Critical Cricism...I hate to say it, but I agree

[Schwing]

Don't think 'redundancy' is the word you're looking for!

[Oner]

Need I say more?

Are you sure you want an answer to that?

[Renevent]

"Diablo and Diablo 2 - were great... for their times. Now, they are not."

 

To this day Diablo 2 has tens of thousands of people playing every day...ten years after it first released. I'd wager there's more people playing Diablo 2 on PC than DS3 on all 3 systems combined even so short after DS3's release.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Renevent

[Bakercompany86]

I still have a Hammerdin rockin' D2

 

Yeah Diablo 2 is a great game. Blizzard is loaded with some of the best development talent in the world, and every game they produce is a 10 out of 10. I was also a WoW nerd for 6 years, quitting felt like finally getting over a bad drug addiction.

 

While I do wish DS3 had some sort of endless replay value like D2, Dungeon Siege 3's combat, visuals, and sound smoke Diablo 2. As it should, the game is over a decade old. Diablo's combat revolves around maxing out one ability and spamming said ability, for every class. DS3 is a very well made balance of building focus, using focus powers, and building power orbs. It's also far more challenging than Diablo 2.

 

It's easy to be extremely biased against a game that disappointed you for whatever reason. You should have heard my rants about Brink that coincidentally bought me a temporary ban on the Bethesda forums (okay so I called some kid a turd, sue me).

 

But to be fair, DS3 has a lot over Diablo, and Diablo still maintains a few advantages over DS3.

[Renevent]

Sound and visuals I think is the only thing that DS3 has over D2. DS3 is pretty good at what it does but doesn't compare to other hack and slash games especially where it counts...depth and re-playability. DS3 is a linear corridor adventure hack and slash rpg with a nice story. That's about it though...everything in the game has been streamlined for the console generation. The tight focus doesn't mean it's a bad game, but it doesn't hold a candle to other games in the genre. That's why D2 is played by so many so long after release, and already DS3 is dropping off the game play lists.

 

It's fun and worth a play through, it's no Diablo though.

[deteego]

Sound and visuals I think is the only thing that DS3 has over D2. DS3 is pretty good at what it does but doesn't compare to other hack and slash games especially where it counts...depth and re-playability. DS3 is a linear corridor adventure hack and slash rpg with a nice story. That's about it though...everything in the game has been streamlined for the console generation. The tight focus doesn't mean it's a bad game, but it doesn't hold a candle to other games in the genre. That's why D2 is played by so many so long after release, and already DS3 is dropping off the game play lists.

 

It's fun and worth a play through, it's no Diablo though.

 

 

The only thing that gave D2 depth was the amount of classes and the length of the game. Going back to playing D2 and Titan Quest, I realized how ridiculously repetitive the games are.

 

I think at this point many people play D2 because its D2, it was a fantastic game for its time but its flaws are really starting to show when compared to current games

[Renevent]

Sound and visuals I think is the only thing that DS3 has over D2. DS3 is pretty good at what it does but doesn't compare to other hack and slash games especially where it counts...depth and re-playability. DS3 is a linear corridor adventure hack and slash rpg with a nice story. That's about it though...everything in the game has been streamlined for the console generation. The tight focus doesn't mean it's a bad game, but it doesn't hold a candle to other games in the genre. That's why D2 is played by so many so long after release, and already DS3 is dropping off the game play lists.

 

It's fun and worth a play through, it's no Diablo though.

 

 

The only thing that gave D2 depth was the amount of classes and the length of the game. Going back to playing D2 and Titan Quest, I realized how ridiculously repetitive the games are.

 

I think at this point many people play D2 because its D2, it was a fantastic game for its time but its flaws are really starting to show when compared to current games

 

I play both often, and it's more than just amount of classes and length of the games. It's their item systems (which frankly make DS3's look like child's play) as well. Also, it's not just the number of classes it's how deep and varied the skills are and how all of that interacts with all the other systems. There's also crafting, runes, gem system, and whole host of other systems that all combine to make a much deeper experience that DS3.

