Happy Thanksgiving

[Aristes]

Actually I may owe the assembly an apology. Xian, according to my family is an older way of writing it.

Not Chinese or pirate (what a bunch of doofi) but it's definitely older and, like xmas, has roots in the past. I'd go into boring classical references, but I'm one of those boring old classicists that understand the historical underpinnings of Christianity while still believing in Christ.

 

Here's wikipedia's boring old reference:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas

[Gorth]

I seriously did wonder why he would bring ancient Chinese religions into the discussion

 

Ah well, languages. Love them or hate them, hard to live without them.

 

Reminds me of my early encounters with English speaking cultures.

 

Being starved for a cup of coffee, I went into a small shop at the side of the road (in London) and asked the girl behind the counter for a cup of coffee. After the seemingly mandatory "How are you?", which native English speakers seems so fond of, she got straight to the point: "Flat white or long black" she asked me. I just stared at her and wondered if my accent was that bad. I tried it again a bit slower... A cup of koh...fee... plees? (note my subtle use of Please to hide my exasperation?). She then proceeded to point to a blackboard on the wall with various names of stuff listed under the heading "Coffee". Seriously, I just wanted a cup of coffee, not a pet dammit. Doesn't need fancy names for it. In the end I went for something that sounded like it might have coffee in it and ordered a "moh...kah...". Yeah right, got me something that was more hot chocolate than coffee

 

You learn as long as you live.

[Aristes]

Hey, at least you can find someone to casually converse with you in English. lol Seriously, though, I don't tend to get excited by the term "X-mas" or "Xtian" or the like. I mean, I can take it two ways and I try to take it in the most positive light. Too many Christians have been unwilling or unable to turn the other cheek. That includes me, by the way. ...But that doesn't mean I have to take offense at every slight, even if offense might be intended.

 

As far as the language thing, though, I constantly remind myself how truly excellent some of our fellows are on this board. I mean, you, Gorth, are a good example. So's Gorgon and Kaftan and some of the others who converse fluently in English even though it's not your native tongue. I'm not talking simple stuff, either. You guys have complex and often nuanced conversations with us English speakers. You even manage to use a lot of humor, which is not exactly always easy in a foreign language. To be fair, however, it's easier to find folks with whom to have an English discussion than Attic Greek. Since I don't translate a lot of classical works these days, my Greek and Latin is just getting horrible. Wellllll, my Latin always was, but it's getting worse!

[TheHarlequin]

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you fellow Americans out there!

 

...And a happy day to folks from other countries. We'll try to enjoy a good meal and toast you also for the hell of it!

 

Indeed. Wonderful holiday built upon the decimation and exploitation of the native american peoples... ermm wait..

 

Thanks for ruining a thread where folks were expressing their thanks for one another. What a ray of sunshine!

 

So you rather we forget and just sweep under the rug what we did the native americans. Because histroy shows forgetting/covering over your past (mistakes or otherwise) always works out when moving forward... Just because you wish to look the other way does not make the facts any less. Sorry to be the stick in the mud, but I call it like I see it. Appologizes if they shatters your little bubble of this holiday nothing more then singing songs holding hands. Perhaps if you were like me and worked with a tribe and see the ills first hand you'd have a better appreciation then your tunnel vision, sweep under the rug attitude.

Edited November 30, 2009 by TheHarlequin

[TheHarlequin]

Relabelling christian as 'xian', and America as 'amerika' = fail, IMO.

 

I am not 'Relabelling' anything. Its the standard abbr thats been used since at least the 1600s by xians themselves. Foot.. meet mouth..

[TheHarlequin]

Is it just me or is Harlequin in a grump lately?

 

He

Edited November 30, 2009 by TheHarlequin

[alanschu]

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you fellow Americans out there!

 

...And a happy day to folks from other countries. We'll try to enjoy a good meal and toast you also for the hell of it!

 

Indeed. Wonderful holiday built upon the decimation and exploitation of the native american peoples... ermm wait..

 

Thanks for ruining a thread where folks were expressing their thanks for one another. What a ray of sunshine!

 

So you rather we forget and just sweep under the rug what we did the native americans. Because histroy shows forgetting/covering over your past (mistakes or otherwise) always works out when moving forward... Just because you wish to look the other way does not make the facts any less. Sorry to be the stick in the mud, but I call it like I see it. Appologizes if they shatters your little bubble of this holiday nothing more then singing songs holding hands. Perhaps if you were like me and worked with a tribe and see the ills first hand you'd have a better appreciation then your tunnel vision, sweep under the rug attitude.

