Israel butchers civilians in international waters

[heathen]

Yes, the only country which ever violates human rights in UN's view is Israel. If you don't understand how biased (or really hateful) of Israel that association of tyrants and murderers is, you really don't belong in this discussion.

 

Given your track record in this thread I'd say your opinions are skewed to say the least. Dismissing a well documented humanitarian disaster with a link to a picture of a table full of apples for example.

 

I don't see any bias against Israel. I see reports of violations of human rights in Israel, same as I've seen reports of Spain, Mexico and multiple other places.

It wasn't a table full of apples, it was a whole market full of food. If you can't even understand what you're looking at, read this:

Yes and as I explained, there are 1.5 million people in Gazam the vast majority of who can't afford to pay the prices the smugglers and markets are asking for the food.

 

Gazans lament where they can't go more than what they can't buy. They also decry the lack of employment -- with no building supplies and few trade possibilities, joblessness is rampant. Once an exporter of fruits and other goods, Gaza has been turned into a mini-welfare state with a broken economy where food and daily goods are plentiful, but where 80 percent of the population depends on charity. Hospitals, schools, electricity systems and sewage treatment facilities are all in deep disrepair.

 

Yet if you walk down Gaza City's main thoroughfare -- Salah al-Din Street -- grocery stores are stocked wall-to-wall with everything from fresh Israeli yogurts and hummus to Cocoa Puffs smuggled in from Egypt. Pharmacies look as well-supplied as a typical Rite Aid in the United States.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...ST2010060204691

 

Yes, that link says that the vast majority of people in Gaza are living in impoverished conditions and can't afford the bare necessities of life. A quote:

 

Some of the restrictions on consumer goods are hard to explain -- like a ban on nutmeg or coriander. Others seem designed to create as much pressure as possible.

 

"Margarine is permitted in small packages for household consumption, but it is banned in large buckets because it's a factory input that would allow people to have jobs and engage in economic work," said Sari Bashi, executive director of Gisha, a not-for-profit organization whose goal is to protect freedom of movement of Palestinians. "The closure is explicitly designed to cripple Gaza's economy."

 

Now, he said, "I see people spending 10 hours a day for [$5] digging up stones."

 

What was that link exactly meant to prove?

Edited June 7, 2010 by heathen

[Wrath of Dagon]

Gazans readily admit they are not going hungry. But that, they say, is the wrong benchmark for assessing their quality of life. While Gaza has long been poor, the economy has completely crumbled over the past three years.

 

 

Gazan workers, Shaban said, "used to be earning $100 per day, smoking Marlboros and going to Egypt every two months on vacation."

 

Now, he said, "I see people spending 10 hours a day for [$5] digging up stones."

No one is denying Gazans are undergoing hardships. But the reason for that is that Hamas is at war with Israel, and war means hardships at the least. Gazans voted for Hamas and cheered and celebrated suicide bombers. Now they're reaping what they sowed.

[Calax]

I mean after all Israel broke a truce and demolished most of the Gaza infrastructure, killing more innocents than Hamas would have in the same amount of time. To the point that Israel was accused of war crimes, as was Palestinian militants.

The wikipedia link (which in itself is a very biased UN prevention of human rights commission report) does not give any evidence that Israelis broke the truce, in fact it only says the ceasefire was brought to a de-facto end by Israel's use of force on Nov 4, without stating a reason for the use of force.

The truce was supposed to go until December

 

On November 4, 2008, Israeli infantry, tanks, and bulldozers made their first major incursion 250m into the Gaza Strip since the June truce.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7709603.stm

[heathen]

No one is denying Gazans are undergoing hardships. But the reason for that is that Hamas is at war with Israel, and war means hardships at the least. Gazans voted for Hamas and cheered and celebrated suicide bombers. Now they're reaping what they sowed.

 

Yes, yet that doesn't remove the fact that Israel is committing human rights violations in Gaza. The whole blockade is unlawful, the "war" is basically one-sided and Israel keeps on settling Palestinian land, despite the UN and the US both condemning it. No one is saying Hamas isn't responsible for the situation as well, it's just that there's not much they're doing to keep the war going or can do to end it.