 

Then of course we have much more content, new game+, more character levels, higher scaling item system, and persistent online...well...these are just more ambitious and complete game(s).

 

DS3 is very linear and very streamlined...again...doesn't make a bad game but it's really not very ambitious and compared to other hack and slashers leaves a lot to be desired...at least from those who appreciate that sort of thing. If story and dialog wheels mean more to you than the underlying mechanics, of course you may see it differently.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Renevent

[Bakercompany86]

Sound and visuals I think is the only thing that DS3 has over D2. DS3 is pretty good at what it does but doesn't compare to other hack and slash games especially where it counts...depth and re-playability. DS3 is a linear corridor adventure hack and slash rpg with a nice story. That's about it though...everything in the game has been streamlined for the console generation. The tight focus doesn't mean it's a bad game, but it doesn't hold a candle to other games in the genre. That's why D2 is played by so many so long after release, and already DS3 is dropping off the game play lists.

 

It's fun and worth a play through, it's no Diablo though.

 

 

The only thing that gave D2 depth was the amount of classes and the length of the game. Going back to playing D2 and Titan Quest, I realized how ridiculously repetitive the games are.

 

I think at this point many people play D2 because its D2, it was a fantastic game for its time but its flaws are really starting to show when compared to current games

 

 

Two words, Baal Runs. That is the extent of Diablo 2's replay value. Running Baal over and over and over and over until you're sick. While its not the worst way to extend a game, i'd much rather have an arena type mode with at least some different structure than running through a story portion over and over again.

 

DS3 was streamlined for consoles in the graphics and control department, not story and layout. This could have easily been an open world with random dungeons to be replayed etc etc. Obsidian just didn't opt for that route. It's not like they had to dumb down the story or area design for consoles. The only thing that is changed for consoles is the graphical quality as they can't produce what a high end PC can.

 

But lets say Obsidian released a DLC tomorrow. Lets say this DLC had new characters, items, maybe a few new dungeons (random or not), and said Arena Mode. With a run of the mill dlc like this, DS3 would easily be my clear choice for repeated RPG.

 

As i've said before, Last Stand from Dawn of War II would be a beautiful fit for this game. I'd play it forever.

 

And again I can't stress how much better the combat is in DS3 than Diablo 2. While Diablo 2 has vastly more abilities and moves, you end up using 2-3. While I use all 9 of Reinhart's.

 

Not to mention the much better system of healing in this game (combined with dodging and blocking) compared to Diablo's get hit many times, chug potions, repeat. I like DS3's mechanics here far better.

[MonkeyLungs]

"Diablo and Diablo 2 - were great... for their times. Now, they are not."

 

To this day Diablo 2 has tens of thousands of people playing every day...ten years after it first released. I'd wager there's more people playing Diablo 2 on PC than DS3 on all 3 systems combined even so short after DS3's release.

 

Agree on this one. Also it got a patch 10 years into its life cycle. Dedicated support.

 

 

Sound and visuals I think is the only thing that DS3 has over D2. DS3 is pretty good at what it does but doesn't compare to other hack and slash games especially where it counts...depth and re-playability. DS3 is a linear corridor adventure hack and slash rpg with a nice story. That's about it though...everything in the game has been streamlined for the console generation. The tight focus doesn't mean it's a bad game, but it doesn't hold a candle to other games in the genre. That's why D2 is played by so many so long after release, and already DS3 is dropping off the game play lists.

 

It's fun and worth a play through, it's no Diablo though.

 

 

The only thing that gave D2 depth was the amount of classes and the length of the game. Going back to playing D2 and Titan Quest, I realized how ridiculously repetitive the games are.

