Catholic marchers turn on Glastonbury pagans

[Malcador]

In any event, it's just a custody screwup rather than "Athiest persecution activate!"

[Hurlshort]

I'm glad my daughter can now yell at me when I forget to do her buckles.

[Calax]

I'm glad my daughter can now yell at me when I forget to do her buckles.

And when you don't feed her

[Walsingham]

Agreed, the world would be better off with more spirituality and less religion.

Hm, doubt it, but sure.

Really? And how many atrocities, ignorance, hate, wars and deaths would have been avoided if spirituality was the main belief and not organized religion? Our world history would be a LOT more peaceful.

The core of religious violence is non-religious intolerance given an excuse. Quarrels over land, politics, race, or culture.

 

Much as would exist under non-dogmatic beliefs systems.

 

+19

[Hurlshort]

But organized religion is teh bad! All those soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and community outreach programs are tools of the devil.

[Tale]

But organized religion is teh bad! All those soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and community outreach programs are tools of the devil.

That's because those things are communist.

[TheHarlequin]

Agreed, the world would be better off with more spirituality and less religion.

Hm, doubt it, but sure.

Really? And how many atrocities, ignorance, hate, wars and deaths would have been avoided if spirituality was the main belief and not organized religion? Our world history would be a LOT more peaceful.

The core of religious violence is non-religious intolerance given an excuse. Quarrels over land, politics, race, or culture.

 

Much as would exist under non-dogmatic beliefs systems.

 

True to a degree. However the cross or other symbol is always given as the excuse. 'We need to cleanse the earth of the non-believers!' and so on. Now are there sometimes other motivations? Of course. As you said land, power, etc all come into play as well. However just as many examples of religion being a secondary reason can be found in history books as well as the primary.

 

Then you got the religious extremists. Blowing themselves up on a bus full of people, shooting up abortion clinics, etc. All in the name of the xian or related god (according to them). So yes you have a valid point, to a degree. But not all.

[TheHarlequin]

Even the Crusades were a response to the crumbling of the Byzantine Empire.

 

And the inquisition? That was misunderstood as well in your mind I suppose too. Bible bleeding hearts like you are a dime a dozen from my travels. Always making up rationals for atrocities committed by (their) faith/organized religion.

[Nepenthe]

Even the Crusades were a response to the crumbling of the Byzantine Empire.

 

And the inquisition? That was misunderstood as well in your mind I suppose too. Bible bleeding hearts like you are a dime a dozen from my travels. Always making up rationals for atrocities committed by (their) faith/organized religion.

But what's your excuse?

[TheHarlequin]

Even the Crusades were a response to the crumbling of the Byzantine Empire.

 

And the inquisition? That was misunderstood as well in your mind I suppose too. Bible bleeding hearts like you are a dime a dozen from my travels. Always making up rationals for atrocities committed by (their) faith/organized religion.

But what's your excuse?

 

I am a ordained Wiccan minister. Last I knew no wars, genocides or mass atrocities were ever committed in the name of Wicca. But if I missed one please do point it out.

[Tale]

Hard for Wiccans to declare war and commit atrocities when the modern version of it is so young and without political influence.

 

It's like saying people named Sarah are inherently peaceful because your three year old daughter never murdered anyone.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Tale

[Hurlshort]

Bible bleeding heart, awesome! I will be honest, you are probably the most close minded person on this forum, so it is funny to hear you go on about this stuff.

 

Not sure if you've noticed, but no one has condemned you for being wiccan, while you seem eager to condemn folks for being Christian...even when they haven't stated their beliefs.

[Nepenthe]

Bible bleeding heart, awesome! I will be honest, you are probably the most close minded person on this forum, so it is funny to hear you go on about this stuff.

 

Not sure if you've noticed, but no one has condemned you for being wiccan, while you seem eager to condemn folks for being Christian...even when they haven't stated their beliefs.

Yes, and for the record, i was referring to what Hurlshot's saying here, in my usual oblique way.

[Darth InSidious]

Not random at all, good sir!

 

Conservatives at odds with Vatican over condoms

 

Yes, I'm aware of Benedict's edict. But it was random given that really, it has little to do with the pagans and their treatment in Glastonbury.

Two points, for information, etc.:

1. It's not an edict.

2. Full quote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11804798

[Humodour]

I was actually trolling; I had no intention of starting the 'religion causes war' debate, although in hindsight it was a natural evolution of what was being said.

 

I'm just glad that the Pope (and one of the most conservative ones at that!) has drawn the obvious connection between condom use and "Thou shalt not kill" - leaving aside the fact that the Vatican ignorantly sees prostitutes (male or female) as immoral - it's pretty self-evident that by not using condoms you are risking the lives of others in many situations, and thus violating one of the ten commandments.

