Why do some say Will > Attack?

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

I keep seeing people recommend Will. Very little articles/posts on this game on the web, but a few of them say Will all the way.

 

Attack is included in all your attacks, but Will is only for your abilities. Now, there are Will increasing talents, but it still usually won't matter, Attack is superior. The way I see it, somewhere around 40% more Will than Attack on a piece of gear is when you consider it. So if it's 14 Will vs 10 Attack, then maybe you can think about taking Will. And this is after doing the math with your talents (for instance, Lucas can get a 50% bonus to Will with Force Of Will, but he also can have a 20% bonus to Attack with Wrathful Might, so you have to multiple both of those every time you have a borderline decision). Basically no matter how you look at it, Attack is superior to Will because it's included in the abilities' damage. Sure, you might have a little more damage if you go with Will, but unless you use your abilities significantly more than regular attack (due to lots of Focus talents or something), it needs to be more than just a little.

 

So what's up, why are people obsessed with Will?

[Tale]

Because you'll probably be using your specials more than your regular. It's been a while since I played, but I was under the impression that Will contributes more to specials than Attack contributes to specials.

[Sannom]

So what's up, why are people obsessed with Will?

I had the impression that Attack didn't affect the abilities' damage, and indeed, why would Attack improve the damage dealt by an invocation? With that in mind, the advantages of Will over Attack are obvious:

 

- for some characters and stances, regular attacks are completely useless past a certain point while the abilities linked to them are still extremely powerful. Anjali and Lucas' crowd-control stance come to mind, with slow attack patterns but devastating abilities. Katarina, on the other end, has a stance that is completely focused on single-target damage, with an ability that does a lot of damage from the get go, so that you can forego Will and focus on Attack in order to make her regular attacks really powerful.

- abilities will often be your best way of dealing damage, especially to crowds. So getting Will up is a very good thing to do.

[Sasha_Je]

Indeed...Attack value increases damage dealt by regular attacks, while Will increases damage dealt by skills therefor Will>Attack. The only time I use regular attacks is when I need to recharge some mana, apart from that skills are the real deal. If you like Dungeon Siege III, do a test by creating the same character you have now and focus on Will/Stamina...Will is for damage of course and Stamina is for HP regen. All the HP regen skills notes that over 30 seconds you will receive 50% of your current HP back, therefor the more HP you have the better regen as well. I played mainly Lucas so I didn't have to worry that much about Agility but as far as I remember most of the "end-game" items will provide Agility/Will on 2H Swords and Stamina/Agility on the rest of armors. o.O and with Lucas you will have a decent Attack value if you pump some skills in that Talent that converts some of your Will into Attack, but I say again regular attacks are good only for recharging mana and you will do that in the 1H Stance because of the higher attack speed.

[Monokli]

Is there an actual balance that I should work towards? From the look of it stances where will matters momentum is the get-go, while those with attack powers attack tends to outshine most of the other.

 

I see why stamina is incredibly useful. Even for non-defensive support skills (such as anjalis cauterizing aura of immolation) it is a great boon, yet I think you should still strive for more armor.

 

Also what are the formulae for monster/boss damage and how can I determine if in a fictional setup:

my lvl24 gobbot igniter's

-Armor Value of 207 combined with

-block value of 178

will interact with a scaled Jeyne Kassynder's Pillar of Fire.

How much damage will I take and how will I be able to calculate it?

Or is a -40Armor and -100 block a worthy tradeoff for a +78 stamina? Will JK strike me more than the improved health regeneration will heal me back up? Is it a good idea to block? or is that an inferior tactic over the invulnerable dodge?

 

I would greatly appreciate if a dev came over and clarified that. (or post a formulas.gas file)

[Sasha_Je]

I am no dev but I would trade 48 Armor / 100 Block for 78 Stamina anytime :D...after this when you active a healing spell the HP regen would be enormous. Formulas? Go back to Diablo II where formulas actually count when building a character. In Dungeon Siege III it's not worth to waste time on this stuff...

[FireMist]

Indeed...Attack value increases damage dealt by regular attacks, while Will increases damage dealt by skills therefor Will>Attack. The only time I use regular attacks is when I need to recharge some mana, apart from that skills are the real deal. If you like Dungeon Siege III, do a test by creating the same character you have now and focus on Will/Stamina...Will is for damage of course and Stamina is for HP regen. All the HP regen skills notes that over 30 seconds you will receive 50% of your current HP back, therefor the more HP you have the better regen as well. I played mainly Lucas so I didn't have to worry that much about Agility but as far as I remember most of the "end-game" items will provide Agility/Will on 2H Swords and Stamina/Agility on the rest of armors. o.O and with Lucas you will have a decent Attack value if you pump some skills in that Talent that converts some of your Will into Attack, but I say again regular attacks are good only for recharging mana and you will do that in the 1H Stance because of the higher attack speed.

