The "Humanitarian mission" in Lybia

[Zoraptor]

It most recently appears that he has ordered soldiers to use rape as a tool of suppressing the Libyan population.

Yeah, and germans impaled Belgian babies on their helmet spikes in WW1, Iraqis turfed babies out of incubators in Kuwait etc etc.

 

There's no evidence for the accusation, and that's pretty much a direct quote of the actual UN official on the ground investigating, Cherif Bassiouni.

 

The main problem with citing Gaddafi being a nasty guy as a reason for intervention is that most of the Transitional Council guys (all except two, iirc) had been senior members of Gaddafi's government. Hardly a good indication that they'll lead a glorious pluralist democracy. Plus they've done some fairly unpleasant things themselves (murdering black africans, for example)

 

The Libyan mission itself is only a support to the Libyan people themselves.

Part of the Libyan people. Whatever the west may say (and fairly obviously thought) he enjoys a great deal of popular support in many areas of Libya, or he wouldn't still be in power.

 

If you attempt to compare this situation in any way to Iraq or Afghanistan you immediately lose a large amount of legitimacy.

Not really. It ain't similar militarily but tribe vs tribe in Libya ain't fundamentally much different from Tajikh/ Hezara/ Persian/ Pashtun in Afghanistan or Kurd/ Shiite/ Sunni in Iraq. Taking sides in such things makes a mess in even the best of circumstances.

[Humodour]

Bye bye Gaddadi.

 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/gad...f-1226093989837

 

My bet is he's gone before the year is out.

[obyknven]

It most recently appears that he has ordered soldiers to use rape as a tool of suppressing the Libyan population.

O'RLY?

http://theintelhub.com/2011/06/23/the-ugly...ato-war-crimes/

[Gromnir]

It most recently appears that he has ordered soldiers to use rape as a tool of suppressing the Libyan population.

O'RLY?

http://theintelhub.com/2011/06/23/the-ugly...ato-war-crimes/

 

you use lindauer as a source? "former cia asset" lindauer?

 

*groan*

 

why can't people let that poor woman alone? she is extreme earnest, but her story is just... sad.

 

is not fun, not fun at all.

[Humodour]

It most recently appears that he has ordered soldiers to use rape as a tool of suppressing the Libyan population.

O'RLY?

 

[Morgoth]

@Grom

 

There is no such a thing as an immiment collapse. Even the Soviet Union's decline took a couple of years.

 

And that's what we're seeing in the US as well. 40 million people on foodstamps is just the start. Slowly but certainly the US will decline into a 2nd world country and becoming, well,

maybe not completely irrelevant, but certainly not the worlds bully anymore. You guys will just have to learn to sit down on a table again and do negotiations to get what you want. Yes, that even means listening to some "snot-nosed Euros", like it or not.

[Gromnir]

@Grom

 

There is no such a thing as an immiment collapse. Even the Soviet Union's decline took a couple of years.

 

And that's what we're seeing in the US as well. 40 million people on foodstamps is just the start. Slowly but certainly the US will decline into a 2nd world country and becoming, well,

maybe not completely irrelevant, but certainly not the worlds bully anymore. You guys will just have to learn to sit down on a table again and do negotiations to get what you want. Yes, that even means listening to some "snot-nosed Euros", like it or not.

 

"Soon the US and UK will be bancrupt, and nobody will shed a tear. Good riddance."

 

"Well, we shall find out sooner than later."

 

am not gonna retread and explore the stoopidity o' such a statements... on multiple levels, but if "sooner" is 20+ years...

 

*shrug*

 

look, we understand that as an austrian you is particular sensitive 'bout being "bullied" by more powerful nations, but the envy/wishful thinking is making you seem more than a little irrational. am understanding your desire to see an imagined Big Bad becomes marginalized, but you shouldn't hold your breath waiting. you have, at the very least, Decades o' US supremacy to endure 'fore you get your wish. and if such a collapse were to occur, it would be felt with cries o' despair even in euro backwaters.

 

oh, and the +40 million food stamp recipients is not the result o' more impoverished Americans, but rather the result o' the repeal o' welfare reform. is extreme cases o' millionares with no monthly income is collecting food stamps.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the "snot-nosed euros" is not ever gonna be the ones the US gotta endure as that were directed at you personal rather than euros in general.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Gromnir

[Humodour]

@Grom

 

There is no such a thing as an immiment collapse. Even the Soviet Union's decline took a couple of years.