[TheHarlequin]

Hard for Wiccans to declare war and commit atrocities when the modern version of it is so young and without political influence.

 

It's like saying people named Sarah are inherently peaceful because your three year old daughter never murdered anyone.

 

Exactly.. so his point was what then..?

Edited November 25, 2010 by TheHarlequin

[TheHarlequin]

Bible bleeding heart, awesome! I will be honest, you are probably the most close minded person on this forum, so it is funny to hear you go on about this stuff.

 

Not sure if you've noticed, but no one has condemned you for being wiccan, while you seem eager to condemn folks for being Christian...even when they haven't stated their beliefs.

 

Every time I state something about the xian faith you apparently take offense with some snide remark or/and offer some kind of rationalization as you did above. Just calling it like I see it. Not close minded at all, its called observant of your predictable replies and stating such. The day I post something about the xian faith and you don't come back at me with some kind of defensive retort then I'll be happy to re-evaluate my opinion of you.

 

I don't condemn folks for being xian, I condemn the radicals and right wingers and their hate mongering that most organized religions breed. If I dislike something its ALL mass organized religions just not xians. If you read all my posts on the topic you will see I am very consistent on that level. xian is just easy to use as a example so yes I tend to single it out but as a whole I do not have a issue with those of that faith. I have a issue with what many branches of that faith does to its followers however (breed ignorance, hate, etc) .

[Orogun01]

Even the Crusades were a response to the crumbling of the Byzantine Empire.

 

And the inquisition? That was misunderstood as well in your mind I suppose too. Bible bleeding hearts like you are a dime a dozen from my travels. Always making up rationals for atrocities committed by (their) faith/organized religion.

But what's your excuse?

 

I am a ordained Wiccan minister. Last I knew no wars, genocides or mass atrocities were ever committed in the name of Wicca. But if I missed one please do point it out.

Wiccan is a modern offshoot of ancient Celts druids and other pagan beliefs, some of which (like the druids) had been involved in ritual sacrifice. So yeah; Wiccan are in the minor leagues when it comes to killing.

[Hurlshort]

And how many atrocities, ignorance, hate, wars and deaths would have been avoided if spirituality was the main belief and not organized religion? Our world history would be a LOT more peaceful.

 

Every time I state something about the xian faith you apparently take offense with some snide remark or/and offer some kind of rationalization as you did above. Just calling it like I see it. Not close minded at all, its called observant of your predictable replies and stating such. The day I post something about the xian faith and you don't come back at me with some kind of defensive retort then I'll be happy to re-evaluate my opinion of you.

 

The problem I have with your posts on organized religion is they are way over to one extreme. I usually do take exception to people attacking organized religion as some sort of evil incarnate. I also take exception to the folks who believe organized religion is infallible. Religion is simply a manifestation of human nature. It is as great and terrible as man himself. When you make a claim like "Our world history would be a LOT more peaceful" it is rife with problems.

 

What if a pagan religion had dominated Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire instead of Christianity? Do you really imagine it would have been sunshine and butterflies for everyone? Most pagan religions practiced various forms of sacrifice, and the tribes that practiced paganism weren't known for their peacefulness. What if Buddhism swept across the world? Buddhists have a history of violence as well. It's just not a realistic argument, religion has always existed and, as I said earlier, it can be as great and as terrible as human nature itself.

[pmp10]

Even the Crusades were a response to the crumbling of the Byzantine Empire.

 

And the inquisition? That was misunderstood as well in your mind I suppose too.

Inquisitions practice and results have generally been grossly misrepresented in modern culture.

Especially compared to death toll in wars of religion, which are conveniently ignored.

[Orogun01]

The problem I have with your posts on organized religion is they are way over to one extreme. I usually do take exception to people attacking organized religion as some sort of evil incarnate. I also take exception to the folks who believe organized religion is infallible. Religion is simply a manifestation of human nature. It is as great and terrible as man himself. When you make a claim like "Our world history would be a LOT more peaceful" it is rife with problems.

 

What if a pagan religion had dominated Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire instead of Christianity? Do you really imagine it would have been sunshine and butterflies for everyone? Most pagan religions practiced various forms of sacrifice, and the tribes that practiced paganism weren't known for their peacefulness. What if Buddhism swept across the world? Buddhists have a history of violence as well. It's just not a realistic argument, religion has always existed and, as I said earlier, it can be as great and as terrible as human nature itself.

