Schools of the future?

[Rosbjerg]

There's a school here in Denmark called "

l" - and they are teaching kids in a very different way than schools have done since the invention of said institution.

 

The idea is basically that kids want to learn, they are designed to learn - and a pre-school should be a place to foster and develop this desire. It should also be a place that encourages democracy, respect, diversity and curiosity.

 

From Sudbury Valley School (an American version that the Danish school was inspired by - here's a

by them)

 

Sudbury Valley School is a place where people decide for themselves how to spend their days. Here, students of all ages determine what they will do, as well as when, how, and where they will do it. This freedom is at the heart of the school; it belongs to the students as their right, not to be violated.

 

The fundamental premises of the school are simple: that all people are curious by nature; that the most efficient, long-lasting, and profound learning takes place when started and pursued by the learner; that all people are creative if they are allowed to develop their unique talents; that age-mixing among students promotes growth in all members of the group; and that freedom is essential to the development of personal responsibility.

 

In practice this means that students initiate all their own activities and create their own environments. The physical plant, the staff, and the equipment are there for the students to use as the need arises.

 

The school provides a setting in which students are independent, are trusted, and are treated as responsible people; and a community in which students are exposed to the complexities of life in the framework of a participatory democracy.

 

 

Some of the theories behind it are pretty nicely explained by

, a world-renowed expert on creativity, learning and education (he was knighted because of his contributions to the field)..

 

 

 

 

I have to say, this is seems so profoundly self-evident that I'm pretty appealed that it's not more widespread - but maybe that's just me? Don't you guys agree this should be the school of our time.. or?

[Calax]

The only issue with this is that once the student leaves that school environment they'll be ill equipped to work in the current system where you have to regurgitate stuff.

[Rosbjerg]

The only issue with this is that once the student leaves that school environment they'll be ill equipped to work in the current system where you have to regurgitate stuff.

 

Do we in fact really need such systems at all?

[pmp10]

Don't you guys agree this should be the school of our time.. or?

Or not.

I know that if I had any say in what to study as a child my math skills would end at multiplication.

[Hurlshort]

We have these all over the place in the US. They work fine on a small scale, like 1 in every 30 schools, because then you mostly only have kids and parents that respond well to that educational model attending them by choice. There is also a certain age where you have to ditch all this and get to work, typically this is around High School, because a parent willing to shell out for this type of education also expects their kid to go to college, and you aren't getting into an Ivy League school with an academic record of happy faces and rainbows.

[Calax]

The only issue with this is that once the student leaves that school environment they'll be ill equipped to work in the current system where you have to regurgitate stuff.

 

Do we in fact really need such systems at all?

To a degree, yes. I mean it's great on a small scale when the kids learn that way, but when you have to consider just how many kids you're talking about in this situation you're gonna need to broaden your learning necessities.

[Hurlshort]

Oh yeah, I taught at one of these schools my first two years in education. I actually had sections on my formal review for Happy Thinking and Friends of the Earth curriculum. Don't get me wrong, it was a great experience, it motivated me to get my teaching credential. But there was some pretty silly stuff going on there.

[Oblarg]

So, it's a glorified day care?

 

Honestly, structured curricula exist for a reason.

[Rosbjerg]

To a degree, yes. I mean it's great on a small scale when the kids learn that way, but when you have to consider just how many kids you're talking about in this situation you're gonna need to broaden your learning necessities.

 

It's important to remember that this is only for elementary school and that this is not meant for the higher educations.. I don't think we are quite ready for this in high school/college or universities yet.

 

Oh yeah, I taught at one of these schools my first two years in education. I actually had sections on my formal review for Happy Thinking and Friends of the Earth curriculum. Don't get me wrong, it was a great experience, it motivated me to get my teaching credential. But there was some pretty silly stuff going on there.

 

The Danish variety isn't that hippie.. I've met a few of the students (a 6 year old and a 14 year old) and they were both years ahead of kids their age - so articulate, critical thinking and literally brimming with excitement about almost all subjects. I could really feel that knowledge was something that was important and very alive for them. I was downright scared at their ability for lateral thinking - it was beyond anything I had seen in normal public schools..

 

And these kids weren't from super homes - their parents were normal 9-5 workers. The 14 year old was even from a single parent home, where the mother had to work 2 jobs.. so it's not like they have more resources at home.

 

So, it's a glorified day care?

 

Honestly, structured curricula exist for a reason.

 

It exists for a reason in high school, college and university - but why in elementary school? Kids are amazing at learning when we give them the freedom to do it .. I think it's quite interesting that a kid has no problems learning 5 languages if they are spoken in their home, but have trouble learning 2 languages that are taught at school.

[Walsingham]

Strangely enough I was discussing this theme last night with some teachers and parents.

 

Kids may be designed to learn, but they are also designed to be total horros to one another. Put enough together and you get social pressures and bullying etc which totally outweigh any influence from the teachers. The only counter to this is either general discipline, or massive surveillance.