 

You didn't call it like you see it, because Thanksgiving is not at all built upon the decimation and exploitation of American peoples. Your commentary is irrelevant with respect to Thanksgiving, which is literally just giving thanks to God for bountiful harvests. Even if you include the "first thanksgiving," it most definitely wasn't built upon the exploitation and decimation of native american peoples.

 

Your commentary was to start ****, but based purely on grasping at straws.

[TheHarlequin]

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you fellow Americans out there!

 

...And a happy day to folks from other countries. We'll try to enjoy a good meal and toast you also for the hell of it!

 

Indeed. Wonderful holiday built upon the decimation and exploitation of the native american peoples... ermm wait..

 

Thanks for ruining a thread where folks were expressing their thanks for one another. What a ray of sunshine!

 

So you rather we forget and just sweep under the rug what we did the native americans. Because histroy shows forgetting/covering over your past (mistakes or otherwise) always works out when moving forward... Just because you wish to look the other way does not make the facts any less. Sorry to be the stick in the mud, but I call it like I see it. Appologizes if they shatters your little bubble of this holiday nothing more then singing songs holding hands. Perhaps if you were like me and worked with a tribe and see the ills first hand you'd have a better appreciation then your tunnel vision, sweep under the rug attitude.

 

You didn't call it like you see it, because Thanksgiving is not at all built upon the decimation and exploitation of American peoples. Your commentary is irrelevant with respect to Thanksgiving, which is literally just giving thanks to God for bountiful harvests. Even if you include the "first thanksgiving," it most definitely wasn't built upon the exploitation and decimation of native american peoples.

 

Your commentary was to start ****, but based purely on grasping at straws.

 

a-hem

 

Please don't make thanksgiving a religious event. Has nothing to do at its core with your xian god. Thats a more recent coat of paint because xians just have to toss their god into everything it seems *shrugs*. 'Giving thanks' can have many meanings does not mean it has to involve any higher power. One can be a atheist for example and be thankful for what they have. So by your view if you are not a xian you can't celebrate/enjoy that holiday?

 

That said, while no the holiday does not have anything, directly, to do with what the colonists/country did to the natives it was however a slap in their face none the less. The natives pulled the colonists arse out of the fire so they wouldn't starve in the winter and what did they get in return for THEIR 'thanks'? Their lands confiscated, plague infected blankets and bring pushed to the brink of obliteration and loosing their culture. So yes you are technically correct. However indirectly it is assoicated, the natives in hindsight should have let them starve. *shrugs* Sadly they really got the meaning of no good deed goes unpunished...

[Walsingham]

I though the plague infested blankets were given them by the British army? That's hardly the fault of the yankees.

[Enoch]

Pretty much every culture on the planet has some kind of festival that celebrates the conclusion of the seasonal harvest (most have religious overtones, but not all). Really, apart from societies that never developed large-scale agriculture, or that occupied regions without meaningful seasonal variation, it's a pretty universal thing.

 

In the States, those various holidays have been amalgated into the Thanksgiving holiday, and has taken on the symbology of a legend from the early English colonization of the land. Sure, everybody knows that the history progressing from that point with regard to realtions between the colonists and natives was quite ugly, but that doesn't change the fact that the legend in itself is a lovely little parable about cooperation across the boundaries of culture and tribe.

[Hurlshort]

Harlequin, I apologize for enjoying Thanksgiving with my family and friends. When I broke the wishbone with my daughter, I should have explained that it represents the hundreds of broken treaties with the American Indians. On Christmas, I will sit her down and explain that Santa is just a made up character to push the capitalistic greed and consumerism of our nation. She is almost three, it is time for her to wake up and see the lies perpetuated by the Xians. Thank you for bursting my bubble, you've done a great service and we all have been enriched by your knowledge and wealth of experience in the world.

[TheHarlequin]

Harlequin, I apologize for enjoying Thanksgiving with my family and friends. When I broke the wishbone with my daughter, I should have explained that it represents the hundreds of broken treaties with the American Indians. On Christmas, I will sit her down and explain that Santa is just a made up character to push the capitalistic greed and consumerism of our nation. She is almost three, it is time for her to wake up and see the lies perpetuated by the Xians. Thank you for bursting my bubble, you've done a great service and we all have been enriched by your knowledge and wealth of experience in the world.

 

This is like volos 'I like pie' reply. About as much substance as such.