Edited June 7, 2010 by heathen

[Cycloneman]

Yes, well. But it's also been sufficiently proven that your general ignorance is comparable only to your lack of common sense. So you'll understand if I don't take your word as gospel.

You are either a moron or you live in an alternate dimension where black is white and white is black and things like "castle law" don't exist. The only ignorant person here is you.

Wrong, again The limits of the blockade extend to encompass *SHOCK!!!* the Gaza Strip.

I already explained that you need to state what items are blockaded for a blockade to be legal. Israel does not do so, ergo their blockade is not legal. Can you please manage to actually address this point instead of flailing senselessly for unrelated news articles?

Over here in the real world, the titles of YouTube videos are not considered evidence. Good day.

At any rate, I provided documental evidence. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't valid (we accept Al-Jazeera, we should accept Israeli papers).

lmao @ the idea that the Israeli government = Al-Jazeera.

Now find me proof they didn't use axes or firearms taken from the soldiers.

There was a video posted earlier in the thread where people who were there were interviewed and they specifically stated that the subdued Israeli's firearms were set aside. Try reading the thread before posting.

[Wrath of Dagon]

On November 4, 2008, Israeli infantry, tanks, and bulldozers made their first major incursion 250m into the Gaza Strip since the June truce.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7709603.stm

 

From your link:

Troops had entered Gaza to destroy what Israel said was a tunnel dug by militants to abduct its troops.

 

One militant died in the gunfight, and a subsequent Israeli air strike on Hamas positions in southern Gaza killed at least five fighters, medics said.

 

An Israeli military spokeswoman said three air strikes took place, targeting militants who had fired mortars and rockets at Israeli forces.

 

The fighting broke out on Tuesday evening as Israeli tanks and a bulldozer moved 250m into the central part of the coastal enclave, backed by military aircraft, says the BBC's Aleem Maqbool in Ramallah.

 

Residents of central Gaza's el-Bureij refugee camp said a missile fired from an unmanned Israeli drone flying over the area injured another three Hamas gunmen.

 

'Harsh response'

 

A truce between the two sides had so far largely held since it was declared on 19 June, although according to the Israeli military dozens of rockets and missiles have been fired in the past four and a half months.

 

Israel said Tuesday's raid was not a violation of the ceasefire, but rather a legitimate step to remove an immediate threat.

[Walsingham]

No one is denying Gazans are undergoing hardships. But the reason for that is that Hamas is at war with Israel, and war means hardships at the least. Gazans voted for Hamas and cheered and celebrated suicide bombers. Now they're reaping what they sowed.

 

Yes, yet that doesn't remove the fact that Israel is committing human rights violations in Gaza. The whole blockade is unlawful, the "war" is basically one-sided and Israel keeps on settling Palestinian land, despite the UN and the US both condemning it. No one is saying Hamas isn't responsible for the situation as well, it's just that there's not much they're doing to keep the war going or can do to end it.

 

Um... I don't see that it's Israel's fault if Hamas try to prosecute a war they can't win in conventional terms. In fact new thought: if one is fighting an unconventional opponent then surely the conventional modes of war are BY DEFINITION redundant? Do we need a new law of unconventional warfare? There's certainly a lot of unconventional war a-going on.

[Oerwinde]

That doesn't mean that they should leave Israel alone to commit war crimes and an unlawful blockade and steal the palestinian land.

They've been stealing Palestinian land since the 30s. No one is going to do anything about it now.

[heathen]

Um... I don't see that it's Israel's fault if Hamas try to prosecute a war they can't win in conventional terms. In fact new thought: if one is fighting an unconventional opponent then surely the conventional modes of war are BY DEFINITION redundant? Do we need a new law of unconventional warfare? There's certainly a lot of unconventional war a-going on.

 

There's always two sides to a war. I don't see Israel giving up one bit of what they've won in the war. 200, hell even 100 years ago they could have just butchered and raped the Palestinians into submission. Now such tactics have consequences far worse than what they'd actually win.

 

That doesn't mean that they should leave Israel alone to commit war crimes and an unlawful blockade and steal the palestinian land.

They've been stealing Palestinian land since the 30s. No one is going to do anything about it now.

