The Age of New DRM

[Mamoulian War]

Well have it your way. Still your loss though.

 

My loss is only things that i do realy miss... and believe me, i will never miss any **** like that...

[Morgoth]

Well have it your way. Still your loss though.

 

My loss is only things that i do realy miss... and believe me, i will never miss any **** like that...

Well surely you won't miss the DRM measures, but what if your most favorite game gets released (and you know you want it), but also uses some DRM?

[Mamoulian War]

Well have it your way. Still your loss though.

 

My loss is only things that i do realy miss... and believe me, i will never miss any **** like that...

Well surely you won't miss the DRM measures, but what if your most favorite game gets released (and you know you want it), but also uses some DRM?

 

My most favourite game of 2008 was Mass Effect, and i do not miss at all that i never played that game, i used the saved 50 EUR to purchase 5 Platinum Edition Games for PS1/2, i had so much fun, that i realy do not remember when was the last time i enjoyed my gaming time so much...

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I count CD check in the DRM category, don't you guys ?

 

Yes.

[213374U]

Which is theft, what is your point?

 

Nightshape, by the way, is a person who works on games. When the people creating the games tell you piracy is theft, that would seem to be a fairly authoritative person on the matter.

Not really. If a significant amount of JSDs said that copyright infringement is theft, I'd be more inclined to agree. But that's not likely to happen, since they are in fact different legal types... as far as I know. IANAL

 

If anything, being involved with the game industry makes him less reliable to make such judgements fairly since, well, it's his livelihood that's at stake.

 

 

It isn't a complicated scenario. If you want games to exist, you need to pay for them. There are costs involved that need to be covered somehow. Every time someone pirates a game, they are ignoring the fact that someone spent years on that software and deserves to be compensated for their effort.

Well... time for me to come clean. I admit it. I downloaded Mass Effect. But only after I got a hard copy from the bargain bin, which I didn't even bother tearing the plastic cover from. And I did it only because, mad as it may seem, the scene release contained less malware than retail packages. Less hoops to jump through, less potential trouble to deal with, in short, less headaches for me.

 

Also, I don't appreciate companies illegally curtailing my right to resell games.

 

Is that "theft" or even "piracy"?

 

Now that EA has seen it fit to drop that ridiculous "protection" scheme, chances are I'll happily pay full price for ME2. But yeah, I'm also weird as **** so...

[Gorgon]

They work for the law biding plebs. I know it's a shocking concept, but there are people out there who don't torrent games for no other reason than that it's illegal.

As has already been established, you don't need DRM for Law abiding citizens, as they are already paying for the games. Also established, DRM doesn't function as any sort of barrier for pirates. So DRM fails at it's intended purpose of preventing piracy, and your counterargument is that if we stop using it people will stop paying for games? There's a logical fallacy right in the center of your argument.

No, what I mean is this. There are people who don't torrent and don't know how to apply a crack, who aren't in the loop, just aren't offended by DRM, spend their time on other more rewarding things...

 

For that demographic DRM is 100% successful. For the other, probably vastly larger group of gamers who do, there is no effective response. So, yes, you punish your core consumer base because it's what you can do. In the end it works out better than doing nothing.

 

You guys need to wrap your heads around the fact that DRM can be effective for some people. The speed with which games are released illegally, or the ease with which DRM can be bypassed doesn't change that. When DRM gets draconian it's because the companies think they finally know a way to get ahead of the curve, and they are mostly wrong. This is all true.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Gorgon

[Slowtrain]

So, yes, you punish your core consumer base because it's what you can do. In the end it works out sligthly better than doing nothing.

 

 

How does it work out slightly better than nothing?

 

Pushing the customers who are OK with a drm scheme until they are NO LONGER ok with it because it has become so intrusive and OTT, seems pretty stupid to me.

[Gorgon]

Because doing nothing would be analogous to giving your product away. You will have beaten the illegal downloaders, and bankrupted yourself in the process of course.

 

A Scheme consumers are happy with is not nothing.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Gorgon

[213374U]

Ignorance is bliss, huh.