 

And that's what we're seeing in the US as well. 40 million people on foodstamps is just the start. Slowly but certainly the US will decline into a 2nd world country and becoming, well,

maybe not completely irrelevant, but certainly not the worlds bully anymore. You guys will just have to learn to sit down on a table again and do negotiations to get what you want. Yes, that even means listening to some "snot-nosed Euros", like it or not.

 

Yeah, to be fair, this is a good point and America's debt situation is pretty ****ing alarming.

[Humodour]

And Gromnir, I'm surprised by your implication that Europe is a backwater given it has a larger population, size, and economy than America. It also seems to have better education systems and access to services. And in many cases higher wealth per capita. Its science and technology output is also huge.

 

The one thing I can think of where America does 'better' is military spending. Europe has only the second largest defence spending in the world.

[Morgoth]

look, we understand that as an austrian you is particular sensitive 'bout being "bullied" by more powerful nations, but the envy/wishful thinking is making you seem more than a little irrational. am understanding your desire to see an imagined Big Bad becomes marginalized, but you shouldn't hold your breath waiting. you have, at the very least, Decades o' US supremacy to endure 'fore you get your wish. and if such a collapse were to occur, it would be felt with cries o' despair even in euro backwaters.

 

oh, and the +40 million food stamp recipients is not the result o' more impoverished Americans, but rather the result o' the repeal o' welfare reform. is extreme cases o' millionares with no monthly income is collecting food stamps.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the "snot-nosed euros" is not ever gonna be the ones the US gotta endure as that were directed at you personal rather than euros in general.

I'm not imagining the US as a "Big Bad". The US has produced some of the smartest heads and personally, the Europeans owe it America to help them out if they ever get in serious trouble, just like America saved Europe from the Nazi menace and helped propping up devastated countries, including Austria. I've a lot respect for the US' (past).

 

But even you must see that something skewed goes on in Washington DC. And Wall Street.

[Gorgon]

How exactly is a Libyan rebel beheading a captured Ghaddafi soldier a NATO war crime, and how does rape help control the populace, seems like a plan that's guaranteed to backfire to me.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Gorgon

[Gromnir]

look, we understand that as an austrian you is particular sensitive 'bout being "bullied" by more powerful nations, but the envy/wishful thinking is making you seem more than a little irrational. am understanding your desire to see an imagined Big Bad becomes marginalized, but you shouldn't hold your breath waiting. you have, at the very least, Decades o' US supremacy to endure 'fore you get your wish. and if such a collapse were to occur, it would be felt with cries o' despair even in euro backwaters.

 

oh, and the +40 million food stamp recipients is not the result o' more impoverished Americans, but rather the result o' the repeal o' welfare reform. is extreme cases o' millionares with no monthly income is collecting food stamps.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the "snot-nosed euros" is not ever gonna be the ones the US gotta endure as that were directed at you personal rather than euros in general.

I'm not imagining the US as a "Big Bad". The US has produced some of the smartest heads and personally, the Europeans owe it America to help them out if they ever get in serious trouble, just like America saved Europe from the Nazi menace and helped propping up devastated countries, including Austria. I've a lot respect for the US' (past).

 

But even you must see that something skewed goes on in Washington DC. And Wall Street.

 

 

something skewed goes on everywhere... if you look hard. and you is doing a real good impersonation o' somebody who sees American evils everywhere... this thread being only the most recent example o' your typical American Paranoia.

 

to krez

 

we were implying that austria is a euro backwater, not the eu as a whole. but trying to lump all european nations together to rate education, economy, tech, etc., is silly, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 13, 2011 by Gromnir

[Morgoth]

Austria is not a backwater country.

[Gromnir]

non- factor v. backwater? now you split hairs. haven't been relevant since the end o' ww1, and am not gonna get into austrian contributions during ww2. am suspecting that the only thing that austria leads europe or world in is antisemitism... though spain and switzerland may have you beat with the jew and muslim discrimination in europe.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 13, 2011 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

Hm, so wonder what happens when Gaddafi's gone. The "rebels" are going to take over ? Heh.