 

Actually it looks like people are just starting to do something about it.

 

Israel cannot win the war against Gaza/Hamas. They've gone as far as they can, and are now slowly starving 1.5 million people with that blockade. There are two options: complete annihilation or a truce that Hamas accepts. I don't honestly know which one they want more.

Edited June 7, 2010 by heathen

[Wrath of Dagon]

Once again, they're not starving. But I guess there's no evidence that will convince someone like you.

[heathen]

Once again, they're not starving. But I guess there's no evidence that will convince someone like you.

 

Right, they have the bare necessities to stay alive. Would that be the right wording? Arguing over semantics won't change the fact that Israel cannot keep this embargo up forever.

[Calax]

Once again, they're not starving. But I guess there's no evidence that will convince someone like you.

so, I guess taking all your clothes and leaving you with a 4"X4" square of wool would be all right to you for public modesty?

[heathen]

Once again, they're not starving. But I guess there's no evidence that will convince someone like you.

so, I guess taking all your clothes and leaving you with a 4"X4" square of wool would be all right to you for public modesty?

 

 

I guess Dagon gets his income by going through garbage like many are forced to in Gaza since he sees nothing wrong with it.

[Volourn]

"Why is it that if anyone says anything mildly bad against the jewish people, it's anti Semitic but when anyone does that to any other group (or they do it to any other group) it's not made much of?"

 

Kiddin' right? Say stuff about Blacks, Muslims, and Mexicans, and watch the accusations of bigotry fly. I feel for the poor Asians myself as people seem to be able ttrash them and get away with it.

 

 

"They've been stealing Palestinian land since the 30s."

 

Nonsense. The 'Palestinians' are a makebelieve group that was inventtedn out of thin air and are relatively new decribed as 'Palestinians'. The so called Palestinian land was stolen from Jews (and others) well before that. Is it REALLY theft to take back that was stolen from you in the first place? Really wish people would pay attention to real history and not the modern fable that's been pushed as 'fact'.

[Cycloneman]

Nonsense. The 'Palestinians' are a makebelieve group that was inventtedn out of thin air and are relatively new decribed as 'Palestinians'. The so called Palestinian land was stolen from Jews (and others) well before that. Is it REALLY theft to take back that was stolen from you in the first place? Really wish people would pay attention to real history and not the modern fable that's been pushed as 'fact'.

So it would be okay for native Americans to drive whites out of the new world?

[Volourn]

"So it would be okay for native Americans to drive whites out of the new world?"

 

No. They weren't the original inhabitants of NA either despite the 'native' part of their name.

 

On top of that, considering the fact, the natives (which btw I am technically enough indian blood in me to be considered for bigoted native only bonuses in Kanada go figure), hypocriticval claim that 'nobody owns then lan and is everybody's all the while staking their claim on it. On top of that, indiains had a habit of murdering each other for the land, women, and goods (and, yes, I know now all tribes were like that as there were peaceful ones as well) so what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

So, yeah, if Natives could take out 'whitey' (it';s nice to see your bigotry towards whites is high sicne you didn't bother to mention blacks, mexicans, and other races just the big bad boogeyman whitey) then by golly they could do it.

 

In conclusion, antives NEVER owned NA so they have no real claim to it contrary to what butthurt people think. Like I said above, going by many Native teachings, NOBODy can technically own land and it's owned by 'everyone'. So.. why so butthurt?

 

 

P.S. The alrger issue though is that peoplem who spouse the fact that the 'jews stole palestinian land' is laughable modern talk since a) the land was jewish before it was stolen and b) palestinian is a modern made up term, anyways.

 

P.S.S. This doesn't mean eveyrthing Isreal is does right. In fact, they do lots of things wrong. But, let's not make up facts.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Volourn

[Cycloneman]

No. They weren't the original inhabitants of NA either despite the 'native' part of their name.

And Jews were not the original inhabitants of Israel, either. That would be the Canaanites, or perhaps an even earlier group of tribal hunter-gatherers which has ultimately disappeared from the historical record.