 

Massive surveillance is unhealthy, IMO, because it teaches kids to run to teacher every time anything goes awry. This leaves discipline, and funnily enough 'hard' subjects like maths and physics can ONLY be taought by disciplined endeavour. There's no fun way to force a kid through the thousand or so iterations of equations necessary until they begin to make intuitive sense.

 

I know that makes me sound a bit Benito Mussolini, but I beg you to attack the substance of my logic, not the tone.

[Rosbjerg]

Strangely enough I was discussing this theme last night with some teachers and parents.

 

[1]Kids may be designed to learn, but they are also designed to be total horros to one another. Put enough together and you get social pressures and bullying etc which totally outweigh any influence from the teachers. [2]The only counter to this is either general discipline, or massive surveillance.

 

Massive surveillance is unhealthy, IMO, because it teaches kids to run to teacher every time anything goes awry. [3]This leaves discipline, and [4]funnily enough 'hard' subjects like maths and physics can ONLY be taought by disciplined endeavour. [5]There's no fun way to force a kid through the thousand or so iterations of equations necessary until they begin to make intuitive sense.

 

I know that makes me sound a bit Benito Mussolini, but I beg you to attack the substance of my logic, not the tone.

 

You are presenting a lot of opinion as fact - although none of them are backed up by any evidence..

 

[1] - is this an argument against this kind of school? Because if it is I see you haven't read or seen any of the information I presented.

 

[2] - Based on what? There are a lot of approached to stop bullying. Something Denmark has researched into on a number of occasions. One of the most effective is actually a "children's court" where the bully is tried by peers. Incidentally this is also what the Democratic school does. (for the American approach you can see this website)

 

[3] - only by your logic. Do some basic research and you will see this to be very false.

 

[4] - again, based on what? I saw the kids excel at Math far beyond their age-group. Try reading the theories of Lev Vygotsky regarding social development and learning. What theories are you referring to?

 

[5] - apparently there is. I agree however that, in the current system, there isn't a fun way.

[Walsingham]

*snipped, but referenced*

 

If I wanted to present it as fact I would have referenced it. But since this is a Sunday I am content - as I thought we usually were - to work largely with opinion. But I can see I've hit your buttons by calling you on this fantasy approach, so let's to it!

 

1. I have read the material you presented. Since in general I find your topics interesting.

 

2. I didn't see the bit about children's courts. But how is such a court to be enforced if not by a teacher? I'm not being defeatist here, either, as I've been sponsor of a UK anti-bullying charity for many years. I just happen to feel that directed aid and assistance case by case is the answer, not risky social experimentation. Oh, and I've also worked as a teacher in a high school, if that carries any weight.

 

3. Since you claim to have already done the research perhaps you would enlighten me by pointing out what the alternatives are, and or why my logic is so clearly faulty.

 

4. Don't patronise me by talking about Lev Vygotsky. You've obviously forgotten that I'm a formally qualified psychologist. And unfortunately for you, Vygostky is probably my favourite pre-war Russian after Tukhachevskii. I've been applying his principles in my work ever since reading them. What precisely are you waffling about him for in this context?

 

5. You suggest there's something wrong with society, but I put it to you that it's far more likely to be something 'wrong' with the human brain. Many of the formal sciences, those with multifold rules, and particularly those involving the storage and manipulation of large data arrays - such as chess - show an enormously strong correlation between practice/repetition and functional expertise. I don't have access to a library on a Sunday, so I'll have to go to a rather out of date edition of 'Cognitive Psychology' by MW Eysenck. Look in the index under expert.

 

~~

 

It is all very well and laudable to be in favour of fun. But if I am correct and fun can only go so far, then one may be in fact perpetrating a form of serious neglect on children by failing to discipline them. And that's before one considers the ghastly prospect of releasing kids who think they can do whatever they like when they like into a collaborative workspace.

 

This kind of gibberish is mere mood music for the self-indulgent:

 

Now that Western culture, at least in the United States, has progressed well beyond the industrial era, it has become clearer and clearer to leaders and laypersons alike that the only kind of person who will be truly effective in the socio-economic environment which is rapidly overtaking us is just the kind of person who knows how to play, and play well.

 

It's all very well for creative thought leaders, but you can't man an entire economy with arseholes mucking about.

[Rosbjerg]

so let's to it!

indeed..

 

Thanks though, it seemed as if you were simply brushing this off without much thought - which I'm glad was not the case at all.. I'll return with a response tomorrow evening, when I have a little more time to compile my arguments.

[Calax]

To a degree, yes. I mean it's great on a small scale when the kids learn that way, but when you have to consider just how many kids you're talking about in this situation you're gonna need to broaden your learning necessities.

 

It's important to remember that this is only for elementary school and that this is not meant for the higher educations.. I don't think we are quite ready for this in high school/college or universities yet.