 

I think at this point many people play D2 because its D2, it was a fantastic game for its time but its flaws are really starting to show when compared to current games

 

I think DS3 on its own merits is fun single player quick arpg fix with no aspirations for being a memorable title. It doesn't stack up very well to older games at all in my opinion because it leaves out so many features I consider essential to this genre. I have PSP games with much richer feature lists and way more modes of play including online MP where nobody shares a screen and you get persistent character saves ... on PSP. The gimped MP on Xbox 360 is a massive offender in my book they have great examples to learn from (Borderlands, RDR -for the awesome way rockstar do dynamic hosting between xboxes for public matches so basically the rooms never shut down until the last person leaves, its brilliant- , Sacred 2 the action RPG KING on 360). The shared online camera is a technical deficiency that destroys the MP for me. It takes all of the fun out of the experience. It is oly tolerable in local co-op because you are right there with the person and that just makes it inherently more fun (presumably you like the person you couch co-op with though).

[Bakercompany86]

Agree on this one. Also it got a patch 10 years into its life cycle. Dedicated support.

 

 

 

I think DS3 on its own merits is fun single player quick arpg fix with no aspirations for being a memorable title. It doesn't stack up very well to older games at all in my opinion because it leaves out so many features I consider essential to this genre. I have PSP games with much richer feature lists and way more modes of play including online MP where nobody shares a screen and you get persistent character saves ... on PSP. The gimped MP on Xbox 360 is a massive offender in my book they have great examples to learn from (Borderlands, RDR -for the awesome way rockstar do dynamic hosting between xboxes for public matches so basically the rooms never shut down until the last person leaves, its brilliant- , Sacred 2 the action RPG KING on 360). The shared online camera is a technical deficiency that destroys the MP for me. It takes all of the fun out of the experience. It is oly tolerable in local co-op because you are right there with the person and that just makes it inherently more fun (presumably you like the person you couch co-op with though).

 

Totally agreed on your first point. Talk about good customer service. This is why Blizzard has my eternal support towards whatever project they want to do.

 

 

As far as your second point(s), I do agree DS3 has some missing features that I did expect it to have. It's still a great game in my opinion, but I would have liked to have seen a bit more focus on the MP aspect of it. Zero complaints about the SP playthrough minus unequal loot distribution. Definitely could have used a tad more focus on MP issues.

 

Having said that, the things they missed on aren't so horrible that I won't enjoy my purchase of this game. And with a simple TU and a DLC this game could easily stand up against the rest of the genre. It has a lot going for it that others don't (like interesting combat).

 

I can personally say that the combat in Diablo 2 was never what kept me into it. After the first playthrough where the story actually mattered, it was only about the loot from that point on.

 

Fix the camera, adjust the loot, add a few things and this game will go from great to flawless for me.

[Renevent]

"And with a simple TU and a DLC this game could easily stand up against the rest of the genre"

 

I dunno...I do think they could fix up the game to compete against the genre, but it wouldn't be simple DLC. It would have to be pretty damn substantial imo.

 

For DS3 to really shine against other games in the genre DLC would have to look similar to:

 

-Revamped item system with much more variety in stats, set items, more uniques, ect

-Some kind of crafting/socket system/runes/ect

-New game+

-Higher levels with items, classes, ect that scale upwards

-Open/persistent mulitplayer

-New map design with more open and organic areas

-Deeper class design with more substantial choices

-More characters in the party even in SP

 

Doesn't have to have every single one of these things, but I do think there's quite a few areas DS3 is particularly weak in. I do think DS3's combat is pretty damn fun, if the game had the legs to really take stride the game would be fantastic. Right now I consider it just goo.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Renevent

[MonkeyLungs]

I'm really quite intrigued by how the more action style combat (even though it is, like, totally weak as an action game) is enough for some fans to overlook all the mising features. **There is nothing wrong with that BTW I just don't agree.

 

For me though, DS3 is just missing way way too many things to make it anything other than OK.

 

EDIT:

(------------RUMBLE SUPPORT FOR XBOX 360----------------> SUCKS!

 

This takes away from the combat big time for me.

Edited June 29, 2011 by MonkeyLungs

[Bakercompany86]

I'm really quite intrigued by how the more action style combat (even though it is, like, totally weak as an action game) is enough for some fans to overlook all the missing features. **There is nothing wrong with that BTW I just don't agree.

 

For me though, DS3 is just missing way way too many things to make it anything other than OK.