[Nemo0071]

Nonsense. The 'Palestinians' are a makebelieve group that was inventtedn out of thin air and are relatively new decribed as 'Palestinians'. The so called Palestinian land was stolen from Jews (and others) well before that. Is it REALLY theft to take back that was stolen from you in the first place? Really wish people would pay attention to real history and not the modern fable that's been pushed as 'fact'.

Please, don't go there; don't use that argument. Because when you use that argument, it's like saying, for example, Jerusalem (a holy city for three major religions) belongs rightfully to Israel, and only Israel, simply because Judaism was the first major Abrahamic religion. I seriously doubt that anyone here thinks "religion has nothing to do with this war", but regardless, I used Jerusalem only as an example.

 

As someone already mentioned, if you look back in time far enough (in a world history full of wars & conquests), you can always find something to disagree on which particular part of the Earth originally belongs to who. But we're talking about "modern times" and "modern warfare" here. Modern times, as in "here I am, sitting in my house, going to school, going to work etc. without fear of an all-out war that I'll at some point get sucked into" times. Modern warfare, as in "a war that is not considered normal in the said modern times".

 

In the 21st (and late 20th) century, destroying people's homes and taking their lands for your own people is not considered the norm. It is considered outrageous and out of the question. And yet Israel did that. And now they're destroying Gaza's economy in an attempt at psychological warfare hoping they'll just give up and leave.

 

Which is also why I lol @ "zomg bazaar full of goodies!!1!".

If you don't have a job, you don't have money. If you don't have money, you can just stare at the goods mentioned above. Add to that you're not allowed to recieve outside help, and you starve. Or go through garbage. Or whatever "homeless" (see what I did there?) people do, which would not be my choice of lifestyle.

[Volourn]

"And Jews were not the original inhabitants of Israel, either. That would be the Canaanites, or perhaps an even earlier group of tribal hunter-gatherers which has ultimately disappeared from the historical record."

 

Never clamed they were. That's why I had (and others) in brackets.

 

 

"In the 21st (and late 20th) century, destroying people's homes and taking their lands for your own people is not considered the norm. It is considered outrageous and out of the question. And yet Israel did that. And now they're destroying Gaza's economy in an attempt at psychological warfare hoping they'll just give up and leave."

 

You just dscribed how every Muslim country in the ME feels and has done to Isreal, and you probably justify it. And, Gaza's economy is destroyed because of Hamas, the rulers of Palestine.

[Calax]

"And Jews were not the original inhabitants of Israel, either. That would be the Canaanites, or perhaps an even earlier group of tribal hunter-gatherers which has ultimately disappeared from the historical record."

 

Never clamed they were. That's why I had (and others) in brackets.

 

 

"In the 21st (and late 20th) century, destroying people's homes and taking their lands for your own people is not considered the norm. It is considered outrageous and out of the question. And yet Israel did that. And now they're destroying Gaza's economy in an attempt at psychological warfare hoping they'll just give up and leave."

 

You just dscribed how every Muslim country in the ME feels and has done to Isreal, and you probably justify it. And, Gaza's economy is destroyed because of Hamas, the rulers of Palestine.

It's hard to have an economy when you don't have the ability to trade with an outside party and can barely support your own population.

Nonsense. The 'Palestinians' are a makebelieve group that was inventtedn out of thin air and are relatively new decribed as 'Palestinians'. The so called Palestinian land was stolen from Jews (and others) well before that. Is it REALLY theft to take back that was stolen from you in the first place? Really wish people would pay attention to real history and not the modern fable that's been pushed as 'fact'.

Do you like contradicting yourself? I mean according to you palestine is perfectly justified in pushing the Israelis out

[Nemo0071]

"In the 21st (and late 20th) century, destroying people's homes and taking their lands for your own people is not considered the norm. It is considered outrageous and out of the question. And yet Israel did that. And now they're destroying Gaza's economy in an attempt at psychological warfare hoping they'll just give up and leave."

 

You just dscribed how every Muslim country in the ME feels and has done to Isreal, and you probably justify it.

No offense, but it lacks clarity. Are you suggesting my point is correct, or are you saying that it's actually Israel that has gone through economical & psychological oppression? Which one do you think I'm justifying?

