they do purchase Rise of the Hutt Cartel:

• New Operation: Scum and Villainy
• Nightmare Mode Terror From Beyond
• Upgraded level 55 Hard Mode Flashpoints
• Level cap increase to 55
• All new Makeb storyline

The new Operation and Hard Mode Flashpoints in Game Update 2.0 are Level 55 Elder Game Content. The level cap increase to 55 is included with the purchase of the Digital Expansion: Rise of the Hutt Cartel. Free-to-Play restrictions apply. Visit the Free-to-Play Features Chart for more information.

[kirottu]

What if I'm not a subscriber and I bought Rise of the Hutt Cartel?

[Raithe]

heh. I would hazard a guess you'd get all of that as well.

 

Hm, and I hadn't realised they were overhauling the commendations apparently. 

http://dulfy.net/2013/02/22/swtor-commendations-system-in-patch-2-0/

 

 

 

 

With patch 2.0, there is a major overhaul to the way commendations are handled both in the leveling process and also in the endgame section. Gone are the old planetary specific commendations and endgame commendations such as Daily Commendations, Black Hole Commendations etc. Instead, there is now a single planetary commendation during the leveling process and endgame commendations are divided into four types: Classic, Basic, Elite, and Ultimate.

• Note- There are no changes to warzone commendations or ranked warzone commendations (same storage cap, no weekly cap). . No changes to fleet commendations either (fleet comms storage cap is 19675, no weekly cap). The fleet commendations vendor has no new items.

Planetary Commendations

Instead of planetary specific commendations, all planet quests will now reward a single unified planetary commendation system.

Cap: There is a total storage cap of 100 planetary commendations with a weekly cap of 50 planetary commendations. This weekly limit means that you are unable to gain any additional planetary commendations until the weekly reset that occurs on Tuesday morning.

Acquisition:

 

• Quest rewards from various planets
• Group Finder daily (5/day for level 50 flashpoints)
• [WEEKLY] Priority Targets – kill 3 world bosses rewards 6 Planetary commendations in addition to 3 Elite, 6 Basic, and 12 Classic commendations.
• In addition, players can trade in Warzone Commendations for Planetary Commendations at an exchange rate of 40 Warzone Commendations for 1 Planetary Commendation.

This unified system allow you to do quests on any planets or PvP to earn planetary commendations. Once acquired, you can spend them on the fleet or on the individual planet vendors.

 

Classic Commendations

 

All current endgame commendations at level 50 (i.e. Black Hole, Daily) will be rolled into one single unified commendation called Classic Commendation.

 

Conversion ratios & Chart

 

• Tionese Commendations – 6:1
• Columi Commendations – 4:1
• Daily Commendations – 4:1
• Black Hole Commendations – 1:1

There will be a special overflow cap for Classic Commendations once 2.0 is released to accommodate those with large amounts of commendations. At this time, we have this cap at 800 commendations. Any commendations that exceed this amount will unfortunately be lost.

 

Acquisition: Classic Commendations are now obtainable from level 50 operations (Eternity Vault, Karagga’s Palace, and Explosive Conflict), level 50 flashpoint, and as rewards for dailies on Ilum, Belsavis and Black Hole.

• [WEEKLY] Priority Targets – kill 3 world bosses
  • Rewards 12 Classic Commendations in addition to 6 Planetary, 3 Elite, and 6 Basic Commendations

In addition, any unassembled Columi/Rakata/Campaign pieces can be exchanged for Classic Commendation containers (small ones contain 75 Classic Commendations). The vendor is on the Ziost Shadow Mission Deck for Empire players (Equivalent one for Republic) next to the Medical Droid.

 

Basic Commendations

Basic Commendations are the new leveling currency for level 50-55. These commendations will grant you access to starter Level 55 purple gear at the Basic Gear vendor.

Cap: This commendation have a storage cap of 400 with a weekly cap of 200.

Acquisition:

• Level 50 hardmode flashpoints
  • Group Finder daily rewards 10 Basic Commendations
• [WEEKLY] Priority Targets – kill 3 world bosses
  • Rewards 6 Basic Commendations along with 3 Elite, 6 Planetary, and 12 Classic Commendations
• Makeb questing

Can be spent on the Basic Gear vendor on the fleet for the following basic Level 55 purple gear.

 

Elite Commendations

These Commendations are acquired from Level 55 Operations (storymode?), hardmode flashpoints, and weekly missions. These commendations will allow you to exchange for Arkanian gear at the Elite Gear Vendor.

Cap: This commendation have a storage cap of 300 with a weekly cap of 150

Acquisition:

• Level 55 Flashpoints (hardmode): Athiss, Cademimu, Hammer Station and Madalorian Raiders
  • 2 Elite Commendation per boss, 1 for completing the flashpoint
  • 10 Elite Commendations for the Group Finder daily
  • 20 Elite Commendations from completing the [WEEKLY] Galactic Conflicts (complete 3 L55 HM FPs)
• Level 55 Operations: Terror from Beyond, Scum and Villainy
  • Scum and Villainy bosses drop 4 Elite Commendations per kill on storymode
  • Accomplished Arms Trader drops 2 Elite Commendations per kill on storymode
  • [WEEKLY] Scum and Villainy rewards 20 Elite Commendations (and 20 Ultimate Commendations)
• [WEEKLY] Priority Targets – kill 3 world bosses
  • Drops 3 Elite Commendations along with 6 Planetary, 6 Basic and 12 Classic Commendations

 

Groovy, No more going along with piles of "x planet" commendations that you never use. It's all going into one pile...

Edited March 1, 2013 by Raithe

[Spider]

Yeah, except that pile is very, very small. Planetary commendations being capped @ 50 per week means if you're going through 1 planet per evening, you'll likely be capped after the second and then not get any more.

[Raithe]

Eh, possibly. But I find the reason I don't use them is that I'm overleveled for the planet, so spending the commendations earned on that planet doesn't actually match the gear I should be using..

 

This way you should be able to spend them on gear of all levels rather then those specific points. So you shouldn't end up with saved piles...

[Spider]

Oh absolutely, unifying the comms are certainly a good thing. I just know that when you go through some planets, getting over 50 coms can be fairly fast, and then you won't be able to get new ones for a while. So if you cap out on Coruscant (which is easy to do), you may not want to get level appropriate at that time, since you won't be getting any more at taris. I'm guessing this cap is in place due to makeb, because it really makes little sense when leveling from 1-50.

 

I don't mind the weekly caps on the other types of coms, I just think it'll worsen the leveling experience for new players.

[LadyCrimson]

Post limit, time for a new version.