 

EDIT:

(------------RUMBLE SUPPORT FOR XBOX 360----------------> SUCKS!

 

This takes away from the combat big time for me.

 

 

I turn off rumble in just about every game I play, especially shooters (if you want to hit anything). That's a personal preference.

 

I didn't even notice though, is there rumble in DS3? I never pay attention to it even when its turned on, just something I overlook I guess.

 

Your opinion is valid though, it's all things for Obsidian to take note of for future games. Without constructive criticism dev's would have little to go on for future games. This is why its important for haters and likers alike to post about what they love/hate about DS3. It may even shape the future DLC's for this game to a point where you might not dislike it so much

[Pidesco]

@Monkeylungs: Can you explain why you find the combat in DS3 weak?

 

Also, regarding rumble, I think it's probably the worst successful gimmick in the history of video games. It doesn't achieve anything other than drawing attention to the interface between the player and the game.

[Renevent]

I'd say rumble doesn't draw attention to the controller, rather it provides tactile feedback from the game. It's not a feature I really care about that much, but it's definitely a nice touch when done correctly. Kinda like Force Feedback in a racing game with a good wheel.

[Bakercompany86]

I don't love rumble but I don't hate it either. Guess its a feature I could go either way about. I hate the rattling noise my controller makes during intense rumble sections. Thankfully I usually play with turtle beaches on so I don't hear it.

 

But again, I usually disable it anyway.

 

Combat is one of the strongest points in DS3 in my personal opinion. What an excellent balance of ebb and flow, defense and offense.

 

Dungeon Siege III's combat gets a 10 out of 10 from Bakercompany.

[Pidesco]

I'd say rumble doesn't draw attention to the controller, rather it provides tactile feedback from the game. It's not a feature I really care about that much, but it's definitely a nice touch when done correctly. Kinda like Force Feedback in a racing game with a good wheel.

 

 

Force feedback in a racing more or less emulates the feel of driving over rough terrain. Rumble simulates fighting your enemies with a cell phone. Or with a vibrator.

[Bakercompany86]

I'd say rumble doesn't draw attention to the controller, rather it provides tactile feedback from the game. It's not a feature I really care about that much, but it's definitely a nice touch when done correctly. Kinda like Force Feedback in a racing game with a good wheel.

 

 

Force feedback in a racing more or less emulates the feel of driving over rough terrain. Rumble simulates fighting your enemies with a cell phone. Or with a vibrator.

 

Ha, now that's funny.

[Renevent]

Depending on the wheel/game force feedback actually can simulate much more than rough terrain. Can actually simulate resistance, pull, slip, and other forces. If anyone has GTR2 that's an excellent example of FF in a racing game. Kinda offtopic though.

 

Anyways you can look it that way if you want...I tend to see it more like if you hit something, you should feel it. Rumble gives you a little taste of that. Rumble can also be informative in games...like getting low on health in some games can make the controller rumble slightly. So in a way, it becomes part of the gameplay.

 

Again, I'm not a huge fan of rumble but it's not quite as useless/unfun as you say.

[Bakercompany86]

"And with a simple TU and a DLC this game could easily stand up against the rest of the genre"

 

I dunno...I do think they could fix up the game to compete against the genre, but it wouldn't be simple DLC. It would have to be pretty damn substantial imo.

 

For DS3 to really shine against other games in the genre DLC would have to look similar to:

 

-Revamped item system with much more variety in stats, set items, more uniques, ect

-Some kind of crafting/socket system/runes/ect

-New game+

-Higher levels with items, classes, ect that scale upwards

-Open/persistent mulitplayer

-New map design with more open and organic areas

-Deeper class design with more substantial choices

-More characters in the party even in SP

 

Doesn't have to have every single one of these things, but I do think there's quite a few areas DS3 is particularly weak in. I do think DS3's combat is pretty damn fun, if the game had the legs to really take stride the game would be fantastic. Right now I consider it just goo.

 

What other stats does this game need?

 

Agility

Attack

Stamina

Will

Block

Chaos effects

 

What's missing? The stat system for this game is fine and doesn't need changing.