 

Assuming it's the latter, lol. Considering Israel had the western world's support from the very beginning, and considering their economical & military strenght, I doubt they recieved any kind of psychological trauma, suicide bombings aside (because countries don't take part in suicide bombings, extremist groups do).

 

 

And, Gaza's economy is destroyed because of Hamas, the rulers of Palestine.

I disagree. Hamas is less then innocent, but in this case, it's simply an organization looking to fill it's coffers; you can't put the blame on them for putting people out of jobs & hurting econony. You can, however, put the blame on Israel for blocking their traffic of commercial products and/or industry materials (as mentioned in an earlier post).

[Volourn]

"it's simply an organization looking to fill it's coffers; you can't put the blame on them for putting people out of jobs & hurting econony."

 

Hamas is the democratically elected governemtn of Plaestine. It is their job to do what's best in the inetrest of Palestinian civilians which they do not.

 

 

"(because countries don't take part in suicide bombings, extremist groups do)."

 

Wut? Sure, they do. Isn't old skool Japan known for its kamakazee type of attacks?

 

Palestine also commits sucide bombings and that's a governing body of a country. So, why make stuff up?

 

I think the misatek you people are making is assuming I'm notsome hardcore Isreal backer. I'm not. I'm all for a Palestine country. In this thread, I criticzed Isreal for how it handle this particular situation. I still find out Hamas, and Palestine seems to get a free pass from anti Isreal groups.

 

 

"Assuming it's the latter, lol. Considering Israel had the western world's support from the very beginning, and considering their economical & military strenght, I doubt they recieved any kind of psychological trauma, suicide bombings aside (because countries don't take part in suicide bombings, extremist groups do)."

 

Western support from the beggining? L0LZ How quickly one forgets the Holocaust. How quicjkly forget the constant attacks on isreal by the UN despite there being much worst countries in the world when it comes to abusing human rights. Let's not forget the 6 Muslim countries that all attack Isreal at once. Or the threat by iran to wipe 'Isreal off the map'.

 

That's the difference. Isreal isn't trying to wipe out Palestine, but the current democratic leaders of Palestine surely would wipe out Isreal if they could, as would Iran.

 

 

"I doubt they recieved any kind of psychological trauma"

 

Yeah, because the the threat of constant rocket attacks or suicide bombings at bust stops and coffee shops isn't psychologically traumatic. Come on, now. Palestine and Isreal are BOTH guilty of inflicted psychological trauma each other, and until they BOTh ship up, it will continue.

[Gorgon]

We should have given the Jews Bavaria. Would be a certain poetic justice in it, and then they wouldn't have been able to cause any ruckus in the middle east. We would all have been best of friends.

 

Well except for the Bavarians, but I can live with that.

[Nemo0071]

"it's simply an organization looking to fill it's coffers; you can't put the blame on them for putting people out of jobs & hurting econony."

 

Hamas is the democratically elected governemtn of Plaestine. It is their job to do what's best in the inetrest of Palestinian civilians which they do not.

I stressed that "just in this one case" Hamas is not to blame, while Israel is the one preventing any kind of industrial / commercial process, and so, putting people out of jobs. It's like you don't read the posts you're answering to.

 

 

"(because countries don't take part in suicide bombings, extremist groups do)."

 

Wut? Sure, they do. Isn't old skool Japan known for its kamakazee type of attacks?

 

Palestine also commits sucide bombings and that's a governing body of a country. So, why make stuff up?

Kamikaze is a thing of the past. It was last seen in WW2, if I'm not completely mistaken. We're talking about the recent (post-WW2) era, aren't we? And I meant that whole countries don't commit / approve of suicide bombings. Hamas is still an extremist group, even if they're "democratically" elected (we discussed before how democratic the situation could possibly be).

 

 

I think the misatek you people are making is assuming I'm notsome hardcore Isreal backer. I'm not. I'm all for a Palestine country. In this thread, I criticzed Isreal for how it handle this particular situation. I still find out Hamas, and Palestine seems to get a free pass from anti Isreal groups.

Nope. I didn't assume you're one thing or another. You, otoh, seem to overlook the fact that NO BODY here gave Hamas a free pass about anything. I for one have repeatedly said "I don't approve of their actions", or something along those lines. You really should read the posts thoroughly.