 

Who said not to enjoy thanksgiving? I felt I implied clearly lets not also forget the backs of the people this holiday, indirectly, represent. You are taking what I said to the extreem and the fact is you know you are. Making implications I never said and putting words in my mouth. If you want to live in a candy coated bubble and never acknowledge anything but while light, love and bunnies then all the power to you. *shugs* Ignorance is bliss.

[GreasyDogMeat]

There is a means of changing society by convincing it that it should feel guilty and ashamed for everything and that all of it's holidays and people of note were horrible things. The society then becomes a big blubbering pile of guilt and self hatred.

 

When I hear the whining though, I just whip out my mini violin and go eat an extra serving of stuffing.

 

Stuffing is the best part of Thanksgiving... and cranberries.

[Walsingham]

Look, I tell you what, on behalf of the British people* I am going to accept responsibility for turning on the Natives. Mel Gibson can make another of his fantasy epics like Braveheart and the Patriot about it, call it Stuffing or something, and we can all move on and you can have a clean holiday. Consider it a gift.

 

 

 

*I have more right to act in this capacity than Gordon Brown, IMO.

[Hurlshort]

Harlequin, I apologize for enjoying Thanksgiving with my family and friends. When I broke the wishbone with my daughter, I should have explained that it represents the hundreds of broken treaties with the American Indians. On Christmas, I will sit her down and explain that Santa is just a made up character to push the capitalistic greed and consumerism of our nation. She is almost three, it is time for her to wake up and see the lies perpetuated by the Xians. Thank you for bursting my bubble, you've done a great service and we all have been enriched by your knowledge and wealth of experience in the world.

 

This is like volos 'I like pie' reply. About as much substance as such.

 

Who said not to enjoy thanksgiving? I felt I implied clearly lets not also forget the backs of the people this holiday, indirectly, represent. You are taking what I said to the extreem and the fact is you know you are. Making implications I never said and putting words in my mouth. If you want to live in a candy coated bubble and never acknowledge anything but while light, love and bunnies then all the power to you. *shugs* Ignorance is bliss.

 

I'm just surprised at how committed you are to riding the bitter train.

 

It's also odd that in your Samhain celebration post, you failed to mention the prevalence of human and animal sacrifices in druidic and pagan religions. It's just the kind of hypocrisy that has forced me to change my opinion of you.

[alanschu]

Please don't make thanksgiving a religious event. Has nothing to do at its core with your xian god.

 

I'm certainly not a Christian (or even religious), so it has nothing to do with my "xian god." Thanksgiving in North America certainly has religious roots though, and it evolved into a more secular holiday. According to Wikipedia, the British church is still actively involved in the holiday, with it being both a religious festival as well as a secular holiday. They also acknowledge that its roots are the harvest festival, which were also celebrated by pagans in the area.

 

 

Thats a more recent coat of paint because xians just have to toss their god into everything it seems *shrugs*. 'Giving thanks' can have many meanings does not mean it has to involve any higher power. One can be a atheist for example and be thankful for what they have. So by your view if you are not a xian you can't celebrate/enjoy that holiday?

 

Yes I know, I never said otherwise. But we're discussing the United States history of Thanksgiving, are we not? Of course, all I had to do is add in one little three letter word and you get your panties in a bunch, and get confused to the issue being discussed. The history of Thanksgiving in the United States, and in particular the early colonists definitely has its roots in the religion of the settlers. It's not a bad thing, many people were religious at the time, so they thanked God for it. If they were like me, they'd just be thankful for the good harvest for being a good harvest, without the need to thank anyone in particular (except perhaps nature). Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I'll refuse to acknowledge the historical facts regarding the European settler's thanksgiving (or harvest festival, if you will) practices of the time.

 

 

That said, while no the holiday does not have anything, directly, to do with what the colonists/country did to the natives it was however a slap in their face none the less. The natives pulled the colonists arse out of the fire so they wouldn't starve in the winter and what did they get in return for THEIR 'thanks'? Their lands confiscated, plague infected blankets and bring pushed to the brink of obliteration and loosing their culture. So yes you are technically correct. However indirectly it is assoicated, the natives in hindsight should have let them starve. *shrugs* Sadly they really got the meaning of no good deed goes unpunished...

 

The first thanksgiving wasn't about the natives saving the colonists during the harsh first winter. In fact, formal contact with the natives didn't occur until spring the following year, after the first winter kicked their ass. Of course you already knew this, since you're all up on doing us all a favor and keeping us informed about our history for our greater good and all that...