 

And if you are playing as Reinhart or Lucas, who have insane MP regen via Perpetual Moment/ Unbridled Wrath, you will be relying much less on their regular attacks. But remember special abilities do use the Attack DPS score (Attack DPS + Ability DPS) so don

Edited September 26, 2011 by FireMist

[Sasha_Je]

Blah I did ignore Attack...and I had no trouble in beating the game...not even on Hardcore. It may be some formulas on some skills or all skills that the value of Attack is involved but to be honest I didn't notice anything major. I can even say that Will>Doom...actually Doom is one of the most useless stats in the hole game. I made a build on Lucas based on Doom and the damage on critical hits was horrible.

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

Wow, it seems many of you didn't read the help topics in the game (I read every one, and frequently checked back as needed), or at least paid attention to the tutorial. Here's a quote straight from the game: "Additionally, when you use Special Abilities, your Attack DPS is added to your Ability DPS to determine the amount of damage dealt."

 

Now that we have the facts straight, I'll ask again, why do people say Will > Attack? I've seen guides saying to pile up Will at the cost of anything else. Come on now, it's obvious that, after adjustments due to talents, you're gonna want to choose whichever is higher, but favor Attack if it's close. Also want to factor in that you won't be using 100% of your Will 100% of the time, but you will be using 100% of your Attack 100% of the time. So basically, something like 15 Attack vs 18 Will, you're gonna take the Attack. If it's like 15 Attack vs 22 Will, then ya might wanna go with Will.

Edited September 29, 2011 by SilentBob420BMFJ

[Sasha_Je]

It may say in the tutorial that attack dps is added to your skill damage but the rewards are pretty weak. In my first play trough as Lucas I equiped my Lucas mainly with Will and Stamina, of course sometimes I would got an extra attack/agility but that was like a bonus for me. On my second play trough as Lucas I wanted to try someones build based on Doom, so my main stat was Doom and after attack but I was so disappointed by the results. Doing 300-400 dmg/crit vs. Azunai Knights was very, very poor so I swap to my Will gear...after that welcome to the world of 1k+ critical damage. Overall I still say that Will>everything in terms of offensive. Still I would love to do some tests but it's not possible because of the game design.

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

It may say in the tutorial that attack dps is added to your skill damage but the rewards are pretty weak. In my first play trough as Lucas I equiped my Lucas mainly with Will and Stamina, of course sometimes I would got an extra attack/agility but that was like a bonus for me. On my second play trough as Lucas I wanted to try someones build based on Doom, so my main stat was Doom and after attack but I was so disappointed by the results. Doing 300-400 dmg/crit vs. Azunai Knights was very, very poor so I swap to my Will gear...after that welcome to the world of 1k+ critical damage. Overall I still say that Will>everything in terms of offensive. Still I would love to do some tests but it's not possible because of the game design.

 

Rewards? It's not "adds some damage from your Attack", it adds all of it. If you have 100 Will and 100 Attack, your abilities do 200 damage. If you have 150 Attack and 50 Will, your abilities do 200 damage. So why would you want Will, which isn't good for all your attacks, whereas Attack is? If I had a choice, I'd have 200 Attack and 0 Will.

 

And if critical hits do double damage, as they do in every game, well I got a 512 critical with one of my abilities, and I had like 150 Will at the time, so that tells you that Attack is not "weak" in the calculation (which is as simple as 1 + 1).

Edited September 29, 2011 by SilentBob420BMFJ

[Sasha_Je]

Hmm the only thing that I'm sure is that Lucas was build around Will/Stamina. I will do some checking and maybe I will be able to find out something. o.O and by the way 512 critical? I used to do 1k+ !

[Monokli]

Yeah and how do you calculate critical?

 

And normal abilities: ability damage is the damage

Attack skills: Attack dmg+ability dmg = damage, but due to spinning kick being lolterrible, the only use for anjali is hurl spear for loldamages

 

And yes some formulaic answer - while would hurt your anti-diablo feelings - would be incredibly useful for deciding this debate, as the game is built around a rigid set of rules which use formulae to calculate all kinds of stuff, and we can all be sure that damage calculation doesn't take random forum members' opinions in as parameters.

[FireMist]

Hmm the only thing that I'm sure is that Lucas was build around Will/Stamina. I will do some checking and maybe I will be able to find out something. o.O and by the way 512 critical? I used to do 1k+ !

 

Well it depends on the character

[Sasha_Je]

It's impossible to do 500 something damage at an early stage. And about Attack being something this big it's pretty vague. Let's look at the build section and you will see people playing as Reinheart that went glass cannon Will ftw. At end game they had like 400+ Will. The game mechanics are not different from class to class, the same rules apply for everyone, therefor if you play as a Mage and you pump Will like crazy you will be doing an insane amount of damage. From this I conclude that if you play with Lucas/Katarina/Anjali you will receive the same results if you pump Will. Dungeon Siege III is an easy game, when you open your character screen you will that the most highlighted sections are Attack Damage and Ability Damage...as in anything the more the number is at the Ability Damage section the more damage you will deal. It may be some formula Attack+Ability DPS=overall damage but maybe this is in theory because in practice if you give away 40 Attack for 40 Will your damage will greatly increase.