I agree, most people openly against religion have religious backgrounds so it's something very personal for them. Their view is eschewed and they put off religion as extremism, it is human nature after all. Politics got the same treatment back in the 60's with all the Cold War paranoia, so it's not something inherent to religion but something about institutionalized perceptions that it's open to abuse by men.

[TheHarlequin]

Even the Crusades were a response to the crumbling of the Byzantine Empire.

 

And the inquisition? That was misunderstood as well in your mind I suppose too. Bible bleeding hearts like you are a dime a dozen from my travels. Always making up rationals for atrocities committed by (their) faith/organized religion.

But what's your excuse?

 

I am a ordained Wiccan minister. Last I knew no wars, genocides or mass atrocities were ever committed in the name of Wicca. But if I missed one please do point it out.

Wiccan is a modern offshoot of ancient Celts druids and other pagan beliefs, some of which (like the druids) had been involved in ritual sacrifice. So yeah; Wiccan are in the minor leagues when it comes to killing.

 

And...? Waiting for you to tell me something I don't know.. unless you were just validating my point. Then fair enough.

[TheHarlequin]

And how many atrocities, ignorance, hate, wars and deaths would have been avoided if spirituality was the main belief and not organized religion? Our world history would be a LOT more peaceful.

 

Every time I state something about the xian faith you apparently take offense with some snide remark or/and offer some kind of rationalization as you did above. Just calling it like I see it. Not close minded at all, its called observant of your predictable replies and stating such. The day I post something about the xian faith and you don't come back at me with some kind of defensive retort then I'll be happy to re-evaluate my opinion of you.

 

The problem I have with your posts on organized religion is they are way over to one extreme. I usually do take exception to people attacking organized religion as some sort of evil incarnate. I also take exception to the folks who believe organized religion is infallible. Religion is simply a manifestation of human nature. It is as great and terrible as man himself. When you make a claim like "Our world history would be a LOT more peaceful" it is rife with problems.

 

What if a pagan religion had dominated Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire instead of Christianity? Do you really imagine it would have been sunshine and butterflies for everyone? Most pagan religions practiced various forms of sacrifice, and the tribes that practiced paganism weren't known for their peacefulness. What if Buddhism swept across the world? Buddhists have a history of violence as well. It's just not a realistic argument, religion has always existed and, as I said earlier, it can be as great and as terrible as human nature itself.

 

First off you are doing 'What if...' scenarios which we both can fill this thread up with boths sides of the discussion and end up right where we started. Bottom line, we don't know what would have happened to the world if xian never took hold. Good, bad or indifferent is all possible. I personally think more good then bad but certainly I don't really know and neither does anyone else.

 

Second, Your analogy is flawed to what I am saying. An accurate analogy I would say is what if in Europe mass organized religion (xian specifically in this example but any really) didn't take hold. If it was all kept at the local, temple, parish, coven, etc level. Would things like mini-inquisitions and 'holy wars' still take place. Because of human nature probably. However the large scale, global wars/atrocities prob wouldn't have taken place or at least a lot would have been prevented. Hence the logic in my comment.

 

Third, my posts are not extreme at all. When I talk about the facts of a religion that what they are, facts. Just because they are ugly truths some of that faith rather pretend didn't exist does not change the reality of the situation. I think its important to lift the rug up and put some light on the dirt rather then pretend it does not exist as some do. As only then can real discussion and learning take place when we look at the whole truths.. the good, bad and ugly.

 

And yes SOME xian churches do food banks and shelters. Some do good, never said otherwise.

 

However in the big picture IMO that's making up for a shotgun wound with a band-aid. On one side we have the church forcing people to convert using murder/torture and destroying entire cultures and other belief systems, fighting against science and actively trying to keep the population ignorant, waging wars in the name of their god, stealing from other religions then turning around and condemning those religions they stole from, diddling alter boys and covering it up.

 

On the other hand they feed the homeless and offer some other basic social services. Nobel gesture? Yes. IMO far too little considering what they have done.

 

hhmmm call me crazy but I don't think that's a very equal distribution of pros and cons. And that's why I have my issues with large org religions. As they are mainly corrupt and all about power and control. The helping the fellow man has mostly fallen by the way side sadly and been vastly overshadowed by their ills and so yes that's what I mainly see. It's not that hard for you to see my point. For every pro you can list I can retort 4 cons they have done. 1700 yrs is a lot of time they had to screw up over and over and not learn from their mistakes.

 

Now if what you meant by the above 'extreme' comment is you don't like my opinions of org religions based on those facts well.. that's just tough.. I am entitled to them and IMO are justified. And again I am a firm believer in if you are going to talk about such topics then recognize and acknowledge both the good and bad.

[Humodour]

I bet you'd look good on the dance floor.

[Malcador]

Time to burn the witch.