[Morgoth]

non- factor v. backwater? now you split hairs. haven't been relevant since the end o' ww1, and am not gonna get into austrian contributions during ww2. am suspecting that the only thing that austria leads europe or world in is antisemitism... though spain and switzerland may have you beat with the jew and muslim discrimination.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Now you're just silly, Grom. DNA analysis, used widely in FBIs forensic investigations, was developed by the Uni Innsbruck. It's unthinkable not to use it today.

 

Also TSA gropers use Glock pistols, also an Austrian product.

 

Also the Hot Dog is more or less an Austrian invention. Again, it's absence unthinkable in the US culture. But maybe some people over there still prefer ketchup soup, I dunno.

 

Antisemitism? Didn't we just open the biggest Jewish Sports, Education and hostel center in Vienna acouple years back? I think it's even the biggest in Europe.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Morgoth

[Gromnir]

ray white, a us geneticist, is the guy credited with pioneering dna fingerprinting. hot dogs and hand guns? am surprised you not mention freud, or were that too long ago?

 

*snort*

 

you ain't really gonna try and deny the antisemitism stuff is you? not wanna turn this into a austria-bashing thread, but austria's recent history with jews and muslims is... disturbing.

 

but yeah, you got hand guns and hot dogs.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Morgoth]

but austria's recent history with jews and muslims is... disturbing.

Austria was the first country officially acknowledging Islam in 1908 in any European country.

 

Also, last time I checked, we don't have much trouble with Muslims in Austria. 6% of the total population, but quite well integrated apart from some Turkish gangs trying to show who's the boss here. We don't have those ugly things going on like in the UK, Sweden etc.

 

Also what do you mean with disturbing "recent history" with Jews? Unless 1938 is recent to you? Again, Jews are a growing minority here, because they apparently like it here.

 

Unlike in the US, which has a fastly growing Neo-Nazi movement and lot's of Antisemitism (those Jewish Bankers should all go into prison wha wha!).

[Morgoth]

but yeah, you got hand guns and hot dogs.

Well, among lots of other things.

 

I just mentioned those two things (food and guns) because these seem to be the most appreciated and easy understandable things among US citizens.

[Malcador]

I get the sense Morgoth hates Americans for some reason, just a hunch on it.

[Morgoth]

And I get the sense Grommir hates Austrians (or Europeans) for a reason, just a hunch on it.

 

At least I try to debunk his false claims while he keeps digging in deeper and deeper with his unfounded nonsense and bigotry.

[Gromnir]

but austria's recent history with jews and muslims is... disturbing.

Austria was the first country officially acknowledging Islam in 1908 in any European country.

 

Also, last time I checked, we don't have much trouble with Muslims in Austria. 6% of the total population, but quite well integrated apart from some Turkish gangs trying to show who's the boss here. We don't have those ugly things going on like in the UK, Sweden etc.

 

Also what do you mean with disturbing "recent history" with Jews? Unless 1938 is recent to you? Again, Jews are a growing minority here, because they apparently like it here.

 

Unlike in the US, which has a fastly growing Neo-Nazi movement and lot's of Antisemitism (those Jewish Bankers should all go into prison wha wha!).

 

...

 

am not gonna turn this into an austria bashing thread. will simply suggest that anybody with an internet search engine can looks for antisemitism in austria and be struck with a deluge o' info from reputable sources... and am not even gonna touch your neo-nazi comments. our views is based on personal experience in europe as well as from dealing with free speech and freedom o' religion colleagues in europe. if you honestly think austria not gots a strong, lingering antisemitic streak, then we suggest you is as self-deluded 'but your own nation as you is 'bout the Evils o' the US in libya.

 

on the lighter side, Gromnir most often sees springfield armory 1911 variations at shooting competitions and have been told that they is the bestest handgun available for such events. while we personally cannot accurately fire a handgun to save our life, it is kinda amazing to see that updated colt .45's is still the premiere competition sidearm. though admittedly, we loves our karabiner 98k and we always attract a circle o' admirers at the range.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 13, 2011 by Gromnir

[Morgoth]

am not gonna turn this into an austria bashing thread. will simply suggest that anybody with an internet search engine can looks for antisemitism in austria and be struck with a deluge o' info from reputable sources... and am not even gonna touch your neo-nazi comments. our views is based on personal experience in europe as well as from dealing with free speech and freedom o' religion colleagues in europe. if you honestly think austria not gots a strong, lingering antisemitic streak, then we suggest you is as self-deluded 'but your own nation as you is 'bout the Evils o' the US in libya.