[Doctor.Strange]

Attack contributes to normal attack damage and skill damage (Attack DPS and Ability DPS).

Will contributes to Ability DPS only.

 

Why isn't Attack hands down better than Will?

Will comes in much greater bonuses than Attack because of its narrow purpose.

 

End of story.

 

P.S. Pure-Will Reinhart players are missing out on HALF of this super sorcerer's potential damage output.

Pardon the next statement's arrogance: I will soon be posting the absolute BEST builds of Reinhart Manx and will assert that Reinhard > Katarina + Lucas + Anjali. In DPS, survivability and mobility.

[FireMist]

The major drawback of this game is that we don

[Doctor.Strange]

I'll post more reasoning later. But: criticals always do double damage. Confirmed by the guide book and in the help screen + my experience. Want to talk about it more? Message me on one of my IM's

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

It's impossible to do 500 something damage at an early stage. And about Attack being something this big it's pretty vague. Let's look at the build section and you will see people playing as Reinheart that went glass cannon Will ftw. At end game they had like 400+ Will. The game mechanics are not different from class to class, the same rules apply for everyone, therefor if you play as a Mage and you pump Will like crazy you will be doing an insane amount of damage. From this I conclude that if you play with Lucas/Katarina/Anjali you will receive the same results if you pump Will. Dungeon Siege III is an easy game, when you open your character screen you will that the most highlighted sections are Attack Damage and Ability Damage...as in anything the more the number is at the Ability Damage section the more damage you will deal. It may be some formula Attack+Ability DPS=overall damage but maybe this is in theory because in practice if you give away 40 Attack for 40 Will your damage will greatly increase.

 

That's probably because of a talent. Your talents do factor in to your damage in the DPS section. For instance, Lucas's Will talent maxed out will add 50% Will to your Attack DPS. The question is, will it then in turn add it back to your abilities, since Attack + Will = Ability DPS? Who knows, but it at least adds it to your Attack DPS, thus being worth it to trade equal Attack for Will.

 

Basically, unless you're saying that what the game says in the help topics is not true, then 40 Attack > 40 Will, ignoring talents.

[FireMist]

Well this topic is getting hot! Now here are my thoughts on damage output (that

Edited October 6, 2011 by FireMist

[FireMist]

By the way, as far as I know, there are only 2 exceptions in which Ability DPS is augmented during special abilities (and- for those ones specifically- Will is very, very important)-------

SPOILERS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. Ignite (Sets Anjali

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

So basically, we don't know **** because Obsidian won't tell us. If you're going to make this game even remotely compete with other action RPGs, we must know this. It's not like we're asking for a formula for some non-RPG game that it completely doesn't matter in. The point of RPGs to many of us, is to sit there debating and calculating what to use and spec. I had a friend who would just "try" things in games like Diablo 2 and WOW, but I explained to him that as nerdy as he wants to make me out to be, he's probably in the minority, or he at least should be. It's more than just button mashing with random weapons and skills, and this game proves that, but yet Obsidian completely failed in giving us more info on things.

[Doctor.Strange]

So basically, we don't know **** because Obsidian won't tell us. If you're going to make this game even remotely compete with other action RPGs, we must know this. It's not like we're asking for a formula for some non-RPG game that it completely doesn't matter in. The point of RPGs to many of us, is to sit there debating and calculating what to use and spec. I had a friend who would just "try" things in games like Diablo 2 and WOW, but I explained to him that as nerdy as he wants to make me out to be, he's probably in the minority, or he at least should be. It's more than just button mashing with random weapons and skills, and this game proves that, but yet Obsidian completely failed in giving us more info on things.

 

I fully understand your desire to fully understand the game at a fundamental and intimate level; however, because this game isn't a competitive one or even a true multiplayer RPG it's easy to see why Obsidian didn't prioritize detailing the formal damage calculations.

 

They offered an in game help menu that details many things about the game and also in their guild book that included developer's commentary. For those of you without the guild, its hard to appreciate the effort they put into the game and the character's especially. I believe that if they choose to do so, they can use the current DS3 model to create an awesome game the could rival Diablo 3.

 

Being a perfectionist and enthusiast, I have great respect and appreciation for the developers. Through testing and careful analysis of the available written insights on DS3, I've come to understand the game, the characters and it's damage mechanics well. If you have a question on a certain build please ask. I may or may not produce a guild on it soon.

 

Bottom line: Obsession with numbers and optimum damage output will make you miserable. Enjoy the game don't be afraid to try new things.

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

The major drawback of this game is that we don

Edited October 10, 2011 by SilentBob420BMFJ

[Nathaniel Chapman]

Each point of Will gives more than 1 DPS to your abilities, based on the focus cost of the ability. The idea is that in order to use a special ability, you need to do X attacks that do *not* have will added into their damage, so Will's impact on abilities is increased to compensate. This is a little bit too in depth for our help screen, which was intended to just get you going. Of course truly hardcore players will figure out the detailed damage contributions of each stat