Moscow metro bombing

[Walsingham]

BBC link

 

Daily Telegraph

 

Al Jazeera

 

There will inevitably be people who will say this was justified in some way. That it is the execution of a weapon or method of war.

 

Yet leaving aside the obvious question of who sanctions and empowers these terrorists to act, it is still possible to condemn such action as going too far even as a method of war. Irrespective of political leaning there are very very few who would condone the use of chemical or biological weapons, or high altitude carpet bombing, or systematic rape. Even though these have been used as warfighting methods. Rather than make excuses based on motivation, I argue that terrorism should be treated exactly the same way.

[BicycleOfDeath]

[blah, blah, blah] .... I argue that terrorism should be treated exactly the same way.

It would makes sense to. Though, if the intention is to dissuade potential terrorists then I don't think it's going to do much. Though, I think the punishment for terrorism should be extremely harsh no matter what soil the terrorism happens to plague. I'm all for sending a message, but politically, I do not believe violence against the general population is a just action.

 

P.S. Thank you for taking the time to post the multiple links.

[Gorgon]

Who did it

[Meshugger]

Some women who claimed to have lost their husbands in chechenyan war. A.k.a the "Black widows".

[Walsingham]

While I would not be surprised if it was 'Black Widows' I believe we should keep an open mind for four reasons.

 

1. Reports coming from Iraq and Afghanistan suggest a willingness by Jihadists* to use women who are subjected to normal suicide bomb training, rather than being self-maintainers. That is a period of enforced isolation, coupled with drug use, and ending in a drug-induced haze**. So it could be non-aggrieved women.

 

2. The utility of black widows is tremendous because they are so highly motivated. Although some have suggested they may have been chosen to hit this target because they are less well monitored by the security services this seems a very easy access target to use them up on. Why not another Beslan, or Mumbai attack?

 

3. It is quite possible that the mere appearance of ordinary veiled muslim women might have provoked an unfortunate connection in the minds of witnesses.

 

4. It is very common now for male terrorists to go about fully veiled as a means of evading search.

 

 

~~

*I use the term deliberately here as distinct from jifascist, since Chechen involvement is more complicated.

 

** It's unconnected, but at the bottom of that page you will see a brilliant comment. The author is upset that the bomb disposal guys disrobe the woman in the street. Rather than what? Take her someplace else where she might go off?

Edited March 30, 2010 by Walsingham

[Wrath of Dagon]

I don't think you get to go around veiled in Russia, just an educated guess.

[Walsingham]

I don't think you get to go around veiled in Russia, just an educated guess.

 

[vault_overseer]

Russian here to answer your questions.

 

EDIT:

While I would not be surprised if it was 'Black Widows' I believe we should keep an open mind for four reasons.

 

1. Reports coming from Iraq and Afghanistan suggest a willingness by Jihadists* to use women who are subjected to normal suicide bomb training, rather than being self-maintainers. That is a period of enforced isolation, coupled with drug use, and ending in a drug-induced haze**. So it could be non-aggrieved women.

 

2. The utility of black widows is tremendous because they are so highly motivated. Although some have suggested they may have been chosen to hit this target because they are less well monitored by the security services this seems a very easy access target to use them up on. Why not another Beslan, or Mumbai attack?

 

3. It is quite possible that the mere appearance of ordinary veiled muslim women might have provoked an unfortunate connection in the minds of witnesses.

 

4. It is very common now for male terrorists to go about fully veiled as a means of evading search.

 

 

~~

*I use the term deliberately here as distinct from jifascist, since Chechen involvement is more complicated.

 

** It's unconnected, but at the bottom of that page you will see a brilliant comment. The author is upset that the bomb disposal guys disrobe the woman in the street. Rather than what? Take her someplace else where she might go off?

 

1. Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts are different from the Chechen one. In Chechnya the conflict is based around the land and historical struggle(wars fought since 19th century) rather than the religious based conflicts of Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

2. It's not the first subway bombing carried out by Black Widows, even though it is the first in 6 years.

 

3. Suicide bombings carried out by Black Widows are most common types of terrorist attacks in Moscow, in last 10 years

 

4. From what I know about chechens, it would be really dishonorable for them to disguise as a woman. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't do it.

 

Now, the interesting part, is that there are plenty of reports indicating that authorities knew about the bombings and tried to stop them. There are a lot of witness reports from sunday night and early monday morning of police searches all over the moscow metro. Seems they were unable to find them in time.

 

Here's a video from the evacuation of a train on one of the stations. Warning, blood and dead bodies!