And what kind of "reputable sources" would that be? Names?

 

I don't get it. Last time (I think 2 years ago) somebody bit off the finger of a Rabbi. It turned out to be an angry Muslim. Well, **** happens. Best bomb Austria from Orbit for this crime.

 

Maybe some of the older generations in their 80s and 90s (and mostly Viennese) have a rude spout. But that breed is dying out eventually. We're heading into the right direction, while the US is going backwards. You still haven't adressed my remarks on Antisemitishm in the US.

[Gromnir]

am not gonna turn this into an austria bashing thread. will simply suggest that anybody with an internet search engine can looks for antisemitism in austria and be struck with a deluge o' info from reputable sources... and am not even gonna touch your neo-nazi comments. our views is based on personal experience in europe as well as from dealing with free speech and freedom o' religion colleagues in europe. if you honestly think austria not gots a strong, lingering antisemitic streak, then we suggest you is as self-deluded 'but your own nation as you is 'bout the Evils o' the US in libya.

And what kind of "reputable sources" would that be? Names?

 

I don't get it. Last time (I think 2 years ago) somebody bit off the finger of a Rabbi. It turned out to be an angry Muslim. Well, **** happens. Best bomb Austria from Orbit for this crime.

 

Maybe some of the older generations in their 80s and 90s (and mostly Viennese) have a rude spout. But that breed is dying out eventually. We're heading into the right direction, while the US is going backwards. You still haven't adressed my remarks on Antisemitishm in the US.

 

again, do your own search as we not wanna be the cause o' further problems.

 

type in words such as: karl pfeifer, antisemitism, austria, musllim, women, headscarf, jorg haider, etc.

 

as for US antisemitism? sure it exists... is lots o' racism in the United States. your point? heck, you already forget our Pine Ridge post? *snort* is relative. ethnic diversity is much less pronounced in austria... homogeneous. but again, you wanna start a Austria is Not Antisemitic Thread, then be our guest. can see this one spiraling outta control.

 

as an obvious minority living in europe, we were able to see firsthand how peoples were treated compared to in the US. didn't surprise us that in most places were treated with polite animosity. what did surprise us were the kinda endemic sneer folks reserved for US... were a surprise 'cause somehow once folks got to know Gromnir, they seemed unable to shrug off preconceptions. Americans is fat and stoopid. we were neither, and yet they refused to accept that maybe their preconceptions were skewed.

 

you likes to finger-point, but you not deal so well when the finger points back at you, eh?

 

btw, we got no problem with europe... save for the element o' snot-nosed brats who seeming like to find American Evil under every rock. we got the same element here in the US, so don't act as if we is singling out euros or austrians. you is angry that we suggest that austria is a non-factor since ww 1? well, from a geopolitical, cultural and economic pov, austria is... marginal. not makes it a bad place to live for most citizens. not makes you evil.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Morgoth]

type in words such as: karl pfeifer, antisemitism, austria, musllim, women, headscarf, jorg haider, etc.

Lol, that's what you call reputable?

 

type in words such as: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, antisemitism, usa, serial killers, women, drug dealers, George W. Bush, etc.

 

 

you likes to finger-point, but you not deal so well when the finger points back at you, eh?

I deal quite well with all of this. I'm open for any discussion. It's just you who keeps avoiding tough accusations.

 

Don't know about "homogenous" Austria. 20% have immigrant background, 40% Viennese have immigrant background. Your point?

as an obvious minority living in europe, we were able to see firsthand how peoples were treated compared to in the US. didn't surprise us that in most places were treated with polite animosity. what did surprise us were the kinda endemic sneer folks reserved for US... were a surprise 'cause somehow once folks got to know Gromnir, they seemed unable to shrug off preconceptions. Americans is fat and stoopid. we were neither, and yet they refused to accept that maybe their preconceptions were skewed.

So you had some bad experiences in Europe, I see. Ohh, what country(s)?