 

 

"Assuming it's the latter, lol. Considering Israel had the western world's support from the very beginning, and considering their economical & military strenght, I doubt they recieved any kind of psychological trauma, suicide bombings aside (because countries don't take part in suicide bombings, extremist groups do)."

 

Western support from the beggining? L0LZ How quickly one forgets the Holocaust. How quicjkly forget the constant attacks on isreal by the UN despite there being much worst countries in the world when it comes to abusing human rights. Let's not forget the 6 Muslim countries that all attack Isreal at once. Or the threat by iran to wipe 'Isreal off the map'.

 

That's the difference. Isreal isn't trying to wipe out Palestine, but the current democratic leaders of Palestine surely would wipe out Isreal if they could, as would Iran.

It seems to me that YOU are the one forgetting about the Holocaust...

Could it be the western world gave their heartfelt support to Israel all this time BECAUSE they were the victim of a mass genocide? And could it be now that Israel is the bad guy and Palestinians are the victims, western sympathy is shifting from Jews to Gazans? Just a thought...

 

Oh, and if you think Israel wouldn't wipe out Palestine if the whole world wasn't watching, then you're being either naive, or biased.

 

 

"I doubt they recieved any kind of psychological trauma"

 

Yeah, because the the threat of constant rocket attacks or suicide bombings at bust stops and coffee shops isn't psychologically traumatic. Come on, now. Palestine and Isreal are BOTH guilty of inflicted psychological trauma each other, and until they BOTh ship up, it will continue.

I mentioned suicide bombings as an exception and told you the reasoning behind it being an exception.

 

Yes, they both need to come to an understanding and make some sacrifices. But considering Israel (obviously) has the upper hand, if they make some kind of compromise, it's a compromise for peace. If Palestine (insert Hamas if you wish) makes a compromise, it's surrender / game over, which is unlikely for them to accept, and which is why I think Israel should be the one taking the first step. But as people suggested, they had a few good opportunities in the past, but...

[213374U]

You are either a moron or you live in an alternate dimension where black is white and white is black and things like "castle law" don't exist. The only ignorant person here is you.

No, you dolt. The thing is, just because in San Marcos, TX property limits are enforced over the life of trespassers, no questions asked, it doesn't mean the rest of the world works that way. So yeah, I live in an "alternate dimension", outside of the USA (where even castle law isn't universally applied). It's a healthy habit to dislodge your head from your ass and look around, every now and then. Wait, nevermind that. In case of doubt, pull the trigger! Yee-haw!

 

And hey, I'd also like to see you try to justify killing a warrant-bearing cop, by adducing the castle doctrine. Because that's what the commandos were. Mind the soap!

 

 

I already explained that you need to state what items are blockaded for a blockade to be legal. Israel does not do so, ergo their blockade is not legal. Can you please manage to actually address this point instead of flailing senselessly for unrelated news articles?

No. Requirements (Section II, arts.93-108). Israel has stated that anything but "basic humanitarian supplies" will be refused entry. Of all the angles I've seen the legality of the blockade attacked from, the need for a comprehensive, permanent list of banned goods is the weakest. Interestingly, I've only heard it from you. Coincidence? I think not!

 

 

Over here in the real world, the titles of YouTube videos are not considered evidence. Good day.

Over here in the real world, we watch videos instead of mumbling randomly about their titles. Or maybe you have actually never seen an axe? Yeah, that must be it.

 

 

lmao @ the idea that the Israeli government = Al-Jazeera.

LMAO @ the idea that Israeli govt = Israeli papers. Prove that Israeli papers are under the direct control of the Zionist apparatus and work as propaganda machines.

 

 

There was a video posted earlier in the thread where people who were there were interviewed and they specifically stated that the subdued Israeli's firearms were set aside. Try reading the thread before posting.

And there was a news item posted earlier where it was specifically stated that soldiers were taken in with gunshot wounds, with testimonies that the soldiers' guns were taken and used against them. Prove that it was the soldiers who shot each other. Try, I don't know, being less brain-dead in general. Edited June 8, 2010 by 213374U