[Walsingham]

Now I'm annoyed that my own gift to the yankees has been rebuffed.

[Hurlshort]

Now I'm annoyed that my own gift to the yankees has been rebuffed.

 

I'm happy to accept, but there is a stipulation that we be allowed to build an Indian casino on your land to make up for the transgression.

[Dark_Raven]

There is a means of changing society by convincing it that it should feel guilty and ashamed for everything and that all of it's holidays and people of note were horrible things. The society then becomes a big blubbering pile of guilt and self hatred.

 

When I hear the whining though, I just whip out my mini violin and go eat an extra serving of stuffing.

 

Stuffing is the best part of Thanksgiving... and cranberries.

Mash potatoes and gravy. And whip cream on pumpkin pie, life doesn't get any better.

[Walsingham]

Now I'm annoyed that my own gift to the yankees has been rebuffed.

 

I'm happy to accept, but there is a stipulation that we be allowed to build an Indian casino on your land to make up for the transgression.

 

Deal. But we get to have the leftovers of that pie and cream. Sounds delicious.

[TheHarlequin]

Harlequin, I apologize for enjoying Thanksgiving with my family and friends. When I broke the wishbone with my daughter, I should have explained that it represents the hundreds of broken treaties with the American Indians. On Christmas, I will sit her down and explain that Santa is just a made up character to push the capitalistic greed and consumerism of our nation. She is almost three, it is time for her to wake up and see the lies perpetuated by the Xians. Thank you for bursting my bubble, you've done a great service and we all have been enriched by your knowledge and wealth of experience in the world.

 

This is like volos 'I like pie' reply. About as much substance as such.

 

Who said not to enjoy thanksgiving? I felt I implied clearly lets not also forget the backs of the people this holiday, indirectly, represent. You are taking what I said to the extreem and the fact is you know you are. Making implications I never said and putting words in my mouth. If you want to live in a candy coated bubble and never acknowledge anything but while light, love and bunnies then all the power to you. *shugs* Ignorance is bliss.

 

I'm just surprised at how committed you are to riding the bitter train.

 

It's also odd that in your Samhain celebration post, you failed to mention the prevalence of human and animal sacrifices in druidic and pagan religions. It's just the kind of hypocrisy that has forced me to change my opinion of you.

 

Not bitter at all. Again you are confusing a negative emotion to a realistist/one who likes to understand where something comes from. The whys, hows, whos. Not just the ignorant surface knowledge some people are content with because it goes down easier. If you want to get into a discussion of the dark side of the modern pagan movement I'll be happy to discuss them. *shrugs* I have many times in face to face discussions with folks interested about wicca/paganism talked about the good, bad and ugly. In fact I even have said more then once considering how the pagans treated the xians for the first few centuries this may be karma biting us in the arse. The fact we are just now making a comeback in substantial numbers. Since we killed xians for sport for example.

 

As for human sacrifice and samhain. I assume you are talking about the celtics or/and druids. Its not certain humans were sacrificed, as least nothing beyond circumstantial data has been uncovered thus far. At least last I read about the topic. Since the druids and celts didnt write much at all we only have 3rd party accounts of them and their culture. Mostly romans and their records of the celts have been considered suspect (biased, exagerated) by the modern historical community.

[TheHarlequin]

According to Wikipedia...

 

Enough said.

[Purkake]

You could at least first see if the source has been cited before blindly bashing wikipedia...

[Deadly_Nightshade]

According to Wikipedia...

 

Enough said.

 

This link has a good summery of some of the arguments for and against the theory - although it is from 1998 and thus a bit old.

[alanschu]

You could at least first see if the source has been cited before blindly bashing wikipedia...

 

Here is a wikipedia link to the people that died the first winter in Plymouth. My original reading had me reading at this page.

 

This link shows a timeline of the Plymouth plantation. The wikipedia link states that March 16, 1621 was when the first formal contact with the natives was made. The most recent link states that March 22 was when a peace treaty was signed.

 

 

However....

 

My "according to wikipedia" comment specifically was about how the Church is still involved in Thanksgiving in the United Kingdom. According to this page, says it is referred to as Harvest Festival, and originated "in churches in the year 1843." The link also states "The celebrations continue till date in the rural communities. Children sing hymns, and gift fruits and vegetables."

 

(Note, it says "The celebrations continue till date" which doesn't make much sense to me. I interpret this as being "to date," but perhaps some of our favorite Brits could enlighten us of any potential bizarro slang they may have )

Edited December 2, 2009 by alanschu