Edited March 30, 2010 by vault_overseer

[Meshugger]

Has any group taken responsibility for the attack yet?

[Killian Kalthorne]

In any case if these terrorists are caught, with Putin in charge I doubt they will get a nice cushy cell like those at Gitmo.

[vault_overseer]

Has any group taken responsibility for the attack yet?

 

Group unknown right now, i think. Some chechen website took responsibility without naming the group though. IT will probably be some random unheard group.

[vault_overseer]

In any case if these terrorists are caught, with Putin in charge I doubt they will get a nice cushy cell like those at Gitmo.

Yeah right, one of chechnya's main commanders during the first chechen war is currently the president of chechnya, sitting on the huge stream of money coming from moscow. Russian government will not really hunt anyone, it's not in their interest. They'll talk about need to fight international terrorism, while doing nothing about mobs of chechens causing crimes in the midst of major cities all over the county. Hell, they'll do anything to not provoke chechens. What they will do, is cancel some other elections in the name of fighting the terrorism(just like they did with gubernatorial elections).

 

 

Bahh, I hate current russian government. It's even worse than communist one we had.

[obyknven]

Bahh, I hate current russian government. It's even worse than communist one we had.

A Russian nazi is the worst of all. Russia, a land of peaceful peoples has suffered at the hands of enemies for centuries. The suffering is almost bred into the soul. For a Russian to turn on his own goverment

[Gorgon]

Why exactly do people expect the government to have been able to prevent the attack. A few well trained terrorist can cause a lot of trouble and the chance of stopping them beforehand is relatively minimal.

[vault_overseer]

Bahh, I hate current russian government. It's even worse than communist one we had.

A Russian nazi is the worst of all. Russia, a land of peaceful peoples has suffered at the hands of enemies for centuries. The suffering is almost bred into the soul. For a Russian to turn on his own goverment

[Zoraptor]

Yeah right, one of chechnya's main commanders during the first chechen war is currently the president of chechnya, sitting on the huge stream of money coming from moscow.

Heh.

 

I suspect you're going to get Wrath of Dagon dropping by to tell you that you're wrong soon.

[Walsingham]

It's great that we have Russians laying out the news heer. But i'm confused. Who is Russian here? It's never occurred to me to ask.

[vault_overseer]

Yeah right, one of chechnya's main commanders during the first chechen war is currently the president of chechnya, sitting on the huge stream of money coming from moscow.

Heh.

 

I suspect you're going to get Wrath of Dagon dropping by to tell you that you're wrong soon.

 

Fact that Kadyrov fought against RF in the first war is well documented, as is the fact that he's on the official kremlin payroll.

It's great that we have Russians laying out the news heer. But i'm confused. Who is Russian here? It's never occurred to me to ask.

 

I am. Born and raised in st Petersburg and a little town in south western Russia, somewhat close to both Ukraine and caucas region.

 

Now, I'm a proud citizen of USA.

[Zoraptor]

Yeah right, one of chechnya's main commanders during the first chechen war is currently the president of chechnya, sitting on the huge stream of money coming from moscow.

Heh.

 

I suspect you're going to get Wrath of Dagon dropping by to tell you that you're wrong soon.

 

Fact that Kadyrov fought against RF in the first war is well documented, as is the fact that he's on the official kremlin payroll.

Oh yes, I certainly knew that. I'm just slightly amused because that ^^^ is pretty much exactly what I said, in the general case, a month ago and was told that I was wrong (and it was OT/ irrelevant, which it was in that thread so I didn't push it further).

Edited March 31, 2010 by Zoraptor

[obyknven]

I'm 17 years old, from Russia. Ask your questions.

[Humodour]

I'm 17 years old, from Russia. Ask your questions.

 

Why did you elect an ex-KGB communist as your leader?

[obyknven]

Why did you elect an ex-KGB communist as your leader?

You say it as if it were something bad.

Why did you elect an afroamerican as your leader?

[Gorth]

There is something Kevin Rudd hasn't told us...

[obyknven]

There is something Kevin Rudd hasn't told us...

Oops! It's for americans...

fix for Australians: Why did you elect an communist chinese agent as your leader?

Edited March 31, 2010 by obyknven

[Walsingham]

Now, I'm a proud citizen of USA.

 

Good god! A proud American on the internet! Quick, someone have him stuffed for historical record!

 

Obyknev, I think the question about the KGB revolves around how healthy it is for a democracy to take its elected leaders from a background of extreme secrecy, not to say anti-democratic traditions. Your more appropriate response would have been to question how many US Executives come from the CIA.