 

Crafting in most games is tedious and boring, this is a personal preference and I prefer it be left out of DS3.

 

I agree with New Game+, or some sort of repeatable game mode.

 

As far as the class design and levels I think its also perfect for this game. They can add on that as needed to accommodate DLC and future expansions.

 

That list just says you should probably just be playing World of Warcraft.

[Renevent]

"And with a simple TU and a DLC this game could easily stand up against the rest of the genre"

 

I dunno...I do think they could fix up the game to compete against the genre, but it wouldn't be simple DLC. It would have to be pretty damn substantial imo.

 

For DS3 to really shine against other games in the genre DLC would have to look similar to:

 

-Revamped item system with much more variety in stats, set items, more uniques, ect

-Some kind of crafting/socket system/runes/ect

-New game+

-Higher levels with items, classes, ect that scale upwards

-Open/persistent mulitplayer

-New map design with more open and organic areas

-Deeper class design with more substantial choices

-More characters in the party even in SP

 

Doesn't have to have every single one of these things, but I do think there's quite a few areas DS3 is particularly weak in. I do think DS3's combat is pretty damn fun, if the game had the legs to really take stride the game would be fantastic. Right now I consider it just goo.

 

What other stats does this game need?

 

Agility

Attack

Stamina

Will

Block

Chaos effects

 

What's missing? The stat system for this game is fine and doesn't need changing.

 

Crafting in most games is tedious and boring, this is a personal preference and I prefer it be left out of DS3.

 

I agree with New Game+, or some sort of repeatable game mode.

 

As far as the class design and levels I think its also perfect for this game. They can add on that as needed to accommodate DLC and future expansions.

 

That list just says you should probably just be playing World of Warcraft.

 

Well if you like your porridge that's all that matter I guess. Anyways what's missing? Have you actually ever played the games you referenced earlier?

 

I do see a pattern with Obsidian defenders though...first pretend there's no difference, and when you realize there is pretend all that other (awesome) stuff doesn't matter and DS3 doesn't need it.

 

*edit*

 

No, I don't need to play WoW...there's plenty of PC arpg's with robust mechanics (past, present, and upcoming).

Edited June 29, 2011 by Renevent

[MonkeyLungs]

@Monkeylungs: Can you explain why you find the combat in DS3 weak?

 

Also, regarding rumble, I think it's probably the worst successful gimmick in the history of video games. It doesn't achieve anything other than drawing attention to the interface between the player and the game.

 

I said it is, like, totally weak as an action game. Its "Super Advanced" for an ARPG though, according to many folks from Obsidian forums. I compare 3rd person action games to Ninja Gaiden (original reboot for Xbox 1). That has an in depth combat system and um really nice animations which is very important if you want to make action combat. I find DS3 combat animations to merely passable, Anjali's spear attacks are pretty lame though and look really strange. Lack of controller feedback shows lazy design ... there are also tricks to making controller feedback more a fun part of gameplay and less of annoying random vibration. You can tell when a developer knows what they are doing in this regard.

 

Minimal amounts of alternate builds and hence alternate skill sets to use in fights weakens combat as well because there are less options available to me. Characters with predetermined weapon choices is less fun than being able to choose whatever weapon you want. Your special abilities that are weapon based should work with any weapon, like Sacred 2 (you can even fight unarmed in Sacred 2 and your special abilities that are weapon based work then as well). Animations for the special abilities should be different for each weapon type.

 

DS3 feels too streamlined.

[ShadowScythe]

Well if you like your porridge that's all that matter I guess. Anyways what's missing? Have you actually ever played the games you referenced earlier?

 

I do see a pattern with Obsidian defenders though...first pretend there's no difference, and when you realize there is pretend all that other (awesome) stuff doesn't matter and DS3 doesn't need it.

 

*edit*

 

No, I don't need to play WoW...there's plenty of PC arpg's with robust mechanics (past, present, and upcoming).