My point was that the kids would be ill-equipped once they got out of the school to move up the educational ladder.

[Orogun01]

This system is erroneous to a fault, never mind the small scale the whole social aspect and lack of curriculum will seriously cripple their emotional growth. Educationally it works because it's a hands on approach to subjects, instead of theory in a blackboard children learn practical applications. Problems is the whole democratic curriculum, even if the kid knew what he wanted at the moment and was properly motivated to learn (not something that all children are) his mind may change after growing old or he may find that he spent his childhood learning nonsense and now has no basics to fall back on.

Aside from that a cloistered life like that won't help him operate in a social environment, while many would agree that it gives the child values and respect for the rules it does nothing for when he moves to the outside world. We operate in basic human drives, is the Id that drives us forwards towards achieving while the Superego reins us setting the boundaries of what's is acceptable. I doubt that there will be much of an Id in kids whose whole lives have been dedicated towards learning.

[Monte Carlo]

The Spartans had the right idea.

[Hurlshort]

I can pick out the students that attended this type of school within the first week. While they often excel at creative and critical thinking skills, they lack the ability to follow directions, struggle with groupwork, and don't pick up on social queues very well.

 

Not that I'm complaining, it is nice to have a few students capable of critical thought in my class, but when I have 38 students it is also nice to have kids that know how to raise their hand when they have a question.

[Oblarg]

To a degree, yes. I mean it's great on a small scale when the kids learn that way, but when you have to consider just how many kids you're talking about in this situation you're gonna need to broaden your learning necessities.

 

It's important to remember that this is only for elementary school and that this is not meant for the higher educations.. I don't think we are quite ready for this in high school/college or universities yet.

 

Oh yeah, I taught at one of these schools my first two years in education. I actually had sections on my formal review for Happy Thinking and Friends of the Earth curriculum. Don't get me wrong, it was a great experience, it motivated me to get my teaching credential. But there was some pretty silly stuff going on there.

 

The Danish variety isn't that hippie.. I've met a few of the students (a 6 year old and a 14 year old) and they were both years ahead of kids their age - so articulate, critical thinking and literally brimming with excitement about almost all subjects. I could really feel that knowledge was something that was important and very alive for them. I was downright scared at their ability for lateral thinking - it was beyond anything I had seen in normal public schools..

 

And these kids weren't from super homes - their parents were normal 9-5 workers. The 14 year old was even from a single parent home, where the mother had to work 2 jobs.. so it's not like they have more resources at home.

 

So, it's a glorified day care?

 

Honestly, structured curricula exist for a reason.

 

It exists for a reason in high school, college and university - but why in elementary school? Kids are amazing at learning when we give them the freedom to do it .. I think it's quite interesting that a kid has no problems learning 5 languages if they are spoken in their home, but have trouble learning 2 languages that are taught at school.

 

Here's the thing (and I realize this is anecdotal, but it's also true):

 

I had a childhood friend who went to a "school" that functioned on this very principle. I distinctly remember some time around third or fourth grade, when it really became apparent that he simply didn't grow up at the rate of people going to public school - He couldn't consistently read or write (something any decent school system teaches in first grade), and socially he hadn't really developed nearly as much as any of my other friends. He stood out, and it was awkward - it was easy to tell, even at that age.

 

I have no faith in this sort of system. I consider myself to be a pretty smart guy, but if I had the choice back when I was a kid I certainly would have rather wasted my time on fun and games than learning the necessary skills needed to learn more difficult concepts later in life. The fact is, as much as people running these schools don't want to admit it, kids don't know what's best for them in the long run.

[Walsingham]

The Spartans had the right idea.

 

I assume you are referring to the enforced pederasty?

[Orogun01]

The Spartans had the right idea.

 

I assume you are referring to the enforced pederasty?

Actually it was a chaste relationship, attractions was considered as incest and abominable.

But maybe Monte was referring to the military school to which all boys were sent to at age 7, why did pederasty came to your head first?

Edited March 15, 2011 by Orogun01

[Walsingham]

Because, my dear cretin, that's what they did.

[pmp10]

Because, my dear cretin, that's what they did.

You know - linking to store entry of an audio book dealing with Greek-Persian wars dose not make a strong case for prevalence of Spartan pederasty.

[Walsingham]

Because, my dear cretin, that's what they did.

You know - linking to store entry of an audio book dealing with Greek-Persian wars dose not make a strong case for prevalence of Spartan pederasty.

 

 

Maybe so, but leaving aside friends who studied classics at Cambridge - who I can't very well reference - that's where I heard it first.

[WDeranged]

That school sounds a bit reactionary, I've heard some of Ken Robinson's talks before and he sounds like a decent chap though, I'm not qualified to propose a solution but it seems to me we need a balance, all I know is that I was bored as hell for my entire "structured" school life and I learnt more when I left.