[Gorgon]

Yeah things are moving a little too fast. I'm used to being able to edit minor points and spelling without communication issues.

[Slowtrain]

Because doing nothing would be analogous to giving your product away. You will have beaten the illegal downloaders, and bankrupted yourself in the process of course.

 

A Scheme consumers are happy with is not nothing.

 

 

But you said specifically, "punishing your consumer base". People don't like to be punished, especdailly when they did nothing wrong. if you punish them enough for doing something they like to do (play games) eventually they are going to stop doing that and go do something else, because that's how punishment works.

 

edit: as has been stated countless times before, DRm doesn't punish "the bad guys", it punishes the people who supporting you and helping you. Its a completely non-sensical approach.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Slowtrain

[cronicler]

The current DRM issues are not really about pirates anyway. Most of the newer DRMs are aimed to eliminate the second hand trading not pirating. From Steam like internet based services to Bioware's newest free DLC schemes, the focus has shifted from stopping pirates (which is pretty much impossible) to generating new "game buyer"s out of second hand / rental gamers.

 

Steam/GoG/D2D does this by using honey and feathers while Ubi seems to be set on using vinegar and hammers. Sure everyone has a different tolerance levels some are fine with 3rd party programs while others rant about basic disc checks, but ham handed strong arm tactics only make the situation worse.

 

And about the pirating for spite thing. Being an anonimus face on the net already brings out the worst in most people. Are you really that naive to believe that if s/he could get away with it, your average Joe, Jane wouldn't stop from hurting the guy/gal/company s/he is angry/furious/pissed with in real life, let alone in the obscurity of the internet?

Edited January 29, 2010 by cronicler

[Gorgon]

Companies are unable to settle for 'good enough' they want to solve the issue. I remember a time when Steam was the worst privacy infringement DRM had to offer. Well, it's also the leading digital distribution system in the industry.

 

Its big flagships like Halflife got cracked because Valve was a prestigeous target, the same reason that Windows will be cracked nomatter how hard it is to do. I suspect this always online thing is also about trying to wedge other things in. Targeted advertising, forcing all players to be part of the inevitable 'online store' function.

 

They aren't doing it just to be stupid, it's all part of a sinister plan.

[Slowtrain]

Companies are unable to settle for 'good enough' they want to solve the issue. I remember a time when Steam was the worst privacy infringement DRM had to offer. Well, it's also the leading digital distribution system in the industry.

 

Its big flagships like Halflife got cracked because Valve was a prestigeous target, the same reason that Windows will be cracked nomatter how hard it is to do. I suspect this always online thing is also about trying to wedge other things in. Targeted advertising, forcing all players to be part of the inevitable 'online store' function.

 

They aren't doing it just to be stupid, it's all part of a sinister plan.

 

 

I don't disagree. I think DRM is much less about piracy than it is about power and control and ultimately money. Publishers don't want games to be a product that you buy once and use as long as you see fit; they want games to be a service that you subscribe to on an ongoing basis and pay for as long as you use the product. It is a much more consistent and exploitable revenue stream.

 

Whether or not that's OK with someone is pretty much a personal choice.

[cronicler]

Solve what?

Look, human kind has been kicking on this planet for how long? 3000 years or so? We still haven't been able to solve the most basic problems (Woman, Food, Woman) for all these times, What makes one so Arrogant to think they can "solve", "put an end" to an issue based on being human.

 

"We" are flawed so all our issues have fundemental flaws too. The best we can do is to find a compromise that no one is truly satisfied with but can accept without creating a feud.

 

Woo me with your attention and gifts and I can overlook your intrusion to my (gaming life). Try to be arrogant and ill rip your head and spit down your neck.

Edited January 29, 2010 by cronicler

[Slowtrain]

If you beat your friends with a baseball bat every time they visit you, then no matter how they like you they're going to stop visiting eventually because their desire to not be hit with a baseball bat will eventually be greater than their desire to visit you.

 

You don't punish the people who already like you and support you. They'll tolerate it for a while BECAUSE they like you and support you, but that tolerance will eventually run out.