 

Bakercompany does have a point though. In a combat system like this that isn't going to become party based what other stats do you want? All of the stats that Bakercompany brought up are very useful and go a fair way towards diversifying characters (i.e. attack vs will do you want stronger basic attacks or stronger skill based attacks. Will you sacrifice retribution for momentum. Is it more important to gain focus quicker with momentum or is your build more focused around getting crits with agility). Instead of strawmanning people defending the game as "Obsidian defenders" or whatever can you actually explain what additional stats you think the game needs.

 

I agree with you on deeper character building though, it had some basic elements of it- but it could use more of this variation. I guess, at least the game doesn't suffer too much from jack of all trades syndrome- sure you can unlock all abilities but they won't be very good unless you actually build on them.

 

Btw bakercompany you forgot Momentum, Warding and Retribution in your stat list.

[Renevent]

Well if you like your porridge that's all that matter I guess. Anyways what's missing? Have you actually ever played the games you referenced earlier?

 

I do see a pattern with Obsidian defenders though...first pretend there's no difference, and when you realize there is pretend all that other (awesome) stuff doesn't matter and DS3 doesn't need it.

 

*edit*

 

No, I don't need to play WoW...there's plenty of PC arpg's with robust mechanics (past, present, and upcoming).

 

Bakercompany does have a point though. In a combat system like this that isn't going to become party based what other stats do you want? All of the stats that Bakercompany brought up are very useful and go a fair way towards diversifying characters (i.e. attack vs will do you want stronger basic attacks or stronger skill based attacks. Will you sacrifice retribution for momentum. Is it more important to gain focus quicker with momentum or is your build more focused around getting crits with agility). Instead of strawmanning people defending the game as "Obsidian defenders" or whatever can you actually explain what additional stats you think the game needs.

 

I agree with you on deeper character building though, it had some basic elements of it- but it could use more of this variation. I guess, at least the game doesn't suffer too much from jack of all trades syndrome- sure you can unlock all abilities but they won't be very good unless you actually build on them.

 

Btw bakercompany you forgot Momentum, Warding and Retribution in your stat list.

 

Go look up all the stuff available in TQ/D2/ect...there's a lot more. It's not just the quantity though, it's how the item system really integrates with the class system and opens up a really substantial amount of unique builds from it. There's other things too like every character being tied to a specific weapon...I'm sorry but DS3 has a very restrictive and shallow item system. There's just no other way to say it...it's still fun finding items and all, but it's just a little disappointing that's all.

[Bakercompany86]

Btw bakercompany you forgot Momentum, Warding and Retribution in your stat list.

 

 

Mah bad

 

I really think the stats of this game are fine, and they all make sense. And unless you're a brand new person to the genre, you have some understanding of what they do.

 

Now loot diversity, I wouldn't have minded more of. Honestly in this particular game loot took a backseat to the combat, and as long as my gear was decent enough to not get me instantly slaughtered I was happy conducting my ballet of battle.

 

I'm about 50/50 on the item looks issue. On one hand I like each piece of gear to have its own unique look. This however can become ugly, such as in the case of World of Warcraft. Several times in my many characters lives they had great stats, but the gear mismatched just looked silly. Function before form however...

 

At the end of my game, Reinhart looked amazing and so did Anjali in her archon armor. So at least there is a difference in tiers of armor, i'm kind of glad they made them match within a tier set regardless of stats/names simply for looks. By the end your characters are looking pretty sweet, and the charater detail in this game is fantastic.

 

Diablo 2 had the "you have on a plate-ish armor, so now you're in full plate mail!" And I liked it just fine, even though my pally looks silly with his plate armor and a leather cap on.

 

The sets in WoW are gorgeous though, I loved Death Knight tier 10.

 

All in all this boils down to personal preference though, not a flaw with the game necessarily.

 

EDIT: I'm all for them going balls to the wall on DLC stuff though. New armor, stats, auras on armor, on hit effects, whatever they want i'm cool with. They seem to have a really solid design team at Obsidian. You could just throw in some random names and table based random stats and easily add hundreds of items to the game.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Bakercompany86