 

edit: missing words

Edited January 29, 2010 by Slowtrain

[RPGmasterBoo]

Bugger this for warezbb.

 

*kidding

 

I don't see why some people here ignore obvious arguments against new forms of DRM, and insist on going with the flow, but whatever - that's human nature for you.

 

I won't buy any game with the limited installs, online activation bla bla deal, unless its some dirt cheap thing on Steam. I'm not going to pay 50 euros, a fifth of the average salary here to be hassled and annoyed, for a game thats likely to last 3 days on my hard drive.

Edited January 29, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[213374U]

Besides, all you goody-two-shoes types are missing out the wonderful world of cracktros and keygen soundtracks. A whole different genre in its own right!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb4ytFpc24Y...laynext_from=PL

 

*dances*

[CoM_Solaufein]

I won't be buying any games by them or any that force you to be online to play. I have a gaming computer that has zero networking whatsoever and plan to keep it that way. Instead of sticking it to the pirates they stick it to the consumers who actually buy their games. No wonder pirating is popular.

 

Fighting pirating is as useless as fighting prostitution and the war on drugs. They might as well suck it up and do what they can to please the customer from resorting to pirating or other illegal means.

[Humodour]

PIRACY IS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!

 

There, fixed it for you...

 

Which is theft, what is your point?

 

Nightshape, by the way, is a person who works on games. When the people creating the games tell you piracy is theft, that would seem to be a fairly authoritative person on the matter.

 

Actually, he'd be a person with a vested interest in the situation, so I'd say he'd be about as authoritative or objective as the person doing the downloading.

 

The definition is a legal issue. Media companies (and their employees) shouldn't be defining or making law. That's not how it works, Hurlshot.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Krezack

[Hurlshort]

I don't believe I mentioned anything about Nightshape defining or making the law. That has already been done, it is illegal to pirate software. I am pointing out that Nightshape is a victim when someone does pirate software he has helped developed. It is his work that is being used without proper compensation.

[Humodour]

I don't believe I mentioned anything about Nightshape defining or making the law.

 

You were implying that if Nightshape says downloading copyright content is theft, then we should listen to him because he works on games (he's been hired by someone now has he? Good for him). Not so, and the law doesn't actually define copyright infringement as theft.

[Malcador]

Besides, all you goody-two-shoes types are missing out the wonderful world of cracktros and keygen soundtracks. A whole different genre in its own right!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb4ytFpc24Y...laynext_from=PL

 

*dances*

 

Hah, pretty neat.

[Hurlshort]

I don't believe I mentioned anything about Nightshape defining or making the law.

 

You were implying that if Nightshape says downloading copyright content is theft, then we should listen to him because he works on games (he's been hired by someone now has he? Good for him). Not so, and the law doesn't actually define copyright infringement as theft.

 

Perhaps that is how you roll down under, but in the US we have the NET act. 5 years in prison and $25,000.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NET_Act

 

Of course a geeky kid sitting in his basement downloading a couple games isn't going to be much of a target for law enforcement. The resources it takes to track down every bit of piracy isn't considered worth it, but that does not make it legal or put it in a moral gray area. It's wrong and there is no justifying it.

[Mamoulian War]

I don't believe I mentioned anything about Nightshape defining or making the law.

 

You were implying that if Nightshape says downloading copyright content is theft, then we should listen to him because he works on games (he's been hired by someone now has he? Good for him). Not so, and the law doesn't actually define copyright infringement as theft.

 

Perhaps that is how you roll down under, but in the US we have the NET act. 5 years in prison and $25,000.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NET_Act

 

Of course a geeky kid sitting in his basement downloading a couple games isn't going to be much of a target for law enforcement. The resources it takes to track down every bit of piracy isn't considered worth it, but that does not make it legal or put it in a moral gray area. It's wrong and there is no justifying it.

 

No one is justifying piracy... Why everyone is going berserk, when someone calls the piracy with the true name according to the law? It was always defined as Copyright Infringement... Be it games, music, movies or whatever else what can be copied without removing the original from the rightful owner...